Rebecca Long-Bailey sacked (13 Viewers)

[Nick]

that quote is a bit ambiguous to be honest, I think the Israelis are denying the kneeling on the neck technique was taught at these seminars not that police from the US go there for training.
For what it's worth I don't believe the Israelis denial about the neck technique.

Exactly, especially when it's pretty obvious their police do it too.

Still, nobody has said that exact copper was trained by Israelis and that he was sent to kill black people by the Jews.

If Israel don't want to be linked to police brutality in the US, stop training police with moves that can mess people up.

 

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[clint van damme]

Ok, assuming that it is the case. US police aren’t learning this from Israeli secret services - they’re being trained by their own police departments.

That still doesn’t account for similar instances of police brutality in US that predates these kind of seminars/conferences delivered to US police.

Derrick Chauvin is to blame what happened. Whether or not he received training from Israeli secret services. No trained personnel would recommend using this technique in the neck of someone for 8+ minutes.

To bring Israel in this discussion is a red herring, from just about every angle of looking at it.

I've just posted that in my view no matter what they're taught by the Israelis ultimately the US authorities have to take responsibility for the actions of their officers.
i agree Derek Chauvin is to blame but maybe he'd have though twice if police officers weren't allowed to kill with impunity in the States.

 

[clint van damme]

Of course, that's why it's weird how people get upset about US police going to Israel to be taught some of their moves which can cause damage.

Both the US and Israel have the choice, it ends up with some police who are properly trained and wannabe dickheads who see it on youtube.

the US police do these seminars in the UK as well. If you could find countless numbers of pictures of UK police kneeling on peoples necks than maybe people might link it with the training here but you can't, but you can find plenty of the Israelis doing it, but again, the US has to be responsible for its won actions.

 

[Grendel]

It is a direct quote and the original article I shared with you had the excerpt where Maxine Peake made the claim that the move was learnt from Israeli special services.

Here is the unedited, original quote, from the original Independent article which RLB shared. I’ve attached a screenshot.

Link: Maxine Peake: ‘People who couldn’t vote Labour because of Jeremy Corbyn? They voted Tory as far as I’m concerned’

Jesus Christ well what a surprise

 

[chiefdave]

Ok, assuming that it is the case. US police aren’t learning this from Israeli secret services - they’re being trained by their own police departments.

Minneapolis Police Department allows neck restraints, but only officers who have received specific training in how to correctly carry them out are permitted to do so. Additionally, a police trainer for the state of Minnesota has confirmed the state does not teach the "knee on neck" technique.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Minneapolis Police Department allows neck restraints, but only officers who have received specific training in how to correctly carry them out are permitted to do so. Additionally, a police trainer for the state of Minnesota has confirmed the state does not teach the "knee on neck" technique.

Having worked in security at uni, I can tell you that you get taught ‘by the book’ restraints and methods of dealing with conflict. Which, for the large part, work well and are effective.

There are times, that this training goes out of the window. Like I said in a prior comment, I’ve seen people do similar restraints to people who are untrained in any martial arts.

I’ve learned a bit of Judo in my time, if I was go out and use a technique that killed someone, the instructor is not to blame.

The bottom line is: we don’t know what training the officer had. Therefore, bringing Israeli secret services into it is a total red herring.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Jesus Christ well what a surprise

I seen this shared on FB, rolled my eyes and scrolled passed it before the news broke RLB had been sacked.

What’s really pushed me away from Corbyn, RLB and the left of the party is their seeming lack of awareness of politics and power (as a concept) outside of their echo chamber.

 

[Grendel]

I seen this shared on FB, rolled my eyes and scrolled passed it before the news broke RLB had been sacked.

What’s really pushed me away from Corbyn, RLB and the left of the party is their seeming lack of awareness of politics and power (as a concept) outside of their echo chamber.

To be honest I’ve never heard of her but now I’ve looked at her background she’s clearly a racist, bat shit crazy and the fact that a senior member of the Labour Party is retweeting her obscene drivel shows he actually was 100% right to sack her

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Replacement announced Kate Green appointed as shadow education secretary

 

[TomRad85]

To be honest I’ve never heard of her but now I’ve looked at her background she’s clearly a racist, bat shit crazy and the fact that a senior member of the Labour Party is retweeting her obscene drivel shows he actually was 100% right to sack her

Yep. I think the fact RLB described Peake as a 'diamond' is good enough reason for Starmer to clear her out tbh.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

 

[Grendel]

Yep. I think the fact RLB described Peake as a 'diamond' is good enough reason for Starmer to clear her out tbh.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

She’s a deranged lunatic - still as her resume says she’s best known for her role in the edgy sitcom Dinnerladies I would guess the clamber to get her boycotted are not really required

 

[chiefdave]

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Jonathan Pie is a gem.

For me, the re-reading Orwell’s ‘1984’ and other text has never felt more relevant, or important at this moment in time.

 

[JimmyHillsbeard]

Jonathan Pie is a gem.

For me, the re-reading Orwell’s ‘1984’ and other text has never felt more relevant, or important at this moment in time.

Is this show still broadcast on Russia Today?

As for what RBL did wrong...

1) she publicly endorsed an interview with an activist who explicitly said that the killing of George Floyd in the USA was explicitly tied to the military training provided by the state of Israel. Criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic unless you are saying that Israel has no right to exist. It turns out that Israel do provide training for police forces from the USA and many other countries but so so many other nations. There’s no suggestion that any of the Minnesota police involved in the killing of Floyd visited Israel or received training from Israeli forces. Moreover there are plenty of photos of law officers kneeling on the neck of victims the world over - some of which predate the institution of the state of Israel.

2) this particular fiction however does tap into a deeply anti-Semitic trope - that the Jews/Israeli state are responsible for many of the bad things in the world. You’ve likely heard the stories of Jewish workers in the World Trade Center getting messages not to go to work on September 11, that type of thing. Or how recessions were caused by certain banks or a particular family of bankers who control the world elite. They also cause pandemics and try to control the world’s development through secret cabals and clubs and vaccines and technology etc etc etc. This trope suggests that Jews and the state of Israel are directly responsible for the systemic racism that has characterised the US incarceral state for centuries. Again before Israel was a thing. it offers a cheap (and nasty) explanation for systemic racism that lets some obvious candidates off the hook while blaming some very usual suspects.

3) when this was highlighted to RLB she refused to take down the endorsement. RLB (who alongside Richard Burgon refused to sign up to the Intenrariknally recognised definition of anti-semitism during the labour leadership campaign) said she didn’t endorse everything in the article which she said was a clarion call for Labour unity. This is tosh, Maxine Peake actually said in the same article - Anyone who didn’t vote for Labour because of Corbyn basically voted Tory and should be ashamed of themselves (I’ve only added the last few words).

4) finally the labour leadership needs to keep the pressure up on the Tories. They’ve performed weakest in recent weeks on their confusion on whether labour want schools to reopen - and RLB as Educ Shadow might take some responsibility there. Also they want to keep asking why Robert Jenrick hasn’t been sacked. RLB would have been the “what about” answer to any question on this.


so TLDR
She endorsed a particularly stupid article that wasn’t true and repeated tropes that were sensitive for Labour coming out of the Corbyn years.
She refused the opportunity to take down her tweet. And doubled down on what the interview said and in doing so highlighted another area of controversy.
She was doing a pretty poor job as Shadow Educ Sec and got caught up in other politics too.

 

[shmmeee]

They're not bringing 'jews' into anything. Israel is not representative of all 'jews'.

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Take it up with the Jewish groups, they argue randomly bringing in Israel is because it’s a Jewish country. Plays into the Israel control the world conspiracy.

 

[clint van damme]

Take it up with the Jewish groups, they argue randomly bringing in Israel is because it’s a Jewish country. Plays into the Israel control the world conspiracy.

Some Jewish groups don't. You're lumping them all in together, which I think is what people are arguing against!
Not trying to be a smart arse just pointing out what a minefield it is.

 

[shmmeee]

Found this really interesting.



Both in terms of how close Labour members and councillors are to each other and MPs to voters. But also how far right Tory MPs are in comparison to the rest of the party and especially the voters. You can’t hold a coalition like that together either the MPs or the voters will get sick of it.

 

[JimmyHillsbeard]

Found this really interesting.



Both in terms of how close Labour members and councillors are to each other and MPs to voters. But also how far right Tory MPs are in comparison to the rest of the party and especially the voters. You can’t hold a coalition like that together either the MPs or the voters will get sick of it.

look at the graph for MPs on social values, Labour MPs are v much more socially-liberal than the typical Labour voter.

 

[JimmyHillsbeard]

look at the graph for MPs on social values, Labour MPs are v much more socially-liberal than the typical Labour voter.

 

[shmmeee]

look at the graph for MPs on social values, Labour MPs are v much more socially-liberal than the typical Labour voter.

Oooohhh. I missed that. Not surprising. Labour in 2019 were by far the most socially liberal party in the U.K., even more so than the Lib Dem’s.

Fascinating that the major parties each have their own issues with bridging the gap, one socially and one economically.

I maintain that a soft left socially conservative party would clean up here. I think that’s what Cummings was hoping to turn the Tories into but their members wouldn’t stand for the economics just as Labours wouldn’t stand for the social conservatism if they tried it.

New party anyone?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Oooohhh. I missed that. Not surprising. Labour in 2019 were by far the most socially liberal party in the U.K., even more so than the Lib Dem’s.

Fascinating that the major parties each have their own issues with bridging the gap, one socially and one economically.

I maintain that a soft left socially conservative party would clean up here. I think that’s what Cummings was hoping to turn the Tories into but their members wouldn’t stand for the economics just as Labours wouldn’t stand for the social conservatism if they tried it.

New party anyone?

I guess it depends what that socially conservative platform would look like. If it means specific immigration controls then fine, but I’m not sure what else is included in that.

 

[Grendel]

Oooohhh. I missed that. Not surprising. Labour in 2019 were by far the most socially liberal party in the U.K., even more so than the Lib Dem’s.

Fascinating that the major parties each have their own issues with bridging the gap, one socially and one economically.

I maintain that a soft left socially conservative party would clean up here. I think that’s what Cummings was hoping to turn the Tories into but their members wouldn’t stand for the economics just as Labours wouldn’t stand for the social conservatism if they tried it.

New party anyone?

A new party is required but essentially a pipe dream

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Oooohhh. I missed that. Not surprising. Labour in 2019 were by far the most socially liberal party in the U.K., even more so than the Lib Dem’s.

Fascinating that the major parties each have their own issues with bridging the gap, one socially and one economically.

I maintain that a soft left socially conservative party would clean up here. I think that’s what Cummings was hoping to turn the Tories into but their members wouldn’t stand for the economics just as Labours wouldn’t stand for the social conservatism if they tried it.

New party anyone?

Earlier in the thread, I spoke of Blue Labour...

These graphs suggest that adopting more socially conservative, Keynesian centre-left economics could really be a vote winner and route back to power for Labour.

 

[shmmeee]

I guess it depends what that socially conservative platform would look like. If it means specific immigration controls then fine, but I’m not sure what else is included in that.

The old saying about the “average British voter” is that they want a “hang the pedos and fund the NHS Party”, to break that down it’s basically: immigration controls, tough sentencing on crime with a well funded police force, tough on anti social behaviour, tough on benefit cheats, and probably these days “less woke bollocks”. Also probably not hammering drivers though I think maybe less so these days as people generally get the need for climate action.

Think Blair’s “tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime”, think ASBOs, Browns “British jobs for British people”, FB memes about homeless veterans and OAPs needing looking after ahead of recent immigrants. Your average Sun campaign “back our boys and crush the criminal scum” type stuff.

Blair was pretty close socially but IMO further right than most want economically. I think he could’ve been a lot more left wing but in hindsight he was it was just he paid for it in a right wing way (PFI) rather than sensible left wing economics.

The left however have put themselves in a corner where anything short of open borders, close the prisons and ACAB makes you right wing filth and that’s a million miles away from your average voter.

 

[Grendel]

Shmmeee has woken up this morning and morphed into Peter Hitchens - we’ll sort of

PETER HITCHENS: We need a genuinely new political party, not a rabble of rebranded Blairites | Daily Mail Online

 

[Ian1779]

A new party is required but essentially a pipe dream

Would you advocate a change in the voting system to something else if it was possible to change?

 

[shmmeee]

A new party is required but essentially a pipe dream

Yeah I agree. I think that Cummings has done to the Tories and what Blair did to Labour are the closest we’ve got. Ironically I think both misunderstand why they’re popular. Blair thought it was his right wing “sensible” economics and Cummings the culture war stuff, but really for Blair it was the approach to crime and national identity and for Johnson it was increased infrastructure spending. They already had the other side and if anything going harder there probably lost them support.

 

[shmmeee]

Shmmeee has woken up this morning and morphed into Peter Hitchens - we’ll sort of

PETER HITCHENS: We need a genuinely new political party, not a rabble of rebranded Blairites | Daily Mail Online

Ha!

It’s not even really my politics, I just care more about the economics than the social stuff and think democracies should represent the electorate. I also think both parties membership is weird. Labours socially and Tories economically and the first one to find a way to keep their members/MPs in a box away from the public wins.

 

[shmmeee]

Would you advocate a change in the voting system to something else if it was possible to change?

I think a change to something like PR would be the worse thing TBH. You’ll end up with more smaller more extreme parties and less compromise moderate positions I’d imagine.

Politics is about managing competing rights claims and compromise, I think the system should represent that and PR is a call from activists who want to keep their purity and not compromise with the electorate.

 

[Grendel]

Would you advocate a change in the voting system to something else if it was possible to change?

No. It would worsen things

I know nothing about German politics but I get the impression it works as there are natural alliances who are really the same conservative type parties

This does not exist here and the composition would be very different. It would I assume eliminate sturgeons lot at Westminster which would be good but the parties aren’t allies and forming alliances and coalitions will always fail

Unfortunately the system we have is failing partly as the rise of the SNP has made it virtually impossible to get a majority Labour Party in government - that is of course an issue but we would end up more like Italy than Germany I’d suspect if we went that way

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Would you advocate a change in the voting system to something else if it was possible to change?

I disagree with proportional representation (PR).

With first first past the post (FPTP), the unequal outcomes leads to majoritarian governments. To use 2019 as an example, whilst I’m against Brexit, the electorate voted Conservative and to ‘Get Brexit Done’. The large Tory majority has broke the parliamentary paralysis and the country and get on with delivering on a divisive policy that was causing a lot of constitutional strain on the UK.

With PR, the result of this election would be a lot more closer in terms of seats. You’d have more Lab-Green-Lib Dems in Parliament, less SNP- Plaid Cymru MPs. More Brexit Party MPs, less Tory MPs.

I’m not sure what the precise make up of Parliament would be, but it would probably have made Brexit drag on even longer.

In Germany, they’ve had grand coalitions for most of this decade because neither the CDU or SDP can find a coalition partner that is palatable to them since the collapse of the FDP (their Lib Dems). That’s not good for democracy either.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

No. It would worsen things

I know nothing about German politics but I get the impression it works as there are natural alliances who are really the same conservative type parties

This does not exist here and the composition would be very different. It would I assume eliminate sturgeons lot at Westminster which would be good but the parties aren’t allies and forming alliances and coalitions will always fail

Unfortunately the system we have is failing partly as the rise of the SNP has made it virtually impossible to get a majority Labour Party in government - that is of course an issue but we would end up more like Italy than Germany I’d suspect if we went that way

See my last post for Germany. PR worked well when the FDP played king maker.

The 2010s seen them lose a lot of votes and have ceased to have enough influence to form a government with the CDU or SDP. Now, with the rise of AfD (Alternative for Deutschland) and Die Linke (an offshoot of the old East German communists), this has forced the CDU and SDP to form grand coalitions.

A grand coalition makes sense at a time of crisis, but not in a period of relative prosperity for Germany.

In short, whilst our system is unfair, I’d much rather us be able to govern effectively. In our history, only the 2010s has proven to be an anomaly.

 

[shmmeee]

No. It would worsen things

I know nothing about German politics but I get the impression it works as there are natural alliances who are really the same conservative type parties

This does not exist here and the composition would be very different. It would I assume eliminate sturgeons lot at Westminster which would be good but the parties aren’t allies and forming alliances and coalitions will always fail

Unfortunately the system we have is failing partly as the rise of the SNP has made it virtually impossible to get a majority Labour Party in government - that is of course an issue but we would end up more like Italy than Germany I’d suspect if we went that way

Labour would’ve won without Scotland in 97, 2001 and 2005.

It’s not the SNP making Labour unelectable.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Labour would’ve won without Scotland in 97, 2001 and 2005.

It’s not the SNP making Labour unelectable.

Agreed.

But, the constant threat of an SNP-Labour coalition does have an impact on the electorate, particularly in 2015.

The party needs a breakthrough somewhere, at the minute it’s just haemorrhaging votes in its traditional safe seats.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Labour would’ve won without Scotland in 97, 2001 and 2005.

It’s not the SNP making Labour unelectable.

Would make it easier though particularly as in the years you refer to the Tories were a non entity there as opposed to being the opposition party they are now.