Refugees welcome? (6 Viewers)

martcov · Sep 18, 2015

Nick said:
Surely the pattern here is that people shouldn't be popping up shouting "come here" when it is quite obvious there is going to be massive numbers and they won't be able to cope

Wouldn't the best thing for them to be put into camps and then processed accordingly? It may not be nice being in a camp for a few weeks but it surely beats walking across countries and it guarantees safety?
Then if countries did as Britain did and take people who need help from the camps directly, safely there is no risk of people drowning etc?

they are in camps in Germany and their claims are being processed, probably under much better conditions than in a country neighbouring a war zone.

it is not so nice in a camp. The people are in crowded conditions sharing small rooms with strangers ( if they are lucky - many live in school gyms or church halls ) but at least they have peace, basic education for the kids, sanitary conditions ( not always good ) and basic health care. No sign of free money and free houses for most of them.

waiting to see if you are one of the few lucky ones to be taken in by Britain is like doing the lottery - that is why they are risking their lives.

Broken Hearted Sky Blue · Sep 18, 2015

martcov said:
not not everywhere or not enough. Saw volunteers complaining about it on TV. Don't remember which border crossing to Hungary that was. Maybe your information refers to incoming and not outgoing from Serbia.

Not enough? A country whose infrastructure was destroyed by bombing mass unemployment no money but still look after these people. The numbers I quoted are the numbers entering Serbia,and the country you live in the richest country in Europe shit themselves after letting in a couple of days worth and said we can't cope with the numbers priceless

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SIR ERNIE · Sep 18, 2015

Nick said:
I think he meant for Europe though not just the UK?

Correct Nick. At least you're awake.

torchomatic · Sep 18, 2015

Ah yes, I can see he's a concerned European.

Nick said:
I think he meant for Europe though not just the UK?

SIR ERNIE · Sep 18, 2015

torchomatic said:
Ah yes, I can see he's a concerned European.

Do you have any considered thoughts on this or will you just continue with your immature sniping?

Or do you still stand by your earlier post that "This is nothing to do with economic migrants."

skybluedan · Sep 18, 2015

As I said first off let the fit ones in, then do some like X factor thing to see if they got a talent if not bye
could just see a one armed Syrian pensioner spinning on his back or something ,make great TV

Grendel · Sep 18, 2015

SIR ERNIE said:
Do you have any considered thoughts on this or will you just continue with your immature sniping?

Or do you still stand by your earlier post that "This is nothing to do with economic migrants."

It isn't about economic migrants.

There is a disturbing undertone to your posts.

torchomatic · Sep 18, 2015

Considered thoughts? Yes, I am considerate and have empathy with all those poor people including women, elderly and children who have displaced by war. I don't have the "send 'em back" attitude of you and others. Thankfully.

SIR ERNIE said:
Do you have any considered thoughts on this or will you just continue with your immature sniping?

Or do you still stand by your earlier post that "This is nothing to do with economic migrants."

armybike · Sep 18, 2015

torchomatic said:
Considered thoughts? Yes, I am considerate and have empathy with all those poor people including women, elderly and children who have displaced by war. I don't have the "send 'em back" attitude of you and others. Thankfully.

Huh, I thought it was only males between 18 and 25 who we're getting out of Syria and kicking off with everyone left, right and centre until they're given the generous benefits/entitlements they think they deserve..................?

torchomatic · Sep 18, 2015

Actually, you're right. They walk hundreds of miles risking their lives and the lives of their children for £35pw JSA. TBF though all those hundreds of miles must fly by as they're constantly on their iPads and smart phones.

armybike said:
Huh, I thought it was only males between 18 and 25 who we're getting out of Syria and kicking off with everyone left, right and centre until they're given the generous benefits/entitlements they think they deserve..................?

armybike · Sep 18, 2015

torchomatic said:
Actually, you're right. They walk hundreds of miles risking their lives and the lives of their children for £35pw JSA. TBF though all those hundreds of miles must fly by as they're constantly on their iPads and smart phones.

Plus all their piles of designer clothes must keep them warm whilst trying to get some kip out in the elements.

torchomatic · Sep 18, 2015

They do sleep in quite comfortable tents though. unfortunately due to all the weaponry they carry (with them being terrorists and all) they can't carry tent poles, so they use their rifles and sub machines guns to make the frame then weigh the pure silk canvas down with their hand grenades. Life of Riley.

armybike said:
Plus all their piles of designer clothes must keep them warm whilst trying to get some kip out in the elements.

SIR ERNIE · Sep 18, 2015

torchomatic said:
Considered thoughts? Yes, I am considerate and have empathy with all those poor people including women, elderly and children who have displaced by war. I don't have the "send 'em back" attitude of you and others. Thankfully.

You see, that's precisely the 'holier than thou' retort that people like you throw at anyone who has a different opinion to you.

You don't have a monopoly on compassion and you are not more considerate or empathetic than I am towards all those poor people including women, elderly and children who have been displaced by war.

The fact is that the migration crisis in Europe is rapidly developing into something much bigger than granting refugee status to desperate people. Don't you see that?

Latest estimates are that only 30% of those people illegally entering Europe are actually from Syria.

The majority of those heading to Germany are going there simply because they'd prefer to live there. That's called migration and it's now a chaotic mess.

It's too late to stop it now, so "send em back" as you put it, is not an option. Borders are being closed but that'll have no effect either.

The point I have been making is that Germany's offer to take "800,000 this year" and then "500,000 per year for several years" was recklessly irresponsible and directly resulted in mobilising masses of migrants. I have also said that Hungary's stance is understandable and Cameron's policy of supporting the refugee camps and taking 20,000 refugees from those camps is the right one.

torchomatic · Sep 18, 2015

I don't find tear-gassing women, children and babies "understandable". Admittedly, I'm a bit old fashioned about stuff like that.

Nick · Sep 18, 2015

torchomatic said:
I don't find tear-gassing women, children and babies "understandable". Admittedly, I'm a bit old fashioned about stuff like that.

You probably wouldn't use any of those as a human shield though?

SIR ERNIE · Sep 18, 2015

torchomatic said:
I don't find tear-gassing women, children and babies "understandable". Admittedly, I'm a bit old fashioned about stuff like that.

Yes those Hungarians went out of their way to find women, children and babies to aim at. Without any warning. That's what those Hungarians do.

duffer · Sep 18, 2015

SIR ERNIE said:
Yes those Hungarians went out of their way to find women, children and babies to aim at. Without any warning. That's what those Hungarians do.

The problem with tear gas, as I understand it, is that it's quite difficult to aim. I suppose if you froze it you could just fire it in lumps at the 'underserving poor' males, say between the ages of 18-50.

Even better if you were careful and just fired at the ones wearing "Benefit Slacker (European Tour), Gimme The Money" t-shirts. That would be ideal, I think.

Nick · Sep 18, 2015

duffer said:
The problem with tear gas, as I understand it, is that it's quite difficult to aim. I suppose if you froze it you could just fire it in lumps at the 'underserving poor' males, say between the ages of 18-50.

Even better if you were careful and just fired at the ones wearing "Benefit Slacker (European Tour), Gimme The Money" t-shirts. That would be ideal, I think.

Surely you just move your kids and women out of the way though when they say they are going to use it though?

Rather than use your kids as some sort of protection in the hope they wont use it because your kids are there like this bloke?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bec_1442426872

Hungarian police have opened fire with tear gas against 1500 rioting migrants who are attempting to break through the country’s border fence. Migrants have been chanting “Allah hu Akbar” while pelting police officers with missiles including “really big rocks”, bottles, and even food, leading to the crack down. The news follows Hungary’s state of emergency declared yesterday.

The Hungarian crack down followed the suspension of the Schengen free movement area by Germany and Austria this weekend. It became clear to German authorities that a significant number of the migrants they were processing were not in fact refugees from Syria. Germany’s local authorities have also complained that they were overwhelmed by the influx of people, and were not about to process or house them effectively.

In the past few days Hungary has begun construction on another border fence, this time on its Romanian border, and has positioned military vehicles along its border to scare off migrants.

According to the Hungarian press, migrants have been chanting, “Open! Open!” as helicopters circle overhead. According to Sky News, the migrants had a “ringleader” with them with a megaphone who was egging the migrants on, shouting demands at the Hungarian police.

Would they have been sprayed with anything if they hadn't kicked off?

torchomatic · Sep 18, 2015

Is that what they did then? "Ladies and gentlemen, the teargas performance will be starting in ten minutes. Please move all women, children and babies out of harms way. Thank you."

Nick said:
Surely you just move your kids and women out of the way though when they say they are going to use it though?

Rather than use your kids as some sort of protection in the hope they wont use it because your kids are there like this bloke?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bec_1442426872

Would they have been sprayed with anything if they hadn't kicked off?

Nick · Sep 18, 2015

torchomatic said:
Is that what they did then? "Ladies and gentlemen, the teargas performance will be starting in ten minutes. Please move all women, children and babies out of harms way. Thank you."

Well you would have thought all women and children would be out of harms way when a riot starts wouldn't you? Surely if you see a water canon or police holding canisters and getting attacked it is a sign to get your kids out of there?

I'm pretty sure they didn't just start hammering them with tear gas for no reason? If they did then I agree it is out of order.

This is again where people's behaviour is affecting innocent people (men, women and children).

If my wife was pregnant for example stood next to me and I start trying to scrap with police and she got caught in the crossfire would that be police brutality or would it be my fault for kicking off with a policeman while my pregnant wife was by my side?

Monners · Sep 18, 2015

Nick. you do seem lead a very insular life judging by your comments on this thread. The relationship between the Police and society can be very different in Europe compared to here - they are often military trained. It took the British Army many years to understand that you cannot constantly treat people en masse as a threat (I am thinking of lessons learned in Northern Ireland). I have worked with the army in a civilian capacity and this is what many of them told me.

You seem to be pinning responsiblilty solely on the refugees. The role of a civilised and organised society is to find a pragmatic and humane solution to issues such as this. This includes foreign policy, the role of the EU and UN, individual nations (including those in the proximity to Syria).

I find the small minded, little Englander views of some on this thread perplexing at best. Being part of a society isn't merely a case of just looking after ones backyard.

Jack Griffin · Sep 18, 2015

SIR ERNIE said:
The fact is that the migration crisis in Europe is rapidly developing into something much bigger than granting refugee status to desperate people. Don't you see that?

Latest estimates are that only 30% of those people illegally entering Europe are actually from Syria.

The majority of those heading to Germany are going there simply because they'd prefer to live there. That's called migration and it's now a chaotic mess.

Indeed, it is creating instability and the seeding the idea of further migrations in people all over the world. Ironically their arrival in Europe in over large numbers may destroy the very things they seek, lawfulness, stability and prosperity.

I suspect a lot of the people commenting on here might not know about why the Roman Empire fell. As the Christian religion grew in popularity, Tribes from the East (Goths, Huns etc.) irrupted through the frontiers. A succession of corrupt and inefficient governments & feeble Emperors failed to stop the rot. Not saying today is the same, but clearly parallels can be drawn.

Personally I'm not for opening borders up, I want to stem migration because I want stability in Europe and I am prepared to be selfish about that. Help to the dispossessed can and should be given, but at or near to the places where the trouble is with the aim of allowing those societies to get back on their feet.

Sick Boy · Sep 18, 2015

skybluetony176 said:
There was a piece on the news last night about vulnerable refugee children in Italy who arrived on their own. It seems to be a paedophiles dream. Children selling themselves for sometimes as little as a meal. How people can think that we shouldn't be helping these children beggars belief but there are plenty around who do. Children shouldn't be selling their bodies because they're hungry anywhere in the world let alone in "modern day" Europe.

I saw groups of them hanging around near the train station in Catania a year ago, very depressing.

How dare they even think about trying to escape from a country that can't cope with the refugees! They should be grateful to be alive.

Sick Boy · Sep 18, 2015

Jack Griffin said:
Indeed, it is creating instability and the seeding the idea of further migrations in people all over the world. Ironically their arrival in Europe in over large numbers may destroy the very things they seek, lawfulness, stability and prosperity.

I suspect a lot of the people commenting on here might not know about why the Roman Empire fell. As the Christian religion grew in popularity, Tribes from the East (Goths, Huns etc.) irrupted through the frontiers. A succession of corrupt and inefficient governments & feeble Emperors failed to stop the rot. Not saying today is the same, but clearly parallels can be drawn.

Personally I'm not for opening borders up, I want to stem migration because I want stability in Europe and I am prepared to be selfish about that. Help to the dispossessed can and should be given, but at or near to the places where the trouble is with the aim of allowing those societies to get back on their feet.

Is this a serious post? Have you ever left Coventry?

martcov · Sep 18, 2015

Jack Griffin said:
Indeed, it is creating instability and the seeding the idea of further migrations in people all over the world. Ironically their arrival in Europe in over large numbers may destroy the very things they seek, lawfulness, stability and prosperity.

I suspect a lot of the people commenting on here might not know about why the Roman Empire fell. As the Christian religion grew in popularity, Tribes from the East (Goths, Huns etc.) irrupted through the frontiers. A succession of corrupt and inefficient governments & feeble Emperors failed to stop the rot. Not saying today is the same, but clearly parallels can be drawn.

Personally I'm not for opening borders up, I want to stem migration because I want stability in Europe and I am prepared to be selfish about that. Help to the dispossessed can and should be given, but at or near to the places where the trouble is with the aim of allowing those societies to get back on their feet.

These are not marauding Goths, Huns etc.. They are escaping the fall of Iraq, Afganistan, Syria and Libya. Their arab world. If anything we are the Marauders..... We went into Afganistan, Iraq, Libya and supported the "good" rebels in Syria. Hardly comparable to the fall of Rome.

martcov · Sep 18, 2015

And I am aware that Afghanistan is not arabic, but there Afghans with them.

skybluetony176 · Sep 18, 2015

SIR ERNIE said:
Yes those Hungarians went out of their way to find women, children and babies to aim at. Without any warning. That's what those Hungarians do.

That's the problem with tear gas. It has no ability to identify it goes wherever the wind takes it. Possibly why the outfit firing said teargas always wear gas masks.

martcov · Sep 18, 2015

Broken Hearted Sky Blue said:
Not enough? A country whose infrastructure was destroyed by bombing mass unemployment no money but still look after these people. The numbers I quoted are the numbers entering Serbia,and the country you live in the richest country in Europe shit themselves after letting in a couple of days worth and said we can't cope with the numbers priceless

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Hats off to the Serbs. Not criticising them. Just repeating what the helpers were saying. With these numbers no-one has enough of everything. Germany is richer, but has taken more than anyone and e.g. There are not enough containers to house the People. They are using tents in some places. It is not just Money- it is supply.

Nick · Sep 18, 2015

Monners said:
Nick. you do seem lead a very insular life judging by your comments on this thread. The relationship between the Police and society can be very different in Europe compared to here - they are often military trained. It took the British Army many years to understand that you cannot constantly treat people en masse as a threat (I am thinking of lessons learned in Northern Ireland). I have worked with the army in a civilian capacity and this is what many of them told me.

You seem to be pinning responsiblilty solely on the refugees. The role of a civilised and organised society is to find a pragmatic and humane solution to issues such as this. This includes foreign policy, the role of the EU and UN, individual nations (including those in the proximity to Syria).

I find the small minded, little Englander views of some on this thread perplexing at best. Being part of a society isn't merely a case of just looking after ones backyard.

So surely if the police are rough you don't go there and kick off? The same as if you smuggle drugs in some places you get death.

Surely you can treat people as a threat if they are trying to break through fences and launching rocks at you?

Is it solely down to the police then? Is it all their fault? Would it have happened if nobody had kicked off? Of course it's not every refugee, it's a minority but they ruin things for everybody else don't they?

It seems that some refugees can do whatever they want and people will defend them?

If I go into town and kick off I'd probably get tasered or cs gassed. Polices fault then?

torchomatic · Sep 18, 2015

Put it another way, Nick. Before you go into town and "kick off" imagine you've walked hundreds of miles with your wife and daughter to get there. You're all exhausted, frightened and desperate for food and shelter. Now would you be a good little boy or would you be a little miffed and start to maybe "kick off"?

Nick said:
If I go into town and kick off I'd probably get tasered or cs gassed. Polices fault then?

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Nick · Sep 18, 2015

torchomatic said:
Put it another way, Nick. Before you go into town and "kick off" imagine you've walked hundreds of miles with your wife and daughter to get there. You're all exhausted, frightened and desperate for food and shelter. Now would you be a good little boy or would you be a little miffed and start to maybe "kick off"?

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But at what point is that not an excuse though? Why's it so bad to say they shouldn't throw things at police? Why is everything ok because they are desperate?

armybike · Sep 18, 2015

Nick said:
But at what point is that not an excuse though? Why's it so bad to say they shouldn't throw things at police? Why is everything ok because they are desperate?

Where has anyone said it's OK?

Nick · Sep 18, 2015

armybike said:
Where has anyone said it's OK?

Quick to jump in when somebody says it isn't or that they could be doing something wrong. Usually with the "they are desperate" stuff.

What about the guy who's been electrocuted at the tunnel? Is that not his fault?

armybike · Sep 18, 2015

Nick said:
Quick to jump in when somebody says it isn't or that they could be doing something wrong. Usually with the "they are desperate" stuff.

What about the guy who's been electrocuted at the tunnel? Is that not his fault?

So nobody then.

fernandopartridge · Sep 18, 2015

Nick said:
So surely if the police are rough you don't go there and kick off? The same as if you smuggle drugs in some places you get death.

Surely you can treat people as a threat if they are trying to break through fences and launching rocks at you?

Is it solely down to the police then? Is it all their fault? Would it have happened if nobody had kicked off? Of course it's not every refugee, it's a minority but they ruin things for everybody else don't they?

It seems that some refugees can do whatever they want and people will defend them?

If I go into town and kick off I'd probably get tasered or cs gassed. Polices fault then?

You wouldn't get trade gassed in this country and are unlikely to get tasered. You going into town kicking off is a completely different scenario and ridiculously simplistic.

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