Rent unpaid 3rd month in a row? (2 Viewers)

CJparker · Jun 13, 2012

Has it been confirmed that CFFC has not paid the monthly rent to ACL for the 3rd successive month?

At what point do ACL take City to the cleaners? It's a proper contract presumably, so they can enforce it in court.

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My personal POV is that I hope ACL make City pay every penny, SISU only recently started moaning about the rent, they agreed to it when they bought in back in 2007 so can't complain now. Yes, it is high but I feel embarrassed as a City fan that our owners are petty / hard-nosed enough to withhold paying, actually makes me sick

If you had paid for someone else's house, then rented it out to them to live in, would you be happy if they stopped paying "unaffordable" rent when their income fell as result of their own incompetence? No, thought not.

Anyway, that's my perspective just FYI, I don't want it to colour any lucid responses to the genuine questions at the top of the post
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cheers

sw88 · Jun 13, 2012

Don't think we've had any official confirmation (and we certainly won't have it from the club). It is embarrassing and ACL need to start action to recover the monies otherwise it wil just go on and on. I agree it's high but if any normal person was paying rent at a specific level for a few years, they wouldn't get away with challenging it some years down the line and not paying it until they are satisfied with any outcome.

If anything it's going to make our finances look worse off (I presume) as when we do has to pay it all back (and we will one way or another) it's going to be a huge chunk of cash, but from what pot? I would take a guess it will be out of this imaginary transfer kitty AT has been promised.

shmmeee · Jun 13, 2012

Do we have a point in that we can't use the stadium during the run up and the Olympics? So it's more like your landlord rents your front room to some Kenyan athletes and you refuse your rent...

The soothsayer · Jun 13, 2012

Are sisu trying to claim housing benefit?

bamalamafizzfazz · Jun 13, 2012

I know it's not the same argument but if we get nothing for it why should the club pay rent in the middle of summer when we're not using the stadium? Surely that's part of SISU's argument.

Tad · Jun 13, 2012

There's only one thing for it. Squatters rights!!

sw88 · Jun 13, 2012

Don't the cub still work from the Ricoh though? Offices, shop etc? It's not just the pitch and footballing facilities we use

wingy · Jun 13, 2012

shmmeee said:
Do we have a point in that we can't use the stadium during the run up and the Olympics? So it's more like your landlord rents your front room to some Kenyan athletes and you refuse your rent...

From OSBs take on things we have access 365 days a year and the fact we don't utilise elements to our own advantage costs us ,he's quoted a figure of pitch usage @£5000 per hour so i wonder if we recieve a contra payment when other events include the pitch?

valiant15 · Jun 13, 2012

Why haven't they argued about that for the last 4.5 years then?

torchomatic · Jun 13, 2012

Relegation and tumbling ST sales I suppose, Valiant.

valiant15 · Jun 13, 2012

I wonder who's fault that is???

Grendel · Jun 13, 2012

valiant15 said:
I wonder who's fault that is???

Technically the previous regime for allowing it. It is the most expensive rent outside the premier league. I think Ipswich pay one tenth of what we pay.

It has to change. No one else wil buy if it doesnt.

Jack Griffin · Jun 13, 2012

Yeah, but the council & Higgs charity took a £20M loan to complete the arena which they are repaying, they are the ones with that burden.
That would have been on the club but for disastrous mismanagement in Richardson days.
One could look at it this way, the arrangement is that club pay the interest on that, £1M per annum & SISU are not honouring the deal which they knew about before taking charge.

Tank Top · Jun 14, 2012

It feels to me, like SISU/ Hedge fund, have cleverly, but obviously, set a trap for ACL to fall into.
The situation, of SIsu, not paying rent is gathering more importance as each payment day comes and goes, It's almost like "The Ones who saved us" are daring ACL to take them to court, over the rent Arrears, this would almost certainly result in CCFC going Bust, with the blame being laid firmly at the feet of the council/ ACL, instead of the Imposters SISU, for total incompetance, and covert business practice.

Grendel · Jun 14, 2012

Tank Top said:
It feels to me, like SISU/ Hedge fund, have cleverly, but obviously, set a trap for ACL to fall into.
The situation, of SIsu, not paying rent is gathering more importance as each payment day comes and goes, It's almost like "The Ones who saved us" are daring ACL to take them to court, over the rent Arrears, this would almost certainly result in CCFC going Bust, with the blame being laid firmly at the feet of the council/ ACL, instead of the Imposters SISU, for total incompetance, and covert business practice.

What if Hoffman turned up with his Chinese Billionaires (yes I know but let's pretend for a minute). What would your view be if they said we will not buy the ground but invest all in the players (ha ha). However, they then said only if the council drop the rent to average levels (a reduction of around 80%)?

dongonzalos · Jun 14, 2012

shmmeee said:
Do we have a point in that we can't use the stadium during the run up and the Olympics? So it's more like your landlord rents your front room to some Kenyan athletes and you refuse your rent...

It is an interesting point, However I don't think SISU have exclusivity in their contract which is why giggs etc can happen at the Ricoh

dongonzalos · Jun 14, 2012

Tank Top said:
It feels to me, like SISU/ Hedge fund, have cleverly, but obviously, set a trap for ACL to fall into.
The situation, of SIsu, not paying rent is gathering more importance as each payment day comes and goes, It's almost like "The Ones who saved us" are daring ACL to take them to court, over the rent Arrears, this would almost certainly result in CCFC going Bust, with the blame being laid firmly at the feet of the council/ ACL, instead of the Imposters SISU, for total incompetance, and covert business practice.

I think people have reached the point. If the council or ACL had to do this people would still know it would be SISU as oppose to them who forced the issue

skybluesam66 · Jun 14, 2012

we're signing Giggs - breaking news

Tank Top · Jun 14, 2012

kduffy said:
What if Hoffman turned up with his Chinese Billionaires (yes I know but let's pretend for a minute). What would your view be if they said we will not buy the ground but invest all in the players (ha ha). However, they then said only if the council drop the rent to average levels (a reduction of around 80%)?[/QUOTE

Hi KD.
Any new investors, would have to negotiate their own terms on a clean sheet of paper, and the ammount of rent they pay, would I imagine be in the first paragraph, If Hoffmans group came out of the woodwork, waving substancial ammounts of new
money for players, I would Imagine no one on here would begrudge some flexibility in the Stadium rent.
This is entirely different to reducing for sisu, as they have broken, just about every pledge they have made, on players, players who were staying, were fast tracked through the exit, and incoming players. like LE Fondre, were just an idle promise to appease the growing frustration of the fans.

CJparker · Jun 14, 2012

On the point of "why do we have to pay rent in the summer?", I believe that our annual rent is £1.2m, which we happen to pay in 12 monthly instalments - this is for our use of the stadium to play in and to use as a base over the year - not a month-to-month rental agreement.

CJparker · Jun 14, 2012

In this case, the financial interests of CCFC and SISU happen to coincide, so they are trying to get the best deal possible for the club, but...I'd only support a deal if it involved all the unpaid installments up to the deal getting repaid in full as a pre-condition to a rent reduction from a future date.

If SISU have delivered Premier League football, as per their aim, would £1.2m per year be unaffordable? Of course not. They only started moaning about the rent when it became clear we'd be playing in League One - which is a direct result of their catastrophic mis-management of the club.

Ashdown · Jun 14, 2012

Relegation brought on primarily by SISU's abandonment of the playing side of the club.

aodea · Jun 14, 2012

The tactics used by Sisu are underhanded yes but it can be done to put pressure on. Now owing 300k in rent, Surely this money will be missed and can lead to an ugly court case. I dont think this is a cleaver move. look at Rangers and they are a much bigger club than us. I am very worried for Coventry City.

cloughie · Jun 14, 2012

I emailed Mutton regarding what action ACL are going to take regarding unpaid rent. This was with a veiw that as a ratepayer I have a right to know as the council own 50% of ACL.

Several days later I still await his reply..........

oldskyblue58 · Jun 14, 2012

cloughie said:
I emailed Mutton regarding what action ACL are going to take regarding unpaid rent. This was with a veiw that as a ratepayer I have a right to know as the council own 50% of ACL.

Several days later I still await his reply..........

Think he is presently on holiday cloughie his deputy is running the show in the mean time

ashbyjan · Jun 14, 2012

I think there is a huge game of chicken going on with the future of our club at stake. SISU are basically threatening our clubs existence by not paying the rent and ACL's only recourse would be to take the matter to court and push the club into admin. Also this is part of the negotiations to get the 50% share of ACL - seems a strange tactic but based on track record we know SISU are ruthless bullies who would shut this club in the blink of an eye if it was in their best interests. The council and Higgs know the value of the club to the fabric of the City historically and economically and SISU are praying in this compassion.

Maybe we should make it clear to the Council that they have our full support in refusing to sell the 50% to these people no matter what clauses and safeguards are written into any contract because they will go back on it and it will end up in court and become even messier. I am, personally , starting to hope that we as supporters can get ourselves sorted and in a position to be ready to buy the club out of admin and then encourage the council via ACL to push the club into admin. This would rid us off SISU and give us a community club with a clean slate to start again. Maybe thats too simplistic but who knows.

dongonzalos · Jun 14, 2012

ashbyjan said:
I think there is a huge game of chicken going on with the future of our club at stake. SISU are basically threatening our clubs existence by not paying the rent and ACL's only recourse would be to take the matter to court and push the club into admin. Also this is part of the negotiations to get the 50% share of ACL - seems a strange tactic but based on track record we know SISU are ruthless bullies who would shut this club in the blink of an eye if it was in their best interests. The council and Higgs know the value of the club to the fabric of the City historically and economically and SISU are praying in this compassion.

Maybe we should make it clear to the Council that they have our full support in refusing to sell the 50% to these people no matter what clauses and safeguards are written into any contract because they will go back on it and it will end up in court and become even messier. I am, personally , starting to hope that we as supporters can get ourselves sorted and in a position to be ready to buy the club out of admin and then encourage the council via ACL to push the club into admin. This would rid us off SISU and give us a community club with a clean slate to start again. Maybe thats too simplistic but who knows.

Is is possible to somehow get to the facts of what admin would lead to? Is this something the trust maybe able to find out. How I dont know

People on here have looked at the administrations of the past with other clubs and they seem to say that all the debts bar 20% get wiped off.

Our debts are apparently 40 million loans to SISU. So in theory we go into Admin someone gets to buy the club from the administrator for 10 million.

We are rid of SISU. I would imagine someone would only do it if they could strike deal with the council/higgs for 10-15 million for the half the Ricoh.

25-30 million for that entire package has to be attractive to someone. I really dont see administration as the end of our club but the future of our club.

The one problem I see is SISU wont allow it they will pay up before going to administration.

I think their plan if they cant do a deal for half the stadium will be to break even. To get there IMO will mean relegation again and constant promotion of the kids and selling them.

Grendel · Jun 14, 2012

ashbyjan said:
I think there is a huge game of chicken going on with the future of our club at stake. SISU are basically threatening our clubs existence by not paying the rent and ACL's only recourse would be to take the matter to court and push the club into admin. Also this is part of the negotiations to get the 50% share of ACL - seems a strange tactic but based on track record we know SISU are ruthless bullies who would shut this club in the blink of an eye if it was in their best interests. The council and Higgs know the value of the club to the fabric of the City historically and economically and SISU are praying in this compassion.

Maybe we should make it clear to the Council that they have our full support in refusing to sell the 50% to these people no matter what clauses and safeguards are written into any contract because they will go back on it and it will end up in court and become even messier. I am, personally , starting to hope that we as supporters can get ourselves sorted and in a position to be ready to buy the club out of admin and then encourage the council via ACL to push the club into admin. This would rid us off SISU and give us a community club with a clean slate to start again. Maybe thats too simplistic but who knows.

The flaw is of course that the administrators decide who buys the club - not the potential buyer. So another hedge fund could appear, or even the consortium that expressed an interest last time. That would be fun.

oldskyblue58 · Jun 14, 2012

CWR were reporting that CCFC were expecting the embargo to be lifted in next couple of days because accounts and budget nearly signed off. That could suggest a few things

- that some agreement has been reached on the rent...... the default has to be sorted out because it puts us in breach of the lease, potentially homeless and therefore affects the going concern of the business.

- that a deal has been reached or is very likely to be reached with the Charity for the 50% of the shares - last info we had was that there was no deal and SISU had not made a suitable offer, even then a change of ownership (not the value of the deal) needs to be ratified by the council

- that SISU have been thwarted in their quest for the shares and have a plan B where there are even more cuts to have the club live entirely and only within its means - in which case the budget and accounts signed off on that basis and the basis that SISU will not call the existing loans in. It would also imply that a deal done on the rent or the original deal stands to be able to sign off the financials

- that it is still on going and that the reports of nearly signed off are inaccurate.

all some or none of the above could be correct

Nothing has happened in the last week because I think some of the main players have been away for various reasons.

Think there is a lot more to come out and the finances are are going to be so tight that fans should not expect anything more than survival right now in terms of playing achievements

dongonzalos · Jun 14, 2012

kduffy said:
The flaw is of course that the administrators decide who buys the club - not the potential buyer. So another hedge fund could appear, or even the consortium that expressed an interest last time. That would be fun.

yes you end up in exactly the same position but at least you tried, other than the club dissolving for good. What is worse than this?

dongonzalos · Jun 14, 2012

oldskyblue58 said:
CWR were reporting that CCFC were expecting the embargo to be lifted in next couple of days because accounts and budget nearly signed off. That could suggest a few things

- that some agreement has been reached on the rent...... the default has to be sorted out because it puts us in breach of the lease, potentially homeless and therefore affects the going concern of the business.

- that a deal has been reached or is very likely to be reached with the Charity for the 50% of the shares - last info we had was that there was no deal and SISU had not made a suitable offer, even then a change of ownership (not the value of the deal) needs to be ratified by the council

- that SISU have been thwarted in their quest for the shares and have a plan B where there are even more cuts to have the club live entirely and only within its means - in which case the budget and accounts signed off on that basis and the basis that SISU will not call the existing loans in. It would imply that a deal done on the rent or the original deal stands

- that it is still on going and that the reports of nearly signed off are inaccurate.

all some or none of the above could be correct

Nothing has happened in the last week because I think some of the main players have been away for various reasons.

Think there is a lot more to come out and the finances are are going to be so tight that fans should not expect anything more than survival right now in terms of playing achievements

Bloody hell OSB here you go burying news amongst other threads again!

ashbyjan · Jun 14, 2012

Dongo - the Trust is in contact and setting up a meeting with Ian Peach who is the administrator handling the Portsmouth situation so we will learn some invaluable lessons from him which I am sure we can utilise going forward.

Duffy - you are correct that the administrator is the one who decides on the preffered bidder but if we have a well constructed and professional bid w would have credibility. Also as I understand it the administrator selects the preffered bidder but then the creditors can reject the proposed CVA or whatever and as one of the creditors would be ACL they could reject any bid that they didn't feel was in the best interests of the club. As I said above to Dongo we are learning more and more from Ian Peach and this is not an unrealistic scenario.

oldskyblue58 · Jun 14, 2012

think it is 75% value of unsecured non football creditors that have to approve a CVA to come out of administration...... clearly that is going to be SISU loans so any administration will in a real sense be controlled by SISU. The ARVO loans are secured and football creditors have to be paid in full

ACL would seem to be owed £300K and breach of lease compensation whether thats enough to control the administration i do not know

oldskyblue58 · Jun 14, 2012

dongonzalos said:
Bloody hell OSB here you go burying news amongst other threads again!

just my opinions dongonzalos nothing more - sure i wasnt only one to hear cwr this morning

dongonzalos · Jun 14, 2012

oldskyblue58 said:
think it is 75% value of unsecured non football creditors that have to approve a CVA to come out of administration...... clearly that is going to be SISU loans so any administration will in a real sense be controlled by SISU. The ARVO loans are secured and football creditors have to be paid in full

ACL would seem to be owed £300K and breach of lease compensation whether thats enough to control the administration i do not know

So effectively if someone wanted to buy the club out of administartion they are still buying from SISU. How much will they get back of their loans?

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