Ricoh Valuation. (1 Viewer)

Senior Vick from Alicante · Dec 12, 2013

I am genuinely interested to see what the general opinion is on a valuation of the Ricoh on here. Sisu value the stadium at various figures according to posters but the consensus seems to be some thing on or around the 5 million mark which would equate to what they were wiling to pay for ACL'S loan from the bank. If you take this as a basic formula then the council will value it at a minimum 14 million as that is what they bailed them out for, the problem with both of these figures is that they are not valuations based on the true sense of the word, we all know that Tesco paid a large majority of the costs through the land purchase but this still clouds the issue.

I am not a property expert but I would value a complex like that at something north of 50 million, we have recently purchased a main road sight to expand into and the total cost including the land we sit on is around the 3 million mark and the footprint for the land we own is less than an acre. What do others on the forum think the Ricoh is actually worth? NOPM

RoboCCFC90 · Dec 12, 2013

Senior Vick from Alicante said:
I am genuinely interested to see what the general opinion is on a valuation of the Ricoh on here. Sisu value the stadium at various figures according to posters but the consensus seems to be some thing on or around the 5 million mark which would equate to what they were wiling to pay for ACL'S loan from the bank. If you take this as a basic formula then the council will value it at a minimum 14 million as that is what they bailed them out for, the problem with both of these figures is that they are not valuations based on the true sense of the word, we all know that Tesco paid a large majority of the costs through the land purchase but this still clouds the issue.

I am not a property expert but I would value a complex like that at something north of 50 million, we have recently purchased a main road sight to expand into and the total cost including the land we sit on is around the 3 million mark and the footprint for the land we own is less than an acre. What do others on the forum think the Ricoh is actually worth? NOPM

If Sisu believe they will purchase the Ricoh Freehold for £4M then unfortunately they're deluded or crazy (pick whichever suits). The total constrcutiuon cost to memory was north of £110M, a valuation of the Arena would be at least be half of that amount.

ccfcway · Dec 12, 2013

well sisu are prepared to pay £20m + for a lego stadium.

They should start by offering that and see what happens !

I suggest thats not going to happen though

kingharvest · Dec 12, 2013

But they didn't value the freehold at £4m did they? Wasn't that their value of the 'business' i.e. ACL?

stupot07 · Dec 12, 2013

A good idea would be both sides getting an independent valuation or 2, then coming together and negotiating a price somewhere in the middle.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

RoboCCFC90 · Dec 12, 2013

ccfcway said:
well sisu are prepared to pay £20m + for a lego stadium.

They should start by offering that and see what happens !

I suggest thats not going to happen though

Will that be enough though? Ann Lucas has already stated that she wants to get the best deal for the People of Coventry.

stupot07 · Dec 12, 2013

RoboCCFC90 said:
Will that be enough though? Ann Lucas has already stated that she wants to get the best deal for the People of Coventry.

We don't know what a good deal looks like, they certainly won't get anywhere near the construction costs, and how much is a freehold worth when you have a long term tenant leaseholder who's already paid the lease up front? I have no idea.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

GaryPendrysEyes · Dec 12, 2013

Like the rent, the Ricoh is worth what someone will pay for it.
I would assume the land around the stadium, if included, would on its own be over 4m,

wafw1971 · Dec 12, 2013

The council in my opinion has had more than enough of a return for the £10 million investment, that being said I would guess that the Ricoh Arena on its own is not worth that much as a leasehold, the business (ACL) is worth £6.4 million according to what was in the paper (does this include the Alan Higgs share), so to buy the business you would say £7 Million then the cost of the lease, well I have no idea.

The Freehold of the Arena and surrounding land could be worth £20 to £30 Million but you will still need to buy out the businesses that is currently locked into a lease, as a landlord you cannot just buy the freehold then kick out the sitting tenants until the lease runs out.

Skyblue4u · Dec 12, 2013

The council are legally obliged to sell it at market value only so it can old be sold for what it's worth

Moff · Dec 12, 2013

No idea, not an expert in these matters (although wish I was as I would earn more) and suppose we could surmise all day but without an expert we will never know. Does that help?

magic82ball · Dec 12, 2013

stupot07 said:
A good idea would be both sides getting an independent valuation or 2, then coming together and negotiating a price somewhere in the middle.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

You are right but a potential sticking point might be the SISU valuation would be based on no income from football club, ie. as it is now, whereas ACL/CCC would be inclined to use this as this is what it would and has been used for. Given both parties histories, negotiations would be a nightmare.

I must admit to being completely confused with the valuations. It cost north of £110m to build, yet figures of £5m are mentioned.

Didn't CCFC have an option of £10m on half the stadium at one point? Would they be buying all the stadium and if so does that mean negotiating purchases with both ACL/CCC?

bigfatronssba · Dec 12, 2013

magic82ball said:
You are right but a potential sticking point might be the SISU valuation would be based on no income from football club, ie. as it is now, whereas ACL/CCC would be inclined to use this as this is what it would and has been used for. Given both parties histories, negotiations would be a nightmare.

I must admit to being completely confused with the valuations. It cost north of £110m to build, yet figures of £5m are mentioned.

Didn't CCFC have an option of £10m on half the stadium at one point? Would they be buying all the stadium and if so does that mean negotiating purchases with both ACL/CCC?

The CCFC option was to buy half of ACL, not the Freehold.

Sky Blue Dal · Dec 12, 2013

stupot07 said:
We don't know what a good deal looks like, they certainly won't get anywhere near the construction costs, and how much is a freehold worth when you have a long term tenant leaseholder who's already paid the lease up front? I have no idea.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

I agree, they are not going to get anywhere near the construction costs.

All I can see is that, ACL/HIGGS/CCC are trying recuperate as much of the money they have invested in constructing and running this stadium and SISU are trying to do the same but making silly offers for the stadium in hope of recuperating back the investment they have made towards the club.

If Anne Lucas is saying she wants to do the best deal for the people of Coventry who many are not football fans, then I say good on her.

We have look at a bigger picture ... It's not all about football and CCFC Who wants to see the city they live in lose any money which would affect them in the long run.

grego_gee · Dec 12, 2013

Valuing commercial property is surprisingly straightforward.
It is based on the income that the investment would produce ie rent.
If the purchaser could leave their money in the bank and get a greater income they are not goint to invest.
For a nutshell indication a purchaser would be looking for 7% return.
to get a capital value divide the rental value by 7% (0.07) to get the capital value
thus when we were paying £1.3m
the capital value could have been expressed as £1.3m / 0.07= £18.5m

lewys33 · Dec 12, 2013

Not really sure if its worth talking about this. According to various sources (not going to start reeling them off) the £6.4 mill valuation was for ACL in a distressed situation. ML said that their valuation was closer to £3 mill or £4 mill (not sure if he was referring to ACL or Freehold, I am guessing freehold because .....)

Didn't Tim Fisher recently say they would buy the freehold, and it would be up to CCC to "liquidate" ACL? I seriously doubt that it would happen.

magic82ball · Dec 12, 2013

grego_gee said:
Valuing commercial property is surprisingly straightforward.
It is based on the income that the investment would produce ie rent.
If the purchaser could leave their money in the bank and get a greater income they are not goint to invest.
For a nutshell indication a purchaser would be looking for 7% return.
to get a capital value divide the rental value by 7% (0.07) to get the capital value
thus when we were paying £1.3m
the capital value could have been expressed as £1.3m / 0.07= £18.5m

So no rent received = £0 val?

Surely it has to be more complex than that? What about the fact the income would be massively increased as soon as they took over due to the club being brought back?

bigfatronssba · Dec 12, 2013

The whole crux of the matter though is what the Ricoh is worth now isn't necessarily what it will be worth in the future.

The council is under no obligation to sell. Therefore why would it take a loss by excepting a £5m bid? The council has an obligation to get the greatest return possible, and if that means hanging on to the Ricoh until some unspecified date in the future, then that is what they'll do.

italiahorse · Dec 12, 2013

I think people are getting mixed up between the Lease and the Freehold.
The Ricoh stadium with freehold would be in the region of £40M and as a whole £60M-£70M with the rest of the complex. IMHO

In addition I don't think they want to sell.

Hugh Jarse · Dec 12, 2013

The land it stands on has to be 'worth' more than £5M?

RoboCCFC90 · Dec 12, 2013

lewys33 said:
Not really sure if its worth talking about this. According to various sources (not going to start reeling them off) the £6.4 mill valuation was for ACL in a distressed situation. ML said that their valuation was closer to £3 mill or £4 mill (not sure if he was referring to ACL or Freehold, I am guessing freehold because .....)

Didn't Tim Fisher recently say they would buy the freehold, and it would be up to CCC to "liquidate" ACL? I seriously doubt that it would happen.

Only because Tim Fisher said about bringing in AEG as a management company.

Moston · Dec 12, 2013

The valuation is nowhere near as simple as has been claimed!

It is impossible to speculate unless all the facts of tenure are fully known...and they are all up in the air.

Who's interest are you valuing? - value to freehold owner? or 50% share? - value of freehold subject to a tenancy? or value freehold of vacant possession? Value of the Areana? or the value of the complex? - value of Complex or of surrounding land included? Is land (etc) subject to tenancy? I guess the Casino (etc) is subject to a different tenancy - which further clouds the issue.

It is correct to state the value is determined by income received - but also potential income received. Interpretation of this varies considerably and is why commercial valuations are done by professionals.

A SISU valuer and a Council/ACL valuer will need to agree facts as to what they are in fact valuing!, at an agreed valuation date.

Hypothetical Freehold vacant? or subject to tenancy - if so how long has the lease left to run?, prospects of closure of lease? yahdy yahdy yah.

In other words - don't hold your breath for 2 independent valuations to be agreed anytime soon.

lewys33 · Dec 12, 2013

RoboCCFC90 said:
Only because Tim Fisher said about bringing in AEG as a management company.

That is fair enough. I still seriously doubt CCC would be happy to do that though.

wingy · Dec 12, 2013

The lease ACL hold currently lowers the Value of the Freehold . One way to solve that would be to revert to a simple rental agreement ,the footing they started off on ,also removes SISU's stance on State aid.

RoboCCFC90 · Dec 12, 2013

italiahorse said:
I think people are getting mixed up between the Lease and the Freehold.
The Ricoh stadium with freehold would be in the region of £40M and as a whole £60M-£70M with the rest of the complex. IMHO

In addition I don't think they want to sell.

Well in comparison the six fingered muupets from up the M69 brought there ground for £17M in March this year, now obviously the KP is not as well equipped as the Ricoh, but the KP was built at 1/3 of the Ricoh's contructions costs.

The Ricoh will be at least double the value of the KP when it was bought in March.

mrtrench · Dec 12, 2013

grego_gee said:
Valuing commercial property is surprisingly straightforward.
It is based on the income that the investment would produce ie rent.
If the purchaser could leave their money in the bank and get a greater income they are not goint to invest.
For a nutshell indication a purchaser would be looking for 7% return.
to get a capital value divide the rental value by 7% (0.07) to get the capital value
thus when we were paying £1.3m
the capital value could have been expressed as £1.3m / 0.07= £18.5m

Beat me to it - had just started playing with some yield and revenue assumptions in Excel. I also assumed 7% yield, although that may be a little high. I assumed total income of 2mm giving a valuation of 28.5mm.

To answer magic82ball, it is the income potential that should be used. The fact that SISU withheld their rent is not relevant. I reckon that properly managed, one should be able to get 2mm pa revenues from the Ricoh (Casino, special events, catering etc.)

RoboCCFC90 · Dec 12, 2013

lewys33 said:
That is fair enough. I still seriously doubt CCC would be happy to do that though.

True enough, can see Fisher's point though (can't believe I am saying that).

lewys33 · Dec 12, 2013

RoboCCFC90 said:
Well in comparison the six fingered muupets from up the M69 brought there ground for £17M in March this year, now obviously the KP is not as well equipped as the Ricoh, but the KP was built at 1/3 of the Ricoh's contructions costs.

The Ricoh will be at least double the value of the KP when it was bought in March.

That is a good starting point though isn't it? £17 mill for a similar sized stadium albeit less equiped. Anything less than that has to be branded ridiculous.

wingy · Dec 12, 2013

Moston said:
The valuation is nowhere near as simple as has been claimed!

It is impossible to speculate unless all the facts of tenure are fully known...and they are all up in the air.

Who's interest are you valuing? - value to freehold owner? or 50% share? - value of freehold subject to a tenancy? or value freehold of vacant possession? Value of the Areana? or the value of the complex? - value of Complex or of surrounding land included? Is land (etc) subject to tenancy? I guess the Casino (etc) is subject to a different tenancy - which further clouds the issue.

It is correct to state the value is determined by income received - but also potential income received. Interpretation of this varies considerably and is why commercial valuations are done by professionals.

A SISU valuer and a Council/ACL valuer will need to agree facts as to what they are in fact valuing!, at an agreed valuation date.

Hypothetical Freehold vacant? or subject to tenancy - if so how long has the lease left to run?, prospects of closure of lease? yahdy yahdy yah.

In other words - don't hold your breath for 2 independent valuations to be agreed anytime soon.

Excellent summation Moston ,you're not in the field are you by any chance?

fernandopartridge · Dec 12, 2013

wingy said:
Excellent summation Moston ,you're not in the field are you by any chance?

No, he's in the office.

RoboCCFC90 · Dec 12, 2013

lewys33 said:
That is a good starting point though isn't it? £17 mill for a similar sized stadium albeit less equiped. Anything less than that has to be branded ridiculous.

Absolutely, you'd have to agree that £17M is a good starting point, combined with the hotel, casino, additional land, etc, you are looking at least £30M for the Arena possible pushing £40M.

mrtrench · Dec 12, 2013

Moston said:
The valuation is nowhere near as simple as has been claimed!

It is impossible to speculate unless all the facts of tenure are fully known...and they are all up in the air.

Who's interest are you valuing? - value to freehold owner? or 50% share? - value of freehold subject to a tenancy? or value freehold of vacant possession? Value of the Areana? or the value of the complex? - value of Complex or of surrounding land included? Is land (etc) subject to tenancy? I guess the Casino (etc) is subject to a different tenancy - which further clouds the issue.

It is correct to state the value is determined by income received - but also potential income received. Interpretation of this varies considerably and is why commercial valuations are done by professionals.

A SISU valuer and a Council/ACL valuer will need to agree facts as to what they are in fact valuing!, at an agreed valuation date.

Hypothetical Freehold vacant? or subject to tenancy - if so how long has the lease left to run?, prospects of closure of lease? yahdy yahdy yah.

In other words - don't hold your breath for 2 independent valuations to be agreed anytime soon.

Well, yes... Of course there are nuances and there will be a lot of negotiation within a range, but that doesn't invalidate grego-gee's helpful post which at least gives people on here and understanding of the rationale for valuing commercial property and hence the ballpark for a price.

mrtrench · Dec 12, 2013

20-30 year gilts trading at 3.5%, so I reckon 7% is a bit high. 6% yield assumption gives a valuation of 33mm - again on projected revenue of 2mm.

2.5mm revenue and 6% yield gives you 42mm valuation.

skybluesam66 · Dec 12, 2013

If it was purely a fair valuation, then it would be somewhere between 15- 50m

However, in this arbitration, SISU will have ACL in a double nelson, and water torture, before the final negotiation - so I am expecting something like £1.75 (for those hawksby and jacobs fans)

grego_gee · Dec 12, 2013

bigfatronssba said:
The whole crux of the matter though is what the Ricoh is worth now isn't necessarily what it will be worth in the future.

The council is under no obligation to sell. Therefore why would it take a loss by excepting a £5m bid? The council has an obligation to get the greatest return possible, and if that means hanging on to the Ricoh until some unspecified date in the future, then that is what they'll do.

Another aspect to consider is the cost of holding onto the "asset".
From my experience close to 2% pa (of replacement value) should be budgeted for planned and responsive maintenance..

for the replacement value we could work on the building cost of £60m = £1.2m pa for maintenance, although for a stadium building I would agree a lower level could suffice
there are other costs
heating & power
rates - interesting here because CCC was forced to give a rebate of £400k to CCFC because they were only using it for 23 days a year - someone else has responsibility for the rest of the year. Not clear who,the freehold is owned through another Quango.

Ricoh Valuation. (1 Viewer)

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