Shamima Begum (10 Viewers)

Sky Blue Pete · Feb 23, 2023

Nick said:
Are you being serious?

So if you say Begum is a wrongun (she was still making comments at 19/20 wasn't she?) then you must think the 11 year olds in Rotherham were gagging for it?

Absolutely serious that at 15 being groomed for the desires of the adults doing the grooming is on the adults and not the children
How you can turn that the other way round for the victims of sexual crime in places like Rotherham is beyond my understanding
The actions taken after being groomed need to be considered in the light of the exploitation to put one in that place. Is she innocent of her actions and words as an adult and her comments as a 19-20 year old no.
I don’t understand sorry

SBT · Feb 23, 2023

Nick said:
Are you being serious?

So if you say Begum is a wrongun (she was still making comments at 19/20 wasn't she?) then you must think the 11 year olds in Rotherham were gagging for it?

I think he’s saying she was manipulated as a child to think that certain (insane) behaviours/ideas were acceptable.

Nick · Feb 23, 2023

Sky Blue Pete said:
Absolutely serious that at 15 being groomed for the desires of the adults doing the grooming is on the adults and not the children
How you can turn that the other way round for the victims of sexual crime in places like Rotherham is beyond my understanding
The actions taken after being groomed need to be considered in the light of the exploitation to put one in that place. Is she innocent of her actions and words as an adult and her comments as a 19-20 year old no.
I don’t understand sorry

Can you really not see the difference and think it's the same?

I'm not saying it's right for the brainwashing by ISIS to get both wives and fighters to join them, of course, it's not. It's in no way comparable for a 15-year-old who was naive and gullible who wanted what she thought was a "glamour lifestyle" and 12 year olds being passed around gangs of men.

My daughter is nearly 14, I can see a massive different in how much she has matured since she was 11/12.

Grendel · Feb 23, 2023

SBT said:
I think he’s saying she was manipulated as a child to think that certain (insane) behaviours/ideas were acceptable.

I think the point made is that as an adult she still believe in said insane (curiously bracketed by you) behaviours being acceptable and that her ideology remains unchanged.

HuckerbyDublinWhelan · Feb 23, 2023

Nick said:
Are you talking about the ones who were raped? They weren't all 15 at the time at all. They were between 12 (maybe 11) to 16. One was a 12 year old who was raped and made pregnant.

It's a weird justification / comparison

You’re misunderstanding me. Shamima Begum was subject to manipulation and coercion in the same way as those poor girls were.

one is rightly considered grooming and the other is seen as “knew what she was getting into”

SBT · Feb 23, 2023

Grendel said:
I think the point made is that as an adult she still believe in said insane (curiously bracketed by you) behaviours being acceptable and that her ideology remains unchanged.

I was just pointing out for the avoidance of doubt that ISIS = bad, after I was accused of being a terrorist sympathiser yesterday for some reason.

Her views as an adult will (rightly!!) see her liberties be curtailed for the foreseeable future, at a minimum. But any defence lawyer is going to point to how she ‘acquired’ those views in deciding what to do with her. Anyway, I’m not sure the original comparison to Rotherham etc is the best one in any case.

Sky Blue Pete · Feb 23, 2023

Phew thanks I thought I was going mad!

The girls weren’t groomed by the hope of having sex with old men in cars they were groomed by being given money and time and gifts and alcohol and treated like they mattered Nick so that they could then be abused.

Grendel · Feb 23, 2023

SBT said:
I was just pointing out for the avoidance of doubt that ISIS = bad, after I was accused of being a terrorist sympathiser yesterday for some reason.

Her views as an adult will (rightly!!) see her liberties be curtailed for the foreseeable future, at a minimum. But any defence lawyer is going to point to how she ‘acquired’ those views in deciding what to do with her. Anyway, I’m not sure the original comparison to Rotherham etc is the best one in any case.

No it isn't a good comparison I agree

I think its fairly obvious she will return at some point as I can't see citizen removal is a legitimate action but I think the government are delaying the inevitable as they do not know what to do with her

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 23, 2023

Grendel said:
No it isn't a good comparison I agree

I think its fairly obvious she will return at some point as I can't see citizen removal is a legitimate action but I think the government are delaying the inevitable as they do not know what to do with her

It’s what PREVENT was designed to stop.

Deleted member 5849 · Feb 23, 2023

Grendel said:
No it isn't a good comparison I agree

I think its fairly obvious she will return at some point as I can't see citizen removal is a legitimate action but I think the government are delaying the inevitable as they do not know what to do with her

Yeah, the decision to remove it does seem as much avoiding the difficult decisions of what to do beyond that for as long as possible.

Sky Blue Pete · Feb 23, 2023

Nick said:
Can you really not see the difference and think it's the same?

I'm not saying it's right for the brainwashing by ISIS to get both wives and fighters to join them, of course, it's not. It's in no way comparable for a 15-year-old who was naive and gullible who wanted what she thought was a "glamour lifestyle" and 12 year olds being passed around gangs of men.

My daughter is nearly 14, I can see a massive different in how much she has matured since she was 11/12.

I have two daughters
One 23 and one 19 and in lots of ways I can still see their naivety and need for me and others to protect them from themselves and take some responsibility when they don’t have all the necessary information to make good decisions
It’s scary
I love they still trust and respect my opinion and that they are savvy and confident to sometimes disagree with me and so their own thing as they find their way in life
Sorry if it’s an unhelpful analogy I didn’t make it initially I was just surprised you treat one child in one way and another in another
She deserves to account for her crimes so long as society takes some responsibility for it being possible for her to be coerced into believing a lie and then buying into that lie and acting it out in the brutal ways that it did as Earlsdon pointed out earlier in the thread

Nick · Feb 23, 2023

Sky Blue Pete said:
I have two daughters
One 23 and one 19 and in lots of ways I can still see their naivety and need for me and others to protect them from themselves and take some responsibility when they don’t have all the necessary information to make good decisions
It’s scary
I love they still trust and respect my opinion and that they are savvy and confident to sometimes disagree with me and so their own thing as they find their way in life
Sorry if it’s an unhelpful analogy I didn’t make it initially I was just surprised you treat one child in one way and another in another
She deserves to account for her crimes so long as society takes some responsibility for it being possible for her to be coerced into believing a lie and then buying into that lie and acting it out in the brutal ways that it did as Earlsdon pointed out earlier in the thread

Surely you have to treat people on an individual basis rather than just "they were under 16 so are a victim" for whatever they did?

Otis · Feb 23, 2023

Grendel said:
I think the point made is that as an adult she still believe in said insane (curiously bracketed by you) behaviours being acceptable and that her ideology remains unchanged.

That's surely been through conditioning though isn't it.

She was groomed and brainwashed and conditioned into believing the ways of IS.

I have seen the same happening in religion over here. You can be bombarded and groomed and conditioned into believing in something.

I know it's only a TV show, but Derren Brown once did an experiment and he got this girl who was a complete atheist, into believing in God. All through conditioning and suggestion and manipulation.

And this is not my sticking up for Shamima Begum. I hate what she has done and what she became.

I really don't know what the answer is, but she was just 15 and was without any shadow of a doubt, conditioned and groomed.

How we now turn that around I don't know. How easy is it to "deprogram" someone?

Sky Blue Pete · Feb 23, 2023

Nick said:
Surely you have to treat people on an individual basis rather than just "they were under 16 so are a victim" for whatever they did?

The law doesn’t but of course some 16 year olds know more and are more mature than other 16 year olds

Sky Blue Pete · Feb 23, 2023

Otis said:
That's surely been through conditioning though isn't it.

She was groomed and brainwashed and conditioned into believing the ways of IS.

I have seen the same happening on religion over here. You can be bombarded and groomed and conditioned into believing in something.

I know it's only a TV show, but Derren Brown once did an experiment and he for this girl who was a complete atheist, into believing in God. All through conditioning and suggestion and manipulation.

And this is not my sticking up for Shamima Begum. I hate what she has done and what she became.

I really don't know what the answer is, but she was just 15 and was without any shadow of a doubt, conditioned and groomed.

How we now turn that around I don't know. How easy is it to "deprogram" someone?

Not as easy as the other way around and far easier to treat her as a monster and let her rot in Syria

Otis · Feb 23, 2023

Sky Blue Pete said:
I have two daughters
One 23 and one 19 and in lots of ways I can still see their naivety and need for me and others to protect them from themselves and take some responsibility when they don’t have all the necessary information to make good decisions
It’s scary
I love they still trust and respect my opinion and that they are savvy and confident to sometimes disagree with me and so their own thing as they find their way in life

Sky Blue Pete said:
Sorry if it’s an unhelpful analogy I didn’t make it initially I was just surprised you treat one child in one way and another in another
She deserves to account for her crimes so long as society takes some responsibility for it being possible for her to be coerced into believing a lie and then buying into that lie and acting it out in the brutal ways that it did as Earlsdon pointed out earlier in the thread

I recall just how naive my daughter was at 15. Incredibly so and very easily influenced.

Otis · Feb 23, 2023

Nick said:
Surely you have to treat people on an individual basis rather than just "they were under 16 so are a victim" for whatever they did?

That is a fair point. I do think it depends on the case.

Sky Blue Pete · Feb 23, 2023

Nick said:
Surely you have to treat people on an individual basis rather than just "they were under 16 so are a victim" for whatever they did?

Age of criminal responsibility I think is 12 in the uk so no they are still responsible for their actions but with a level of leniency for various crimes and certainly for grooming or trafficking there’s an element of being victims.

HuckerbyDublinWhelan · Feb 23, 2023

Nick said:
Surely you have to treat people on an individual basis rather than just "they were under 16 so are a victim" for whatever they did?

You do, but you’ve also got to look at the root cause of the issue. That would be that for whatever reason she’s felt marginalised and thus become easy prey for people who are expert manipulators.

she’s effectively been seduced into becoming a bride/someone to pump out babies. That is a victim as such.

rob9872 · Feb 23, 2023

Sky Blue Pete said:
Age of criminal responsibility I think is 12 in the uk so no they are still responsible for their actions but with a level of leniency for various crimes and certainly for grooming or trafficking there’s an element of being victims.

I think it's 10 isn't it? Unless it changed after Jamie Bulger

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Feb 23, 2023

Otis said:
That's surely been through conditioning though isn't it.

She was groomed and brainwashed and conditioned into believing the ways of IS.

I have seen the same happening in religion over here. You can be bombarded and groomed and conditioned into believing in something.

I know it's only a TV show, but Derren Brown once did an experiment and he got this girl who was a complete atheist, into believing in God. All through conditioning and suggestion and manipulation.

And this is not my sticking up for Shamima Begum. I hate what she has done and what she became.

I really don't know what the answer is, but she was just 15 and was without any shadow of a doubt, conditioned and groomed.

How we now turn that around I don't know. How easy is it to "deprogram" someone?

Good points .
For me it's not necessarily about being groomed at 15 because I'm pretty sure that's largely a given. What concerns me more is what she is saying now. That's the point. It's difficult to know what's genuine and what isn't, given she's now a mature adult. It all sounds remorseful but I've not heard anything I wouldn't expect .
The fact that she has changed her appearance completely and has gone all "western" doesn't endear her to me one little bit. The jewellery , clothing, fake nails etc just stinks of something other than genuine .

fernandopartridge · Feb 23, 2023

rob9872 said:
I think it's 10 isn't it? Unless it changed after Jamie Bulger

It was 14 at the time of their trial but they were an exceptional case as it was demonstrated that they understood the seriousness of what they had done. It was brought down to 10 by the Labour government in 1998.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Feb 23, 2023

Grendel said:
No it isn't a good comparison I agree

I think its fairly obvious she will return at some point as I can't see citizen removal is a legitimate action but I think the government are delaying the inevitable as they do not know what to do with her

I think eventually they'll have to bring her back but will arrest her and charge for stuff that happened after she turned 16/18. There are comments by her at those ages that suggest she was still willing and ideologically allied to a terrorist organisation.

Of course the fact that she went at 15 will be used by the defence as mitigating circumstances, but I'd have thought there would still be enough to send her to jail for a bit and be on a watchlist forever.

TomRad85 · Feb 23, 2023

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
I think eventually they'll have to bring her back but will arrest her and charge for stuff that happened after she turned 16/18. There are comments by her at those ages that suggest she was still willing and ideologically allied to a terrorist organisation.

Of course the fact that she went at 15 will be used by the defence as mitigating circumstances, but I'd have thought there would still be enough to send her to jail for a bit and be on a watchlist forever.

Would she even be safe in this country? Not that I care, I'm amazed so many of you are even bothered what happens to this stupid woman.

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Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Feb 23, 2023

Otis said:
That's surely been through conditioning though isn't it.

She was groomed and brainwashed and conditioned into believing the ways of IS.

I have seen the same happening in religion over here. You can be bombarded and groomed and conditioned into believing in something.

I know it's only a TV show, but Derren Brown once did an experiment and he got this girl who was a complete atheist, into believing in God. All through conditioning and suggestion and manipulation.

And this is not my sticking up for Shamima Begum. I hate what she has done and what she became.

I really don't know what the answer is, but she was just 15 and was without any shadow of a doubt, conditioned and groomed.

How we now turn that around I don't know. How easy is it to "deprogram" someone?

Of course she was 'programmed', but would that not be the argument for every terrorist? If she'd gone a year later at 16 she would have still been brainwashed but would be held more accountable for that.

For example, if a child here grows up in a family where the mother is abused by the father, does it excuse that child if they grow up abusing women? They've been brainwashed into thinking that's the right way from an early age.

TomRad85 · Feb 23, 2023

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Of course she was 'programmed', but would that not be the argument for every terrorist? If she'd gone a year later at 16 she would have still been brainwashed but would be held more accountable for that.

For example, if a child here grows up in a family where the mother is abused by the father, does it excuse that child if they grow up abusing women? They've been brainwashed into thinking that's the right way from an early age.

You're correct. Every one of those fuckwits that joined ISIS was 'programmed'. Its very bizarre people want to defend this girl, she's become a fucking victim in this thread. SBT madness.

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clint van damme · Feb 23, 2023

TomRad85 said:
Would she even be safe in this country? Not that I care, I'm amazed so many of you are even bothered what happens to this stupid woman.

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I'm not bothered about her, I'm bothered about mine, and everyone else's citizenship status being in the hands of reactionary crackpots like Braverman and Patel.

TomRad85 · Feb 23, 2023

clint van damme said:
I'm not bothered about her, I'm bothered about mine, and everyone else's citizenship status being in the hands of reactionary crackpots like Braverman and Patel.

Keeping this bitch out of the country is one of few things those useless fucks have got right. Once you fuck off to ISIS you can say bye bye to Britain as far as I'm concerned.

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clint van damme · Feb 23, 2023

TomRad85 said:
Keeping this bitch out of the country is one of few things those useless fucks have got right. Once you fuck off to ISIS you can say bye bye to Britain as far as I'm concerned.

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You can't run a country like that.

For what its worth I think Begum is very cold, very calculating and appears to have a frightening lack of empathy and no remorse, but that's irrelevant really.
We have to do things correctly and follow the proper processes.

TomRad85 · Feb 23, 2023

clint van damme said:
You can't run a country like that.

For what its worth I think Begum is very cold, very calculating and appears to have a frightening lack of empathy and no remorse, but that's irrelevant really.
We have to do things correctly and follow the proper processes.

You've read her exactly how I've read her. But I'll disagree with your views, keeping terrorists out the country is ok with me. No sane person wants to end up living next door to that psychopath or any of her mates and no one should have to.

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clint van damme · Feb 23, 2023

TomRad85 said:
You've read her exactly how I've read her. But I'll disagree with your views, keeping terrorists out the country is ok with me. No sane person wants to end up living next door to that psychopath or any of her mates and no one should have to.

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The problem with a crackpot like Braverman is it won't stop with terrorists when she's playing up to her right wing gallery.
We're having our rights eroded bit by bit by these people.

And if we're seen as playing fast and loose with international law I guarantee you that an innocent UK citizen will get into a problematic situation abroad and this will be thrown back in the face of any diplomat tryng to sort it.

If it transpires that she has dual citizenship and Bangladesh are willing to take her then great but let's see how it plays out.
It's easy to be emotive but you have to look beyond 'shes a bitch fuck her' even though that's an understandable reaction.

TomRad85 · Feb 23, 2023

clint van damme said:
The problem with a crackpot like Braverman is it won't stop with terrorists when she's playing up to her right wing gallery.
We're having our rights eroded bit by bit by these people.

And if we're seen as playing fast and loose with international law I guarantee you that an innocent UK citizen will get into a problematic situation abroad and this will be thrown back in the face of any diplomat tryng to sort it.

If it transpires that she has dual citizenship and Bangladesh are willing to take her then great but let's see how it plays out.
It's easy to be emotive but you have to look beyond 'shes a bitch fuck her' even though that's an understandable reaction.

Nice response, I've taken it in, I see where you're coming from, i appreciate you see her for what she is unlike some of the madness above and yet I still can't bring myself to give a shit

keeping terrorists out of the country I'd imagine is fairly popular outside of what you'd consider the fringe right, be amazed if there were more against this than for it tbh.

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clint van damme · Feb 23, 2023

TomRad85 said:
Nice response, I've taken it in, I see where you're coming from, i appreciate you see her for what she is unlike some of the madness above and yet I still can't bring myself to give a shit
keeping terrorists out of the country I'd imagine is fairly popular outside of what you'd consider the fringe right, be amazed if there were more against this than for it tbh.

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To be fair to those saying she was groomed Rhiannan Rudd wasn't charged with terror offences because it was deemed she was groomed so I can see why it's relevant.

However, Begum is an intelligent girl and for someone who saw the friends she went to Syria with die, her 3 children die and witnessed atrocities including beheadings her whole demeanor is unnerving in my opinion.

Grendel · Feb 23, 2023

TomRad85 said:
Keeping this bitch out of the country is one of few things those useless fucks have got right. Once you fuck off to ISIS you can say bye bye to Britain as far as I'm concerned.

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You in the end cannot revoke citizenship in a democratic society. Even if it’s through gritted teeth she has to be allowed back and dealt with through the judiciary - it’s a nightmare scenario but denying citizenship is the isis society ideology not ours

TomRad85 · Feb 23, 2023

Grendel said:
You in the end cannot revoke citizenship in a democratic society. Even if it’s through gritted teeth she has to be allowed back and dealt with through the judiciary - it’s a nightmare scenario but denying citizenship is the isis society ideology not ours

Well on the plus side for me if it proves a popular decision for the centre and the centre right, which i think it is, Starmer will probably adopt as policy too.

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