So how well SHOULD Thorn be doing? (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter CJparker
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Jack Griffin
Guest
Argument I was trying to have yesterday. If the squad is shit he is a poor scout, if it is good he is a poor manager! Can't have both
I can't agree with your argument, some of the decent players he brought in have gone because the owners failed to obtain a transfer before their contract ran out. Others like Best & Juke went for a mark up, that is necessary business.
Who did he bring into the current team? Baker, MacDonald, Deegan, Keogh & Murphy probably, Bell & Wood and Eastwood, were they recommended by Thorn or Coleman? Platt, was a Bothroyd man, McSheff, Clingan & Cranie, hardly unknowns.
Meanwhile a few players he identified & brought in like Henderson & Madine are doing OK, they didn't want to stay here.
McPake & ROD, probably count as failures as it stands, they've gone on loan, might be back next year.
Anyway there are several issues here
1) AT didn't make the final decision under previous managerial regimes
2) Neither you or I know details of the decision making process for any particular player
3) AT isn't being funded to bring in the players he really wants
To conclude, we are in the c**p, the situation is disappointing, but we are in the dark about so much. I couldn't really say who is to blame exactly.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
It seems it changes depending on your argument.
I have also seen people suggest Thorn signed players before he was even here. (Dann & Fox were here under Dowie, Thorn didn't come in until Coleman.)
@richh87
Member
Good post Jack.
I'm surprised we haven't been cut adrift this season.
The sudden turning on Thorn is mental considering our home form. It seems some can't take losing a one off game to Forest.
If he keeps us up he's proven himself to be a good manager. The players are giving their all - we just need SISU to dust off the cheque book and make a difference to this threadbare squad.
We've got kids In the team and kids on the bench - it's unacceptable.
Nick
Administrator
I agree we don't know the decision making behind it or WHO he signed, it was generally in reply to how Nimely and Norwood only came here because of him and how he discovered Carroll and Henderson.
You say that we have kids in the team but Thorn has put some of them there on merit like Bigi, Thomas and Christie.
Our home form has improved over the last few home games (I really hope it continues) but as our away form is shocking surely that says something about the tactics rather than the squad?
You say that we have kids in the team but Thorn has put some of them there on merit like Bigi, Thomas and Christie.
Our home form has improved over the last few home games (I really hope it continues) but as our away form is shocking surely that says something about the tactics rather than the squad?
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Agree with some of that but
The current situation is not because of changing managers too often thats a contributory factor though.
I think you can only give a manager 5 or 6 years if he comes to you at the start with the right detailed knowledge and experience. I wouldnt say that AT had that or anywhere close last March
You also have to be very clear in the plan and the level of failure you are prepared to accept. You also need to be very strong and clear with the fans who rightly dont accept failure very easily (they are afterall paying good money to see highly paid players and managers achieve)
The fly in the ointment for AT is really the disparity between home and away results. Even below average results in both would have seen us out of the bottom 3. We are a long way short away from home and any manager has to have the ability to address such inconsistency. It hasnt happened so you have to ask why and because of who - home results indicate the stock answer of SISU fault will not do
What the AT in brigade need to define is what level of failure is acceptable and properly justify it not just say it is SISU's fault
Truth is at most other clubs AT would have got the sack by now because of the results - in part our particular circumstances keep him in the position. Thats not saying AT doesnt have skills clearly he does. However most fans would say the current level of failure is not acceptable - not all AT's fault no but we all know thats not how football works
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Well thats the thing. Why do we perform at home but not away? Tactics wrong when we go away?
Forest was a massive game and we went there with the wrong mentality. Everyone could see they were there for the taking. There fans were booing getting on the players back etc... yet there keeper didn't make one save all game. We were too cautious final third.
We should have attacked from the start and put pressure on. Thorn missed a trick that day which could prove costly.
Nick
Administrator
It is because SISU don't invest in players.
People don't seem to have an excuse for Thorn's tactics away and blame something other than tactics, even though it is the same 11 players.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
I get the impression people want to keep Thorn in charge because they know his failings keep the pressure up on SISU, they are worried in case a new manager starts getting results and the anger towards SISU disappears.
What they fail to realise is that it is likely SISU will be here next season.
Did the pro-Thorn posters refuse to judge Boothroyd until he was given the same budget as Coleman? When MaCallister didn't have the same budget as Strachan & Nilsson?
What they fail to realise is that it is likely SISU will be here next season.
Did the pro-Thorn posters refuse to judge Boothroyd until he was given the same budget as Coleman? When MaCallister didn't have the same budget as Strachan & Nilsson?
singers_pore
Well-Known Member
Argument I was trying to have yesterday. If the squad is shit he is a poor scout, if it is good he is a poor manager! Can't have both
I personally think under achieving and that with the players we have now we shouldn't be where we are.
Imagine you are someone who has a really good ability to find undervalued cars. Your boss gives you 300 quid to buy the best motor you can possibly find.
You buy a car for 300 that is actually worth about 600. But the car is still crap.
Think about it...
Then check the wage spend at Coventry versus the wage spend at other clubs in the Championship.
Do you get it now??
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
If CCFC stay up this year you could argue the following
1) AT was a good enough manager to keep us up
2) the squad was good enough to stay up
3) we should make more use of our youngsters
4) you dont have to spend millions over the top in wages and signings to stay in the division
5) you dont need such a big squad of players
6) SISU were right to appoint AT
7) SISU were right to tighten the purse strings
Now i am not saying that it is that simple but staying up could justify all or most of that. Nor am i coming out as a rabid SISU supporter most definitely not one. But it is one possible scenario and it has all sorts of implications going forward
1) AT was a good enough manager to keep us up
2) the squad was good enough to stay up
3) we should make more use of our youngsters
4) you dont have to spend millions over the top in wages and signings to stay in the division
5) you dont need such a big squad of players
6) SISU were right to appoint AT
7) SISU were right to tighten the purse strings
Now i am not saying that it is that simple but staying up could justify all or most of that. Nor am i coming out as a rabid SISU supporter most definitely not one. But it is one possible scenario and it has all sorts of implications going forward
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Where are Leicester in the league? How much have they spent on transfer and wages?
Thorn believes we are mid-table squad and that we are under-achieving. Do you disagree with him?
It is not protecting the players or raising confidence, it is a damning assessment of their season from Thorn.
Otis
Well-Known Member
Of course it does, Forest, a case in point last week. Thorn thought we were doing fine and didn't look in any trouble in the first half. All well and good and most certainly true, but we could all see as fans that Forest were there for the taking and we should have gone for the throat from the off.
What we got however was a cautious, keep it tight and retain possession game from the Sky Blues. Now no-one could argue that tactic has served us well in away games can they. No-one could argue that point as the results prove otherwise.
Seems clearly apparent that away from home we are too cautious and try to keep possession and keep it all tight. In view of the fact that pretty much every game away from home this season we have made terrible gaffes at the back that have resulted in goals and defeats, you would have thought we might try and consider having the ball a bit more in the opposition half.
Some games against tough opposition of course you have to keep it tight. Forest was not one of those games though. There were 3 vital points in the offing and they had only scored once in eight homes games. That in turn should have dictated our tactics somewhat and encouraged us to throw a bit more caution to the wind and go on the offensive.
I'm pretty sure that we are all going to look back at that Forest game and say "That was our big chance. Had we won that one then maybe, just maybe we would have stayed up."
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Nick
Administrator
If the squad is so poor why can we win at home but the same 11 players are awful away?
Otis
Well-Known Member
singers_pore
Well-Known Member
They have spent a huge amount and they are therefore under-achieving.
We have spent nothing but sold lots...hence our position in the table.
What AT says to the media and what he says in private are two completely different things.
Do you remember that clip on Sky Blue World when in an unguarded moment AT said that our strikers are poor? He would never say that to the media because it would be unprofessional. He knows the quality of the squad is poor ... anyone with a pair of eyes can see that.
In my opinion, the squad is poor not because AT is a bad scout but rather because we spend less on players than any other club in the division. For the money we have (not) spent, I am actually surprised we still have an outside chance of staying up.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
errr if it is worth 600 you sell it on quick and you have 600 to try again ? assuming you havent got to take your wages overheads and other costs out of the profit.
Will be interested to see how these so called better players on higher wages negotiate their next deal under the FFP rules - got a feeling where our lads hold their earning potential a lot of others are looking at big cuts in earnings
IF and it is a very big IF we stay up then might it not indicate amongst other things that clubs pay far above actual value in wages ?
FFP is going to hit a lot of clubs hard - see David Sullivans comments re WHU. It is about time Clubs started living in the real world where responsibility counts
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Sick Boy
Super Moderator
If you believe that then what the hell is he doing saying we have a mid-table squad and we are underachieving?!
He is saying the squad has failed so far this season and putting further pressure on them.
singers_pore
Well-Known Member
Teams always do better at home than they do away. It's not that much of a mystery that our home form is better.
Just because we can win a few games does not mean we have a good squad. If you transplanted any League 2 team and put them in the Championship for a season, I would imagine they would be able to chalk up a few wins, particularly at home.
Fact is most of our players are League 1/2 standard and it shows. AT won't say that publicly because he has to keep the players on side trying their hardest for him.
Nick
Administrator
The thing is that didn't he scout most of them?
Otis
Well-Known Member
Better? That is the undersatement of the year. We are the worst away team in the entire Footbal League. How can we win 5 out of 6 at home yet lose 9 on the trot away?
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
The likes of Platt, ROD and co were never intended as first team contenders. *Never*. ROD was planned, at the very most, for some squad rotation and to perhaps have come off the bench a few times if things were desperate. Platt, equally, was signed specifically to be an impact player, and even then, not to be relied upon for 90, or even 180, minutes a week that we're asking of him. McPake when fully fit I think is a good quality centre half-but his fitness issues, a bit like David McNamee, have become pretty well known here, and if his mind's in Scotland, we'll never see the best of him.
We're currently 3 points off safety, despite having the stand out worst away record in the entire Football League-what does that show? If Thorn utilised the same tactics at home as he did away, we would quite probably have a nice cushion between ourselves and the bottom 3. The current set up is patently not working, and all those in the 'leave Thorn alone' camp need to accept that this is where he is lacking.
We're currently 3 points off safety, despite having the stand out worst away record in the entire Football League-what does that show? If Thorn utilised the same tactics at home as he did away, we would quite probably have a nice cushion between ourselves and the bottom 3. The current set up is patently not working, and all those in the 'leave Thorn alone' camp need to accept that this is where he is lacking.
singers_pore
Well-Known Member
Yes, he did. And given the wages that we offer and the transfer fees we have paid, I think that on the whole the players are about as good as we can expect.
Take Keogh for example. He's a very good acquisition given how much we paid for him. But that doesn't make Keogh a great player in teh Champtionship by any stretch of the imagination.
Look at our best players who left last year. Westwood is probably the best player we have had over the past decade but he cannot hold down a first team place in the Premiership. Gunnarsson was one of our best midfielders (although inconsistent) and he is in and out of the Cardiff side. When he moved to Cardiff, Gunnarsson said that he expected that it would be harder for him to get into Cardiff's first team than it had been to get into ours. Why? Because he recognizes that our squad is relatively weak and so he was virtually guaranteed a first team spot at City. What about Juke? Our top scorer this season and our main asset who is now just an also-ran in the Middlesbrough squad. I am not dissing those guys we sold. It's just that they looked good for us because there is so much crud elsewhere in the team.
At the end of the day, wages explain around 90% of the variation in league position according to academic research. Given that our wages appear to be the lowest in the league, it is no surprise we are near the bottom of the table.
Managerial ability has only a very small effect on league position, statisticians have found that a top manager is worth just a handful of points over the course of the season. If we had Mourinho maybe we would have another 5-6 points. If our manager were Peter Reid or Coleman (god forbid) I reckon we would have about 5-6 points less than we do currently.
In short AT is not the messiah, but neither should he be the scapegoat for our financial failings.
DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe
New Member
Can I make what I would have considered a blindingly obvious point..?
The fans who do not want Thorn to be sacked at this point do not think he is 100% divorced from blame for our current predicament. If there is a single fan on here who believes that Andy Thorn as manager has not been responsible for any errors or dropped points, speak now or forever hold your piece...
It is not that he can do no wrong and it is not that SISU absolve every other party of blame as such. When someone is suggesting Thorn Out and you do not agree, you talk about the positives, the constraints and the shades of grey. For this reason, it may appear to the likes of SickBoy that Thorn can do no wrong with some and is untouchable. This is categorically not the case. We take his actions within the context of SISU. That is all. In much the same way, the Thorn Out lot get accused of finding ammunition in every last detail to add credence to their desire to replace the manager (press conference, loanees who have not made their debut, etc, etc.) . This is for the exact same reason... you are arguing your point and backing it up with reasons. I would imagine also that the vast majority of them do not hold Thorn 100% responsible (i.e. with SISU and the players devoid of blame).
This debate is really taking the edge off this forum for me, which shouldn't be any of your concern. I just wish that both sides could take comments at face value and try to consider both sides.
Now that I have got that off my chest, here is the truth...
We should have picked up more points away.
Thorn makes some tactical failings and questionable substitutions (or lack thereof).
SISU dictate the playing staff through their financial constraints (I categorically believe that Thorn has recently been effectively told to expect a fire sale and I expect SISU to remain in post until the close season at the very least as a result).
EVERYONE is dissatisfied at not getting out of the relegation zone.
The team needs our support.
Whether you want Thorn Out or not, I would actually question how much difference it really makes right now. He is in post. SISU have not completed the 'listen to a fucking word your fans say' mandatory training. We are in the biggest relegation fight in recent memory, with the most limited squad. If he keeps us up, I will applaud him. If he takes us down, I won't blame him exclusively. My opinion... I won't force it on you or give two shits if you disagree. But I am going to vocally support the team and manager from now until the end of the season and think it is a bit of a shame if anyone withholds that just because they are disillusioned with Andy Thorn.
The fans who do not want Thorn to be sacked at this point do not think he is 100% divorced from blame for our current predicament. If there is a single fan on here who believes that Andy Thorn as manager has not been responsible for any errors or dropped points, speak now or forever hold your piece...
It is not that he can do no wrong and it is not that SISU absolve every other party of blame as such. When someone is suggesting Thorn Out and you do not agree, you talk about the positives, the constraints and the shades of grey. For this reason, it may appear to the likes of SickBoy that Thorn can do no wrong with some and is untouchable. This is categorically not the case. We take his actions within the context of SISU. That is all. In much the same way, the Thorn Out lot get accused of finding ammunition in every last detail to add credence to their desire to replace the manager (press conference, loanees who have not made their debut, etc, etc.) . This is for the exact same reason... you are arguing your point and backing it up with reasons. I would imagine also that the vast majority of them do not hold Thorn 100% responsible (i.e. with SISU and the players devoid of blame).
This debate is really taking the edge off this forum for me, which shouldn't be any of your concern. I just wish that both sides could take comments at face value and try to consider both sides.
Now that I have got that off my chest, here is the truth...
We should have picked up more points away.
Thorn makes some tactical failings and questionable substitutions (or lack thereof).
SISU dictate the playing staff through their financial constraints (I categorically believe that Thorn has recently been effectively told to expect a fire sale and I expect SISU to remain in post until the close season at the very least as a result).
EVERYONE is dissatisfied at not getting out of the relegation zone.
The team needs our support.
Whether you want Thorn Out or not, I would actually question how much difference it really makes right now. He is in post. SISU have not completed the 'listen to a fucking word your fans say' mandatory training. We are in the biggest relegation fight in recent memory, with the most limited squad. If he keeps us up, I will applaud him. If he takes us down, I won't blame him exclusively. My opinion... I won't force it on you or give two shits if you disagree. But I am going to vocally support the team and manager from now until the end of the season and think it is a bit of a shame if anyone withholds that just because they are disillusioned with Andy Thorn.
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Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
The majority of City fans I'd say are actually somewhere in the middle-it's the polar opposites that do my, and yours, and everyone else's heads in here. OTT criticism is met by OTT defences-and it only takes one 'Thorn's the worst manager we've ever had' or 'Thorn is a fantastic manager and nobody could do better' to start it all off. Once someone does, the thread's essentially a write-off.
singers_pore
Well-Known Member
I never said that did I. In my opinion there are three reasons for our financial failings:
1. No revenue from parking, food sales, etc. plus additional expense of 1m+ for renting the stadium. CULPRITS = the pre-SISU board.
2. Most clubs are apparently willing to continually spend more than they earn. Nearly all clubs are making losses and SISU have decided to no longer follow the crowd in that respect. CULPRITS = SISU because they entered an industry they did not understand.
3. For a city of our size, the number of paying customers we get is rather poor. CULPRITS = fans (although I think we all have some sympathy for our fans given our distinct lack of success over the past 25 years).
Noone can be 100% sure when making such a claim. But, yes, in my opinion Coleman and Reid are worse than Thorn. I think we would have fewer points than we currently do if those guys had been in charge this year.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
There are quite a few who seem to absolve Thorn of any blame and continue to blame SISU for everything, even our poor away form, neglecting his failings as a manager.
Of course it is not all down to Thorn, SISU are responsible for employing him and keeping him in charge when he is clearly not up to the job.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Spending money we didn't have has got us into this mess in the first place. SISU have never claimed to understand the industry, that is why Ranson was fronting them.
J
Jack Griffin
Guest
SISU rely on managers who are supposed to know what they are doing in the industry, they are money people, Fisher is doing a lot better than Orange Ken in my opinion.
DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe
New Member
No. Stop, read, consider. There are startingly few who absolve Thorn of any blame whatsoever. Find one on here who says he has not made a single error or cost us a single point. And your point that SISU are only to blame because they hired Thorn just pisses over my theory that there are few people who genuinely blame Thorn for everything and can't see the wood for the trees.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Are you denying there are posters who have claimed they won't judge Thorn until he has had the same resources as previous managers? There have been claims he is the best manager since Sillett!
DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe
New Member
No. I am saying that the vast majority, on either side of the divide, can accept both sides have their accuracies. I am saying that most of the 'Thorn In' brigade do not absolve him of every last portion of blame. That he can do wrong in their eyes. That he is not untouchable. That they do not want to be relegated. I am saying that they see his performance within the constraints of SISU. SISU have cut costs on the playing staff and Thorn has a limited squad. He is a rookie manager, no one expected him to be a world beater. He gets blamed by some for more than he should. He gets blamed by some for less than he should. The argument is not black and white, no one is claiming it is. There's perspective to be had, go find it!