So where would we be better off (8 Viewers)

torchomatic · Jun 2, 2013

True for wherever we are and whoever owns us. If Preston bought us tomorrow and got hold of the Ricoh. We wouldn't own it, he and his companies would. Same if it was the Chinese consortium.

And we're royally buggered if we stay and the Ricoh and things don't change. If SISU left tomorrow the new saviours would struggle just as much while ACL are leaching off us.

cloughie said:
Any new stadium would never be owned by CCFC only rented from sisu

If anyone believes different then you are more gullible than I could ever have imagined

lifelongcityfan · Jun 2, 2013

Current debt 60m
new ground 30m
losses over 3 years 10m
additional interest over next 3 years 10m
No investment in squad during that time = relegation

oh, and by the way

when we have racked up 110m debt, the interest will be 600-700k a year, and the Ricoh Rent 400K
Gates are highere at the Ricoh, not all fans desert

By the way these are Tims figures not mine!

Bluegloucester · Jun 2, 2013

SkyBlue_Taylor said:
And renting our stadium for 1.28m p/a whilst we get no revenue streams from it has contributed greatly to our current demise.

How much do you think it would cost to borrow £30m pa?

Mucca Mad Boys · Jun 2, 2013

lifelongcityfan said:
Current debt 60m
new ground 30m
losses over 3 years 12m
additional interest over next 3 years 10m

oh, and by the way

when we have racked up 110m debt, the interest will be 600-700k a year, and the Rich Rent 400K

By the way these are Tims figures not mine!

Fair enough, but when the mortgage is paid off.

This is why I've specifically said that LONG TERM, it'd be better than renting, short term I've admitted it's better to rent - but that's not the bigger picture.

rustyredline · Jun 2, 2013

SkyBlue_Taylor said:
Parasite: - An organism that lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the host's expense. derogatory. A person who habitually relies on or exploits others and gives nothing in return.

I think that could applied to ACL as well.

Not really ACL are the hosts and sisu are the parasite in that analogy as they own the ricoh and sisu have tried to starve them of funds til death. How much of CCFC ltd debt is actually owed to ACL. If ACL are a parasite sisu are an epidemic.

Mucca Mad Boys · Jun 2, 2013

Bluegloucester said:
How much do you think it would cost to borrow £30m pa?

I wouldn't know.

Like Grendel said, revenue is king, if you have a lot of revenue, you can take on more debt, at the RICOH, the problem is, we get nothing from it, if we owned our stadium, we'd save because we don't have to pay rent and make profit off the stadium so you can pay debt progressively.

Bluegloucester · Jun 2, 2013

SkyBlue_Taylor said:
Fair enough, but when the mortgage is paid off.

This is why I've specifically said that LONG TERM, it'd be better than renting, short term I've admitted it's better to rent - but that's not the bigger picture.

If we build a cheap stadium for £30m it would need major renovations within 20 years, we would not be debt free.

lifelongcityfan · Jun 2, 2013

SBT

For the club to pay the debt (including 30m mortgage) off of 110m, even at 2mill p.a it would take 27.5 years.
For CCFC to pay the mortgage off, we would have to make a profit...we havent made a profit for years. If ccfc attempt to pay the mortgage off, there will be even less funds for players.

I, and most fans on here would be dead by the time the mortgage was paid or even partly paid!!

I am afraid under SISU we will have more debt and a weaker team

( By the way , I am an accountant, and do have a good understanding of Finance)

Bluegloucester · Jun 2, 2013

SkyBlue_Taylor said:
I wouldn't know.

Like Grendel said, revenue is king, if you have a lot of revenue, you can take on more debt, at the RICOH, the problem is, we get nothing from it, if we owned our stadium, we'd save because we don't have to pay rent and make profit off the stadium so you can pay debt progressively.

We have c£70m of debt, how much more do you want? Building a new crap stadium will only add to this, how do we service this debt? You really have no idea!

Broken Hearted Sky Blue · Jun 2, 2013

SkyBlue_Taylor said:
Fair enough, but when the mortgage is paid off.

This is why I've specifically said that LONG TERM, it'd be better than renting, short term I've admitted it's better to rent - but that's not the bigger picture.

So let me get this right in the long term owning is better than renting?

Mucca Mad Boys · Jun 2, 2013

rustyredline said:
Not really ACL are the hosts and sisu are the parasite in that analogy as they own the ricoh and ccfc couldn't afford to build it. How much of CCFC ltd debt is actually owed to ACL. If ACL are a parasite sisu are an epidemic.

No, ACL are earning off the fruits off CCFC's labour, we brought the site, which the Council decontaminated for Tesco (their money helped pay for RICOH) and when we moved there, we paid 1.28m, a rip off, but worse still, we get no revenue off CCFC events - morally wrong IMO - and ACL benefit because a football club is there, sponsors etc. ACL have been the biggest benefactors of our plight, it's their pocket's we've been lining whilst ironically, SISU's pockets now have a massive hole in it now.

RogerH · Jun 2, 2013

Oh dear, so naive. It wouldn't be OUR stadium, it would be SISU's stadium, and yes, we would pay rent to SISU. The debt would multiply, who is to prevent SISU from borrowing for any purpose, and forcing the club to pay for it. The football club would have no control over SISU's actions. This idea of rent free ownership is an illusion, promoted by SISU and Fisher's clever propaganda, which, regrettably some seem to be swallowing.

lifelongcityfan · Jun 2, 2013

RogerH said:
Oh dear, so naive. It wouldn't be OUR stadium, it would be SISU's stadium, and yes, we would pay rent to SISU. The debt would multiply, who is to prevent SISU from borrowing for any purpose, and forcing the club to pay for it. The football club would have no control over SISU's actions. This idea of rent free ownership is an illusion, promoted by SISU and Fisher's clever propaganda, which, regrettably some seem to be swallowing.

SPOT ON- refer my earlier post..We would have huge debts,crap ground, poor crowds, less Revenue, Bigger Losses.

SBT and others that support this move...IT DOES NOT MAKE FINANCIAL SENSE

Mucca Mad Boys · Jun 2, 2013

Broken Hearted Sky Blue said:
So let me get this right in the long term owning is better than renting?

Yes, That's a fairly simple concept.

If you were on the property ladder, looking for a permanent home, would you buy or rent? You'd buy because although you have massive debt and a mortgage to pay initially it's difficult, but you enjoy having no mortgage to pay once you've paid it, but if you rent, you continue paying until you move.

It's ironic that some on here have said, renting is cheaper (which in the very long term, it isn't) than owning your stadium, some of those people have said why don't we buy ACL instead - well - where would the money come from as you've asked me? Plus ACL wouldn't sell for 30m IMO.

grego_gee · Jun 2, 2013

lifelongcityfan said:
SBT

For the club to pay the debt (including 30m mortgage) off of 110m, even at 2mill p.a it would take 27.5 years.
For CCFC to pay the mortgage off, we would have to make a profit...we havent made a profit for years. If ccfc attempt to pay the mortgage off, there will be even less funds for players.

I, and most fans on here would be dead by the time the mortgage was paid or even partly paid!!

I am afraid under SISU we will have more debt and a weaker team

( By the way , I am an accountant, and do have a good understanding of Finance)

Sounds like you are scared they will give you a demand for the £70m?

Relax, they owe themselves £69.4m!
And they don't need or want to pay that off, it's kept there to repel boarders and the tax man.
All they really owe is £0.6m to ACL!...

imp:

Broken Hearted Sky Blue · Jun 2, 2013

SkyBlue_Taylor said:
Yes, That's a fairly simple concept.

If you were on the property ladder, looking for a permanent home, would you buy or rent? You'd buy because although you have massive debt and a mortgage to pay initially it's difficult, but you enjoy having no mortgage to pay once you've paid it, but if you rent, you continue paying until you move.

It's ironic that some on here have said, renting is cheaper (which in the very long term, it isn't) than owning your stadium, some of those people have said why don't we buy ACL instead - well - where would the money come from as you've asked me? Plus ACL wouldn't sell for 30m IMO.

So Sisu dont understand fairly simple concepts then? Why do they rent offices in Mayfair and not build? Or buy a building? Are they not in it for the long term?

Mucca Mad Boys · Jun 2, 2013

lifelongcityfan said:
SPOT ON- refer my earlier post..We would have huge debts,crap ground, poor crowds, less Revenue, Bigger Losses.

SBT and others that support this move...IT DOES NOT MAKE FINANCIAL SENSE

Less revenue? Where do you get that from? We. Don't. Get. Any. Revenue! That's the problem!

Where have I said I support this move? You're making up things I've said.

In the short term, there are more losses, but long term - that isn't the case.

Why do we need a complex stadium? HR was just fine and that was basic, but it was sustainable.

Black6Osprey · Jun 2, 2013

SkyBlue_Taylor said:
Fair enough, but when the mortgage is paid off.

This is why I've specifically said that LONG TERM, it'd be better than renting, short term I've admitted it's better to rent - but that's not the bigger picture.

We won't reach the LONG TERM with that level of debt. Yes to own a stadium would be great and if you say it quick what's another £30M plus interest but come on let's think about it.

Bluegloucester · Jun 2, 2013

SkyBlue_Taylor said:
Yes, That's a fairly simple concept.

If you were on the property ladder, looking for a permanent home, would you buy or rent? You'd buy because although you have massive debt and a mortgage to pay initially it's difficult, but you enjoy having no mortgage to pay once you've paid it, but if you rent, you continue paying until you move.

It's ironic that some on here have said, renting is cheaper (which in the very long term, it isn't) than owning your stadium, some of those people have said why don't we buy ACL instead - well - where would the money come from as you've asked me? Plus ACL wouldn't sell for 30m IMO.

You are comparing residential and commercial properties, totally different commodities. Sisu would have to pay 5% plus for a commercial mortgage, this doesn't take into account maintainence costs and rates (with no rebate for partial use). Most businesses rent/lease their properties because over the long term it is cheaper overall.

tisza · Jun 2, 2013

We do get revenue from hospitality etc.
The disputed income sources are matchday food and drink which on crowds of 10k don't amount to a fat lot anyway.

Grendel · Jun 2, 2013

sky blue john said:
pointless as usual Grendel !!!

Pointless? That's what we were always under your fat friend thorn so I assume that's a compliment.

Sick Boy · Jun 2, 2013

According to the brains on here he was one of our greatest managers in recent years, I wonder why no one has snapped him up yet? Maybe he's being lined up as the next England manager?

Grendel · Jun 2, 2013

Sick Boy said:
According to the brains on here he was one of our greatest managers in recent years, I wonder why no one has snapped him up yet? Maybe he's being lined up as the next England manager?

Strangely many of those same brains also want ACL to thrive and prosper regardless of the impact on the football club.

Why that is people must draw their own conclusions.

sky blue john · Jun 2, 2013

sbt you still don't get it imagine buying a property having a big fat mortgage to pay but at the same time be paying rent on the property you own.

sky blue john · Jun 2, 2013

Grendel said:
Strangely many of those same brains also want ACL to thrive and prosper regardless of the impact on the football club.

Why that is people must draw their own conclusions.

its only you that bangs on about acl all the time they have nothing to do with ccfc other than someone we owe a small amount of money to.
We owe Sisu 70 million that's a bigger concern !!!!!

Sick Boy · Jun 2, 2013

Anyone who invests in a club only loans that money to the club.

Mucca Mad Boys · Jun 2, 2013

sky blue john said:
sbt you still don't get it imagine buying a property having a big fat mortgage to pay but at the same time be paying rent on the property you own.

Where has it been said that we'll rent this new stadium? - No conspiracy theories please - not like the MR backhander.

I can't even believe I'm having this argument because:
- We won't even leave Coventry
- Therefore, we definitely won't build a new stadium
- I don't even want the club to build a new stadium - as I've already said, owning > renting, but, owning 50% (with view to 100%) of RICOH > building new stadium (what you've conveniently missed to meet your own ends) that we own.
- SISU don't all of CCFC therefore, nothing can even be done before that, and I don't think they'll get full control, nor want them to - but someone did raise a good point by saying we may not reach that long term - but promotion would alleviate that - which is possible.

- It's quite clear that owning your stadium (that's the given situation) is much more economically viable than renting in the long term - that's not a difficult concept and over time (whether it be 100 years!) owning your stadium will be better. Even if heavily burdened to begin with.

Nonleagueherewecome · Jun 2, 2013

SkyBlue_Taylor said:
What maths when there aren't any figures to add up?!

If the club has lost c. 10m in renting the RICOH already, in less than 10 years, how is that sustainable? That's 10m we would've saved had we owned our stadium.

Owning or renting! Owning is more economically viable in the long term - 10, 20, 30 years, over some period of time owning your stadium become more economically viable than renting. That's what we all (should) want, a long term plan for a successful club.

If you think it's just about parking and F&B then you seriously don't have a clue.

If people are still talking about the OP rather than just having the usual arguments, then there's only one figure that you need to understand: 15,000 capacity stadium=not sustainable for a Premiership club. We would be more than halving the clubs potential and it would finish my interest in the club for good.

Colin1883 · Jun 2, 2013

Who would pay maintenance costs for this new ground?

Who would pay for the new ground to be extended in the unlikely event that it needed?

Mucca Mad Boys · Jun 2, 2013

Nonleagueherewecome said:
If people are still talking about the OP rather than just having the usual arguments, then there's only one figure that you need to understand: 15,000 capacity stadium=not sustainable for a Premiership club. We would be more than halving the clubs potential and it would finish my interest in the club for good.

Lets not kid ourselves, we aren't a premiership club anymore, you have to earn the right to call yourself Premiership club, we're in L1 and get attendances of 10k including ST holders who may not even go... We're embarrassing ourselves, Pompey managed to get more than us and their situation is far, far worse than ours! We feel sorry for ourselves too much!

I can't see it being 15k at all, it has to be 20k minimum, maybe 25k which is sustainable. Even SISU must aim to get back into the Championship within the 3 years it'll supposedly take to build this mysterious stadium (which won't be built).

Mucca Mad Boys · Jun 2, 2013

Colin1883 said:
Who would pay maintenance costs for this new ground?

Who would pay for the new ground to be extended in the unlikely event that it needed?

Maintenance costs would neutralised by either F&B or money we don't spend on rent, so we'd profit on one or the other... I don't know because this stadium doesn't exist so we don't have any figures, it's purely hypothetical.

2nd question

Depends what the capacity is, it might not need extending.

Colin1883 · Jun 2, 2013

So if f n b are effectively negated by running costs for the stadium that would rule out one of the main reasons for building it?

Bluegloucester · Jun 2, 2013

SkyBlue_Taylor said:
Maintenance costs would neutralised by either F&B or money we don't spend on rent, so we'd profit on one or the other... I don't know because this stadium doesn't exist so we don't have any figures, it's purely hypothetical.

2nd question

Depends what the capacity is, it might not need extending.

If we don't pay rent we pay off a loan, hardly neutralised.

CCFC PimpRail · Jun 2, 2013

SkyBlue_Taylor said:
- It's quite clear that owning your stadium (that's the given situation) is much more economically viable than renting in the long term - that's not a difficult concept and over time (whether it be 100 years!) owning your stadium will be better. Even if heavily burdened to begin with.

Suppose you own your 100yr old stadium, but recognise it needs major investment for ongoing repairs and improvements that you don't have the cash for, what would you do...?

Considering the number of companies within CCFC (even before SISU), the statement "we own our stadium" is a littke off the mark as it certainly would come under separate management, with figures for rent being quoted as money is moved around to satisfy the taxman/shareholders/creditors.

Quite simply, Football is a terrible business to be in....

Mucca Mad Boys · Jun 2, 2013

Bluegloucester said:
If we don't pay rent we pay off a loan, hardly neutralised.

That's why I said in the long term, when the mortgage is paid - I've explicitly said that.

So where would we be better off (8 Viewers)

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