Southgate (3 Viewers)

[TomRad85]

It was a tournament largely consisting of us getting away with poor to very poor performances and then losing to an actually strong side. So really, that we got rumbled in the final as opposed to a quarter final isn’t of much significance.

Boring, negative football which wasn’t necessary.

Tbh saying we won't get as far is just a really lazy prediction as we'd actually be lucky to keep getting the routes we were given under Southgate. Willing to bet any half decent manager manages to rustle up a better record vs top 10 opposition.

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[CCFCSteve]

The fact people think that no manager out there can do better than Gareth when they've just watched a bald Spanish bloke that nobody has heard of take a weaker team to the title cracks me up

About 4 of their player should make our team and they've just played amazing football and won the lot .

The ‘bald Spanish bloke’ might’ve been unknown to us but he had won euros with U19 and U21s, presumably with a few of the players from this tournament. That consistency and familiarity of approach and system would’ve helped them hugely. He’s obviously a top coach

I do agree with you though that Southgate should be replaceable….if we make the right choice

*also won the nations league

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

It was a tournament largely consisting of us getting away with poor to very poor performances and then losing to an actually strong side. So really, that we got rumbled in the final as opposed to a quarter final isn’t of much significance.

Boring, negative football which wasn’t necessary.

Barring Spain, in the KO rounds we were the better team in every game with more shots and more possession against each opponent. Switzerland aren’t mugs, they nearly beat Germany to top the group and beat Italy convincingly. Somehow, the narrative that beating Italy would somehow be harder - that’s just going off a big name.

In the group stage, we were dross and unconvincing - 100%. The KO rounds we progressed in each game.

Rewatch the final, had we not been so poor defensively for their goal so soon after HT, it would’ve been a lot closer. I’m pretty certain Spain had 4 of their 5 shots on target between both our goals when they really had us on the ropes.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Tbh saying we won't get as far is just a really lazy prediction as we'd actually be lucky to keep getting the routes we were given under Southgate. Willing to bet any half decent manager manages to rustle up a better record vs top 10 opposition.

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At some point, whether it’s early on or in the final, you’re going to have to beat strong teams to win the tournament. Southgate’s record against such teams shows he clearly doesn’t know how.

There are still clearly some who think it’s all about boring the opposition to death and passing sideways for 120 minutes before you can fist pump the crowd for a penalty shootout.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

At some point, whether it’s early on or in the final, you’re going to have to beat strong teams to win the tournament. Southgate’s record against such teams shows he clearly doesn’t know how.

There are still clearly some who think it’s all about boring the opposition to death and passing sideways for 120 minutes before you can fist pump the crowd for a penalty shootout.

Won 2 KO games against the top 10 teams versus 4 losses. Which is still an improvement compared to previous England managers.

Bearing in mind we’d won something like 6 KO games since 1966 before Southgate took over.

The narrative that if we’re a bit more attacking we’ll suddenly win everything is optimistic at best, delusional at worst. Southgate has laid great foundations for his successor in any case and hoping his legacy reflects that.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Barring Spain, in the KO rounds we were the better team in every game with more shots and more possession against each opponent. Switzerland aren’t mugs, they nearly beat Germany to top the group and beat Italy convincingly. Somehow, the narrative that beating Italy would somehow be harder - that’s just going off a big name.

In the group stage, we were dross and unconvincing - 100%. The KO rounds we progressed in each game.

Rewatch the final, had we not been so poor defensively for their goal so soon after HT, it would’ve been a lot closer. I’m pretty certain Spain had 4 of their 5 shots on target between both our goals when they really had us on the ropes.

You seriously think we were the better team against Slovakia? That was one of the worst Southgate displays of his entire reign. Our first shot on target was Bellingham’s goal in the 95th minute, with Ivan Toney insultingly chucked on a few seconds before. Likewise against the Swiss, Saka’s equaliser was the first shot on target there too. It was terrible and if memory serves Switzerland missed a glorious chance at the end of extra time.

I will give you credit, you’re a stubborn one on this topic.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Won 2 KO games against the top 10 teams versus 4 losses. Which is still an improvement compared to previous England managers.

Bearing in mind we’d won something like 6 KO games since 1966 before Southgate took over.

The narrative that if we’re a bit more attacking we’ll suddenly win everything is optimistic at best, delusional at worst. Southgate has laid great foundations for his successor in any case and hoping his legacy reflects that.

Nobody has said we’re guaranteed success by doing that. In knockout football it’s quite possible to make few mistakes and lose, or as Southgate found, to play terrible football and win anyway.

It’s childish, but I want to see the national team at least attempt to play attractive football when we have the players for it. We may well have lost to Spain regardless by playing at a higher tempo instead of playing triangles in our own box, who knows. But we’d have seen England playing at their actual best.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

You seriously think we were the better team against Slovakia? That was one of the worst Southgate displays of his entire reign. Our first shot on target was Bellingham’s goal in the 95th minute, with Ivan Toney insultingly chucked on a few seconds before. Likewise against the Swiss, Saka’s equaliser was the first shot on target there too. It was terrible and if memory serves Switzerland missed a glorious chance at the end of extra time.

I will give you credit, you’re a stubborn one on this topic.

Slovakia had an excellent counter attacking strategy that really hurt us in the first half. They did a great job with the low block and credit to them. It was almost a perfect game plan.

That said, in the second half we were on top, Foden was a toe away from scoring an early 2nd half equaliser and Rice hit the post. We did ride our luck with a moment of brilliance, that’s because we’re team with brilliant players. See the stats; we had more shots, more possession and more corners.

Had we played they way Slovakia did against us against someone, you’d have criticised it as boring and negative.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Slovakia had an excellent counter attacking strategy that really hurt us in the first half. They did a great job with the low block and credit to them. It was almost a perfect game plan.

That said, in the second half we were on top, Foden was a toe away from scoring an early 2nd half equaliser and Rice hit the post. We did ride our luck with a moment of brilliance, that’s because we’re team with brilliant players. See the stats; we had more shots, more possession and more corners.

Had we played they way Slovakia did against us against someone, you’d have criticised it as boring and negative.


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I ask you again-were we the better team in that game? Possession has long been a meaningless stat in deciding that. It was an appalling display.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Nobody has said we’re guaranteed success by doing that. In knockout football it’s quite possible to make few mistakes and lose, or as Southgate found, to play terrible football and win anyway.

It’s childish, but I want to see the national team at least attempt to play attractive football when we have the players for it. We may well have lost to Spain regardless by playing at a higher tempo instead of playing triangles in our own box, who knows. But we’d have seen England playing at their actual best.

In that, we have shared goals. Potter would be the most likely manager (or Carsley) and arguably the best tactician we have. The only thing is that he wouldn’t have changed much from Southgate.

I doubt Eddie Howe would leave the Newcastle project, even if England is his ultimate goal. He’s young enough to wait out another 10-15 years. Carsley, probably would’ve been the right man had Southgate stayed till 2026 and groomed him as a successor.

I ask you again-were we the better team in that game? Possession has long been a meaningless stat in deciding that. It was an appalling display.

Yes, being at the game, I was genuinely relaxed about getting an equaliser until about the 87-89th minute.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

In that, we have shared goals. Potter would be the most likely manager (or Carsley) and arguably the best tactician we have. The only thing is that he wouldn’t have changed much from Southgate.

I doubt Eddie Howe would leave the Newcastle project, even if England is his ultimate goal. He’s young enough to wait out another 10-15 years. Carsley, probably would’ve been the right man had Southgate stayed till 2026 and groomed him as a successor.



Yes, being at the game, I was genuinely relaxed about getting an equaliser until about the 87-89th minute.

Then that makes pretty much you and Southgate the only ones happy with the performance. As for the other contenders though I agree, it isn’t a huge number but we also can afford to take our time.

I don’t mind much the name or nationality, but I do mind it being someone who can manage to the strengths of the players we have. Being selfish I’d also like to see more positive, higher tempo football with players granted some more freedom. Kind of how Georgia, Germany, Turkey and even Romania were trying to play this tournament. A lot of modern coaches seem to have become convinced that the boring snooze fest approach is the way to go, I disagree.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

The ‘bald Spanish bloke’ might’ve been unknown to us but he had won euros with U19 and U21s, presumably with a few of the players from this tournament. That consistency and familiarity of approach and system would’ve helped them hugely. He’s obviously a top coach

I do agree with you though that Southgate should be replaceable….if we make the right choice

*also won the nations league

Yeah I've got no problem with us picking a relative unknown from the ranks if they're the best candidate and have shown their ability - it's very different managing an international side to a club side after all. France did similar to win a world cup, and improved immensely when they switched to Aime Jacquet (whose club management record was pretty... shit) from Houllier. Appointing his assistant kind of worked too.

 

[Liquid Gold]

At some point, whether it’s early on or in the final, you’re going to have to beat strong teams to win the tournament. Southgate’s record against such teams shows he clearly doesn’t know how.

There are still clearly some who think it’s all about boring the opposition to death and passing sideways for 120 minutes before you can fist pump the crowd for a penalty shootout.

Every England manager ever has a shite record against top teams.

It’s time for Southgate to go but the idea that things are just going to get better now because he was specifically bad just doesn’t stand up.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Then that makes pretty much you and Southgate the only ones happy with the performance. As for the other contenders though I agree, it isn’t a huge number but we also can afford to take our time.

I don’t mind much the name or nationality, but I do mind it being someone who can manage to the strengths of the players we have. Being selfish I’d also like to see more positive, higher tempo football with players granted some more freedom. Kind of how Georgia, Germany, Turkey and even Romania were trying to play this tournament. A lot of modern coaches seem to have become convinced that the boring snooze fest approach is the way to go, I disagree.

I never said the performance was satisfactory. Without being cocky, it shouldn’t have got to that stage.

Why use Georgia, Turkey and Romania benchmarks? All teams that had memorable moments but got battered by clinical teams. Turkey were lucky to beat Austria.

Aside from Hungary and Scotland, Germany weren’t that impressive. Like us v Slovakia, lucky to even win their group and against Denmark relied on a 2 VAR decisions going their way to take the lead. They beat Denmark and Hungary before losing to Spain - that isn’t a successful tournament.

I’d understand if you wanted to emulate Spain because they had a nice mixture of tactical ideas. They were just as good (if not better) playing direct football on the counter as they were in possession.

Ultimately, you judge tournaments from where you end rather than your style play. We were the second best team in the tournament and lost the game v Spain in a few key moments. It’s academic, but I’d have no fear playing Italy, France, Germany or Portugal and think we’d beaten any of them. It’s academic because the games didn’t happen.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Got to thank Southgate for getting us to two finals and a semi but it really does feel he's taken us as far as he can with the luck of some decent draws.

Two finals we've thrown away because we played like we were scared and playing a superior team. We let them win with negative tactics.

I hope whoever is next is a bit more willing to give our attacking players a bit more freedom.

I also suspect that Southgate will not be a success in whatever manager job he ends up with. You can't play like that for a long season and luck results all the way through.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Every England manager ever has a shite record against top teams.

It’s time for Southgate to go but the idea that things are just going to get better now because he was specifically bad just doesn’t stand up.

I’ve avoided claiming that we will suddenly start winning things in his absence. All that was very clear was that he had to go.

 

[Seaside-Skyblue]

Consideration needs to be taken to the fact international management appears to be totally different to club level. International managers spend far less time with the players, have very little time to implement a style of football and have the challenge of bringing a group of players together who don't regularly play together week in week out (and who play different styles and levels of football for their clubs) to suddenly play as a cohesive unit every few months of the calendar year. It could be argued that Southgate did this integration bit off the pitch incredibly well regardless of any other shortfalls on the pitch.

Just my opinion, I obviously have no experience of either but I just think expectations need to be set, i.e. I don't think it's realistic that if we got Pepe that we will suddenly be playing like Man City or prime Barcelona likewise with Klopp we may not achieve a similar style to what he implemented at Liverpool. They would need to adapt as they have to essentially implement a style of football (perhaps a less complex style) with much less time application time available and deal with different variables to club managers.

Out of interest how many successful international managers have also made it at club level?

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

Consideration needs to be taken to the fact international management appears to be totally different to club level. International managers spend far less time with the players, have very little time to implement a style of football and have the challenge of bringing a group of players together who don't regularly play together week in week out (and who play different styles and levels of football for their clubs) to suddenly play as a cohesive unit every few months of the calendar year. It could be argued that Southgate did this integration bit off the pitch incredibly well regardless of any other shortfalls on the pitch.

Just my opinion, I obviously have no experience of either but I just think expectations need to be set, i.e. I don't think it's realistic that if we got Pepe that we will suddenly be playing like Man City or prime Barcelona likewise with Klopp we may not achieve a similar style to what he implemented at Liverpool. They would need to adapt as they have to essentially implement a style of football (perhaps a less complex style) with much less time application time available and deal with different variables to club managers.

Out of interest how many successful international managers have also made it at club level?

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Roberto Mancini is the most recent one who comes to mind.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

Consideration needs to be taken to the fact international management appears to be totally different to club level. International managers spend far less time with the players, have very little time to implement a style of football and have the challenge of bringing a group of players together who don't regularly play together week in week out (and who play different styles and levels of football for their clubs) to suddenly play as a cohesive unit every few months of the calendar year. It could be argued that Southgate did this integration bit off the pitch incredibly well regardless of any other shortfalls on the pitch.

Just my opinion, I obviously have no experience of either but I just think expectations need to be set, i.e. I don't think it's realistic that if we got Pepe that we will suddenly be playing like Man City or prime Barcelona likewise with Klopp we may not achieve a similar style to what he implemented at Liverpool. They would need to adapt as they have to essentially implement a style of football (perhaps a less complex style) with much less time application time available and deal with different variables to club managers.

Out of interest how many successful international managers have also made it at club level?

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Being able to manage the media and bring the squad together are essential skills. Once the media turns against an England manager their position becomes virtually untenable. That's why I think Potter wouldn't be successful at all and I am not sure about Howe.

 

[Sky_Blue_Daz]

I don't think Howe is an inspired choice , and I don't get the rhetoric of it having to be an English man to do the job. My choice would be Klopp

 

[CCFCSteve]

I don't think Howe is an inspired choice , and I don't get the rhetoric of it having to be an English man to do the job. My choice would be Klopp

Howes far more inspired that Southgate was when he took over and he was the most successful England manager since Ramsey. Brought Bournemouth up through the leagues, saved Newcastle from relegation and took them into the champions league the following year. Been coaching since he was 30 and done a very good job so far

Who knows if he would do well at international level but there’s no guarantees that great club managers would work either

 

[David O'Day]

Consideration needs to be taken to the fact international management appears to be totally different to club level. International managers spend far less time with the players, have very little time to implement a style of football and have the challenge of bringing a group of players together who don't regularly play together week in week out (and who play different styles and levels of football for their clubs) to suddenly play as a cohesive unit every few months of the calendar year. It could be argued that Southgate did this integration bit off the pitch incredibly well regardless of any other shortfalls on the pitch.

Just my opinion, I obviously have no experience of either but I just think expectations need to be set, i.e. I don't think it's realistic that if we got Pepe that we will suddenly be playing like Man City or prime Barcelona likewise with Klopp we may not achieve a similar style to what he implemented at Liverpool. They would need to adapt as they have to essentially implement a style of football (perhaps a less complex style) with much less time application time available and deal with different variables to club managers.

Out of interest how many successful international managers have also made it at club level?

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Klopp's style is easier to implement using limited international training time. Rangnick has managed to do similar with Austria.

 

[Grendel]

Being able to manage the media and bring the squad together are essential skills. Once the media turns against an England manager their position becomes virtually untenable. That's why I think Potter wouldn't be successful at all and I am not sure about Howe.

I think people forget what a shambles England were off the pitch before let alone on it.

Players with inflated egos, cliques and a hostile press. Potter started to crumble at Chelsea after a few weeks. Howe looks very agitated and tetchy when he’s questioned on Newcastle and its owners.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Klopp's style is easier to implement using limited international training time. Rangnick has managed to do similar with Austria.

Rangnick got knocked out by a Turkey team Austria really should’ve beaten. On paper and on the pitch when they played.

They looked good in qualifying and in the group stages but that literally means nothing. What actually matters is how teams perform in the KO rounds.

Klopp doesn’t want a top job for a year. However, the FA are supposedly considering hiring an interim manager (likely Carsley) to sound out Pep at the end of this season (2024-25).

Of the two managers, Pep would be the obvious choice for a few reasons; he’s more successful, his style is more suited to our personnel and coached more of our players. Klopp, imo, isn’t a good fit for us tactically as the profile of the Liverpool team is a lot different to the England team.

I agree with Jamie Carragher that both managers may not have as much joy translating their philosophies to the international game.

 

[Terry Gibson's perm]

Southgate knew the press were after him as soon as they stopped with all that Gareth shit and started calling him Southgate.

The players like him because he was soft and allowed rubbish like senior players committees.

He should never have taken the team in this tournament he is a loser and is weak mentally as well as being very poor tactically.

Don’t expect to see clubs sacking their managers and thinking best get in Southgate.

The only thing that is certain is the fa will get who suits them not the best man for the job.

 

[Sick Boy]

It’s time for Dongo’s redemption; get Andy Thorn on the phone.

 

[Nick]

Honestly I’d give it to Carsley. The FA created the pathway for a reason and he won it with the youth so why not.

If it falls apart in two years then you give it to the biggest club name you can get no matter their nationality.

Carsley the ROI international with zero club management experience (apart from a few caretaker roles).

Just be another FA type yes man.

 

[Nick]

Southgate knew the press were after him as soon as they stopped with all that Gareth shit and started calling him Southgate.

The players like him because he was soft and allowed rubbish like senior players committees.

He should never have taken the team in this tournament he is a loser and is weak mentally as well as being very poor tactically.

Don’t expect to see clubs sacking their managers and thinking best get in Southgate.

The only thing that is certain is the fa will get who suits them not the best man for the job.

Exactly, which clubs are going to be fighting over getting Southgate in?

 

[SBAndy]

Exactly, which clubs are going to be fighting over getting Southgate in?

This is not a prerequisite of a successful international manager.

 

[Nick]

This is not a prerequisite of a successful international manager.

He isn't successful though?

 

[skybluecam]

Tuchel or Pochettino please

 

[Liquid Gold]

Carsley the ROI international with zero club management experience (apart from a few caretaker roles).

Just be another FA type yes man.

What the fuck is a FA yes man?

 

[Liquid Gold]

I’ve avoided claiming that we will suddenly start winning things in his absence. All that was very clear was that he had to go.

That’s fair enough and I agree it was time.

 

[Liquid Gold]

Klopp's style is easier to implement using limited international training time. Rangnick has managed to do similar with Austria.

Klopps style will be incredibly difficult to pull off in a 35 degree Texan summer.

It might work well for a few games but we have to remember the players are always coming off a long season and are generally knackered at the start of a tournament.

 

[SeaSeeEffCee]

What the fuck is a FA yes man?

No-one who ever says this will be able to answer that. It’s just buzz words.