That may all be true, but it is irrelevant to that fact that it was the previous coaching team who had developed and improved the players you referred to. So far, there is no evidence either way that the current plethora of coaches will prove as capable.Robins is on record saying the coaches are settling into their roles - it’s too early to evaluate them at this point. The early start hasn’t been great, but plenty of time to improve things.
Let’s think back to 2017 when AV was starting, there was doubt expressed at the time of MR to coach without his previous long time assistant, Steven Taylor.
It could all end in tears but knee jerking based on little data is a sure way to make mistakes.
You’re right, but you’re not taking into account how much of a benefit that “spotlight” is.I don’t just “advocate arbitrary practices” for the sake of it, I have my own reasoning behind them, maybe it’s flawed but it’s just an opinion. I’ve talked in depth before about the idea behind why I think European signings are generally better than L1 signings, and yes I’ve got no evidence to back this up, but it’s my personal opinion that championship clubs overpay for L1 players because fans/scouts/managers etc have a more in-depth view of L1 than other leagues around the world, we follow English football more than Swedish or Belgian football for instance. So any player that does well in L1 is in more of a spotlight than the equivalent league abroad, but it doesn’t mean that they’re better than their European equivalent.
For instance, how much would have Kitching been worth if he had played for an Italian Serie B team? I highly doubt it would have been £4 mil. There’s just a bigger pool of talent abroad as well, so many leagues to look at. I just think it’s much better (and has been much better) for us to look at Europe than to risk £4-5 mil on a player from L1.
(Sorry it’s a bit of a Parklife, it’s hard to describe the gut feeling I have about L1)
I did say it’s hard to put into words my feelings about buying L1 playersBasically I just feel that the price tag of L1 players is higher than what they’re actually worth, due to them being in the spotlight of British fans/scouts/managers, when compared to the average European equivalent which requires more in-depth scouting. Also maybe the jump in quality from L1 to the championship is higher than from say the Belgian Pro League or the Swedish Allsvenskan for example, maybe?
They had us 7th before the start of the season. It’s just a reflection of our poor start.According to Opta, we've got more chance of finishing 21st (4.7% chance) than in the top 6 (4.6%). It seems that they think we have very middling players. I don't necessarily agree, but we're clearly unbalanced and extremely light in key positions.
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If Kitching was a Serie B player he would still be English and not need a visa.You’re right, but you’re not taking into account how much of a benefit that “spotlight” is.
It’s much easier and cheaper to scout, negotiate with and sign domestic players.
Also, if Kitching was a serie B player he would likely not qualify automatically for a visa and we have a limited number of exceptions we can use.
Odd that!They had us 7th before the start of the season. It’s just a reflection of our poor start.
Ok lol, but he wouldn’t be English. There’s 1 English player in the whole of serie bIf Kitching was a Serie B player he would still be English and not need a visa.
If we had been after Cucinare we would have ended a visa.
but what is the point you’re actually making? Or is this just a general observation?
We haven't tried to unearth anything in reality, EMC was the only one of the players you are talking about without Championship experience. Signings like Dovin and Torp i'd refer to more as attempts to 'unearth' talent.I can’t remember where this discussion started but I quoted someone and then someone quoted me and then it ended up hereI’m not really bothered tbh but I just really hope we don’t try and unearth hidden gems in L1 any time soon, just feels like a big risk and a waste of money to me.
Signing players from a league below is the norm for 95% of football teams. Sakamoto was signed from a team relegated from the Belgian first division, likewise with Hamer in the Netherlands.I can’t remember where this discussion started but I quoted someone and then someone quoted me and then it ended up hereI’m not really bothered tbh but I just really hope we don’t try and unearth hidden gems in L1 any time soon, just feels like a big risk and a waste of money to me.
We haven't tried to unearth anything in reality, EMC was the only one of the players you are talking about without Championship experience. Signings like Dovin and Torp i'd refer to more as attempts to 'unearth' talent.
They were also involved in Barnsley’s playoff season but, what does the recruitment team know, eh?Im still not convinced one relegation season finishing rock bottom and conceding 73 goals is particularly great championship experience.
Does Hamers Premier League experience count then?Im still not convinced one relegation season finishing rock bottom and conceding 73 goals is particularly great championship experience.
Does Hamers Premier League experience count then?
Really? Barnsley got to the playoff finals with Thomas and Kitching as their captain - I was at their game and they were unlucky to have lost. I’m pretty sure Luton signed one of their CBs too that offseason - so it was a top end L1 unit. They looked a fantastic duo when we switched to 4-2-3-1 and hindsight being what it is, I think our squad and particularly the defenders miss having McFadz around as a senior figure.Probably not. Especially as no one picked him up post relegation. Rudoni I think is a good signing, probably slightly overpaid but young, two full seasons at this level and signed as soon as his club was relegated.
EMC and Kitching worry me because their career trajectory doesn’t feel as rapid and sustained.
I can’t remember where this discussion started but I quoted someone and then someone quoted me and then it ended up hereI’m not really bothered tbh but I just really hope we don’t try and unearth hidden gems in L1 any time soon, just feels like a big risk and a waste of money to me.
Probably not. Especially as no one picked him up post relegation. Rudoni I think is a good signing, probably slightly overpaid but young, two full seasons at this level and signed as soon as his club was relegated.
EMC and Kitching worry me because their career trajectory doesn’t feel as rapid and sustained.
Imagine calling a player who has 32 goal contributions in the league below a ‘hidden gem’. Even if EMC achieves half his output from last season, the numbers are significant and improves our team.what are you talking about? ‘Hidden’? They were well reputed platers in L1. The hidden ones are the non-English, the exact opposite of what you’re saying here. Nothing you are coming out with makes sense
Gems
Committee Culture,Media & Sport.
Hi Does anybody know if it is possible to petition the Committee to investigate Sisu's running of our Club in a similar way as an online petition ( subject to a certain amount of petitioners)can force a debate in Parliament on a particular subject? Regards.www.skybluestalk.co.uk
Jesus the guy didn’t want to stay. Just like Vik, Just like COH….
I was replying to a post that the money spent on EMC would've been better spent on giving Hamer the contract he wanted, we need midfielders, we have Bassette who can play along the front line.
Imagine the travesty had we let Hamer go for free? I’m sorry, but £15m for that deal was 100% worth it.In hindsight..the worst sale was Hamers.
Ridiculous talent..he can single handedly drive any team in this division.
He can lift any team. His stats as a championship midfielder are plain stupid.
He will get more goals and assists this season. Than Rudoni/Sheaf/Eccles/Torp combined.
Instead of wasting£4m on EMC we should have used that money to keep him.
irreplaceable. and wasted his money.
We haven't tried to unearth anything in reality, EMC was the only one of the players you are talking about without Championship experience. Signings like Dovin and Torp i'd refer to more as attempts to 'unearth' talent.
Signing players from a league below is the norm for 95% of football teams. Sakamoto was signed from a team relegated from the Belgian first division, likewise with Hamer in the Netherlands.
Signing players from the league above isn’t easy either, Birmingham spent up to £15m on a striker who scored less goals individually than Wright, Simms and BTA… Or looking at someone like Joe Worrall, the price point wasn’t the problem, his wages were. Generally, we’re only going to sign players that Prem teams don’t really want or are distressed and have to sell for FFP (Everton with Simms).
You do understand the Visa problems trying to sign players from lesser/lower leagues?I agree, we’re not looking at prem quality because obviously it’ll come at a cost and I assume that’s not what Doug’s after. I think looking at quality that’s somewhat comparable to the championship, like the Belgian Pro League, Bundesliga relegation teams/Bundesliga 2, Turkey Super League, even lower table teams in Brazil Serie A/B or Argentina Primera etc, are probably where we should be looking rather than blowing £4-5 mil on League 1 players.
You do understand the Visa problems trying to sign players from lesser/lower leagues?
these are the ramblings of a man with way too much time on his hands. I’ve re-read it twice and I still don’t really know what the point is.
Championship teams aren’t signing Serie A, Bundesliga or Argentina Primera first team players. So you’re taking chances on fringe players at best.I agree, we’re not looking at prem quality because obviously it’ll come at a cost and I assume that’s not what Doug’s after. I think looking at quality that’s somewhat comparable to the championship, like the Belgian Pro League, Bundesliga relegation teams/Bundesliga 2, Turkey Super League, even lower table teams in Brazil Serie A/B or Argentina Primera etc, are probably where we should be looking rather than blowing £4-5 mil on League 1 players.
Over the last two seasons he’s been statistically significantly worse than our other options.
Championship teams aren’t signing Serie A, Bundesliga or Argentina Primera first team players. So you’re taking chances on fringe players at best.
The quoted figures you give are for two players, Kitching and EMC. Firstly, in relation to Kitching, it’s unlikely the deal is structured without performance/landmark payments. Secondly, EMC’s 32 goal contributions in the league below is worth £4m, for sure.
The going rate for top end L1 talent is £3-5m now. Just as we would expect £10-25m for our top talent which would be unprecedented in our first Championship spell from 2001-2012.
what are you talking about? ‘Hidden’? They were well reputed platers in L1. The hidden ones are the non-English, the exact opposite of what you’re saying here. Nothing you are coming out with makes sense
We're 9 games inI did say lower table teams in Brazilian Serie A-B and the same for Bundesliga 1-2, I’m obviously not talking about signing players from Dortmund or Leipzig, more the Köln, Augsburg, Hertha, Karlsruher type teams, which is completely feasible for a championship team.
As for EMC, I agree that on paper it’s worth the £4 mil but my point is that in reality it doesn’t seem to translate to the championship. We’ve obviously not gone and bought shit looking players from L1, but none of them have so far made the step up to championship level (EMC has more to offer, granted). I just don’t believe that what you get for your cash in L1 is worth it, all these players look great but when they step up they either take an age to do so or can’t do it. Compared to Van Ewijk or Sakamoto, who we bought for a similar price, the difference in quality is night and day.
We're 9 games in
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"I've talked in depth before about the idea...and yes I've got no evidence to back this up" Priceless.I don’t just “advocate arbitrary practices” for the sake of it, I have my own reasoning behind them, maybe it’s flawed but it’s just an opinion. I’ve talked in depth before about the idea behind why I think European signings are generally better than L1 signings, and yes I’ve got no evidence to back this up, but it’s my personal opinion that championship clubs overpay for L1 players because fans/scouts/managers etc have a more in-depth view of L1 than other leagues around the world, we follow English football more than Swedish or Belgian football for instance. So any player that does well in L1 is in more of a spotlight than the equivalent league abroad, but it doesn’t mean that they’re better than their European equivalent.
For instance, how much would have Kitching been worth if he had played for an Italian Serie B team? I highly doubt it would have been £4 mil. There’s just a bigger pool of talent abroad as well, so many leagues to look at. I just think it’s much better (and has been much better) for us to look at Europe than to risk £4-5 mil on a player from L1.
(Sorry it’s a bit of a Parklife, it’s hard to describe the gut feeling I have about L1)
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