Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Don't quite understand the title of this thread- is our manager now made of a fluorinated polymer? :thinking about:
Teflon AT - a great position for him (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter shy_tall_knight
- Start date
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
I know the stats highlight two particular periods as being the results that really cost us..... but i think the two periods can be interpreted differently
where we took 3 points from 11 games in the second period is more damning to the playing set up than the last 6 games
that second period we had a bigger squad available, but AT lost his way in terms of tactics especially away from home, showed his inexperience. It was also the period in my mind that it became apparent that the senior players were not that well focused on the task in hand. That is the period that set up the relegation in my mind. It became very apparent that promises made were not going to be matched by actions on new players and that had to affect the players. It was when it became known that Freddy was messing us about and that funding had dried up. To a degree the young lads lost their initial burst and needed to be rested and of course couldnt be. But still a period when we had time still to change things and the pressure to survive wasnt so great
The last 6 games the squad was smaller, injuries were telling and the team cracked under the pressure. It became obvious that there was no leader, that it was a step too far for many of the young lads and that we lacked any real fire power. We persisted with trying not to lose when we needed to go out to win. Senior players still didnt step up to the plate by and large and form dipped. When it came to it the playing side of the club bottled it, how many times did we see no real passion or perceive a lack of desire to get the job done ?
BUT the terminal damage was done in that second period and we never had the depth in squad or the leadership on or off the pitch to recover the situation..... rest of the time we were just on life support until relegation
8 points adrift of staying up is not close .... not by a long way
where we took 3 points from 11 games in the second period is more damning to the playing set up than the last 6 games
that second period we had a bigger squad available, but AT lost his way in terms of tactics especially away from home, showed his inexperience. It was also the period in my mind that it became apparent that the senior players were not that well focused on the task in hand. That is the period that set up the relegation in my mind. It became very apparent that promises made were not going to be matched by actions on new players and that had to affect the players. It was when it became known that Freddy was messing us about and that funding had dried up. To a degree the young lads lost their initial burst and needed to be rested and of course couldnt be. But still a period when we had time still to change things and the pressure to survive wasnt so great
The last 6 games the squad was smaller, injuries were telling and the team cracked under the pressure. It became obvious that there was no leader, that it was a step too far for many of the young lads and that we lacked any real fire power. We persisted with trying not to lose when we needed to go out to win. Senior players still didnt step up to the plate by and large and form dipped. When it came to it the playing side of the club bottled it, how many times did we see no real passion or perceive a lack of desire to get the job done ?
BUT the terminal damage was done in that second period and we never had the depth in squad or the leadership on or off the pitch to recover the situation..... rest of the time we were just on life support until relegation
8 points adrift of staying up is not close .... not by a long way
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Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Worth throwing into the equation OSB that we surrendered nearly (off the top of my head) 30 points from winning positions. By contrast, we recovered very few indeed from losing positions-even under Coleman we had similarly shocking statistics in that department.
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
The point is the SISU board according to this did not have a clue when it come to appointing the new manager.
Hence the support Thorn = support SISU, because they appointed him, falls on its arse.
Also to have this logic whoever they appoint and any player they sign, If you like them, you like SISU, as they signed or appointed them.
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
You even said yourself that Thorn would have taken West Ham up as runaway champions, surely you must admit that SISU have unearthed a gem of a manager and should be applauded for it?
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
When you consider the points we thrown away at Palace, Blackpool H and A, Burnley H and others. One more player of experience may well have been the difference between relegation and staying up.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Or a manager with experience?
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
As a team the bare facts are that there wasn't much right about us last season BSB
scored the fewest goals in the league
third worst goal difference
one away win
second worst total number of wins
fifth worst number of losses
yes we passed the ball about but it didnt threaten the opposition
passing was safe but pretty erratic under pressure in opponents half
we lacked pace and invention
our highest goal scorer was 9 jointly held with a player that left in January
there was no natural leader on the pitch - best we had was Keogh but that was more by example than leadership
The various touchline shenanigans including Orange Ken but also the conflicting signals given to players by AT & SH
The Eastwood saga
the lack of form of the more senior players
the lack of a bit of blood and thunder that said there was desire heart and passion
the lack of atmosphere at home
the lack of quick movement or attack
too many injuries
too many youngsters
inexperienced manager
too many players out of form or needing a rest (youngsters)
lack of depth
lack of quality
i could go on .......
I am struggling to find the positives in the team to be honest
hard as it may seem to some fans to see...... part of some that is down to AT and his management
scored the fewest goals in the league
third worst goal difference
one away win
second worst total number of wins
fifth worst number of losses
yes we passed the ball about but it didnt threaten the opposition
passing was safe but pretty erratic under pressure in opponents half
we lacked pace and invention
our highest goal scorer was 9 jointly held with a player that left in January
there was no natural leader on the pitch - best we had was Keogh but that was more by example than leadership
The various touchline shenanigans including Orange Ken but also the conflicting signals given to players by AT & SH
The Eastwood saga
the lack of form of the more senior players
the lack of a bit of blood and thunder that said there was desire heart and passion
the lack of atmosphere at home
the lack of quick movement or attack
too many injuries
too many youngsters
inexperienced manager
too many players out of form or needing a rest (youngsters)
lack of depth
lack of quality
i could go on .......
I am struggling to find the positives in the team to be honest
hard as it may seem to some fans to see...... part of some that is down to AT and his management
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SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
Could have also been the difference I agree
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
People focus on SISU not investing in the team, yet completely let them off for not investing in the management of the team, it doesn't make sense, they have been given an easy ride. There should have been pressure on them to invest in a manager rather than putting a scout in charge. For some strange reason, any criticism of Thorn's ability is seen as a personal attack on him, it is quite strange.
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
The problem is this is at the start of the season where apparently we had a strong squad?
We have Thomas and Bigi in the starting line up. Who will be good players but at this time and still are learning their trade.
We had ROD up front.
To change things we could bring on Ruffels or Jeffers?
I think if memory serves me right they were question marks over the fitness of Mcpake and Cameron.
However I really think it would be midfield and attack where as the game goes on you would need to rest the kids
When you see this in August, surely you realise the writing was on the wall?
Teams:
Crystal Palace: 1. Julian Speroni, 3. David Wright, 4. Jonathan Parr, 5. Patrick McCarthy (c), 8. Kagisho Dikgacoi, 10. Owen Garvan, 11. Sean Scannell, 19. Jermaine Easter, 36. Ryan McGivern, 27. Aleksandar Tunchev, 38. Peter Ramage
Subs: 34. Lewis Price, 15. Mile Jedinak, 16. Wilfried Zaha, 20. Jonathan Williams, 31. Calvin Andrew
Booked: Jedinak, Scannell
Coventry: 1. Joe Murphy, 31. Cyrus Christie, 3. Chris Hussey, 15. Martin Cranie, 2. Richard Keogh, 32. Connor Thomas, 4. Sammy Clingan (c), 34. Gael Bigirmana, 11. Gary McSheffrey, 19. Roy O'Donovan, 9. Lucas Jutkiewicz
Subs: 13. Chris Dunn, 6. James McPake, 27. Shaun Jeffers, 30. Nathan Cameron, 35. Josh Ruffles
We have Thomas and Bigi in the starting line up. Who will be good players but at this time and still are learning their trade.
We had ROD up front.
To change things we could bring on Ruffels or Jeffers?
I think if memory serves me right they were question marks over the fitness of Mcpake and Cameron.
However I really think it would be midfield and attack where as the game goes on you would need to rest the kids
When you see this in August, surely you realise the writing was on the wall?
Teams:
Crystal Palace: 1. Julian Speroni, 3. David Wright, 4. Jonathan Parr, 5. Patrick McCarthy (c), 8. Kagisho Dikgacoi, 10. Owen Garvan, 11. Sean Scannell, 19. Jermaine Easter, 36. Ryan McGivern, 27. Aleksandar Tunchev, 38. Peter Ramage
Subs: 34. Lewis Price, 15. Mile Jedinak, 16. Wilfried Zaha, 20. Jonathan Williams, 31. Calvin Andrew
Booked: Jedinak, Scannell
Coventry: 1. Joe Murphy, 31. Cyrus Christie, 3. Chris Hussey, 15. Martin Cranie, 2. Richard Keogh, 32. Connor Thomas, 4. Sammy Clingan (c), 34. Gael Bigirmana, 11. Gary McSheffrey, 19. Roy O'Donovan, 9. Lucas Jutkiewicz
Subs: 13. Chris Dunn, 6. James McPake, 27. Shaun Jeffers, 30. Nathan Cameron, 35. Josh Ruffles
Sky Blue Kid
Well-Known Member
Is it only me, or do others realize that AT brought every single one of these players to Coventry....Players who were not good enough to keep us in the Championship. Doesn't this say anything to all of you?........It screams to me AT isn't a manager, and never will be as long as he's got a hole in his bum.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Not calling 30 dropped points a success OSB-it shows the team actually wasn't totally useless and could have achieved safety.
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
I guess that is because people would rather have a strong playing squad than management staff.
I just think Thorn has been thrown in the deep end for his first management job, he has had little help from the board and has been given a poor squad and hardly and coaching staff, do we even have a scout any more? No specialised fitness coach etc. Most managers would find the conditions difficult to be successful in never mind an inexperienced manager who is learning and needs help early on. He has done as good a job as could be expected from a rookie with no help, to keep last seasons squad up would have been overachieving for a rookie manager with the squad and coaching staff he was given. That isn't to say nobody else could have done a better job, a better more experienced manager could have kept us up and Thorn has made mistakes but that had to be expected. Discussing the possibility that a better manager could have kept us up is pointless though as any manager who could have kept us up would not be interested in the job and we could not afford.
I do think there is a point though when you have to say what else have we got to lose and employ another rookie like Carsley to see if he can get more out of the current players.
mattylad
Member
The same scout that unearthered Gunnar, Westwood, Dann and FoxIs it only me, or do others realize that AT brought every single one of these players to Coventry....Players who were not good enough to keep us in the Championship. Doesn't this say anything to all of you?........It screams to me AT isn't a manager, and never will be as long as he's got a hole in his bum.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Dann & Fox joined when Dowie was manager....Thorn came to the club after Coleman was in charge.
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
He accredited with scouting Gunnar, Westwood, Keogh, Cranie, Juke, Deegan, Baker, Hussey, Dunn, Cody, Murphy
The loan signings of Nimley and Norwood.
I dont think he has done too badly really
The loan signings of Nimley and Norwood.
I dont think he has done too badly really
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SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
I don't think that's the point though is it, granted he has ballsed some scouting of players like Bell but all of the good finds he has had has been sold on. Players like Hussey, Deegan, Baker would be good squad players to compliment a core squad of championship players like Juke, King, Turner, Gunnarson, Fox etc. but are not good enough to be key players to a side that want to play in the championship. They weren't bought to be key players, they were bought to support the current squad of championship players we had at the time.Is it only me, or do others realize that AT brought every single one of these players to Coventry....Players who were not good enough to keep us in the Championship. Doesn't this say anything to all of you?........It screams to me AT isn't a manager, and never will be as long as he's got a hole in his bum.
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
I have always wondered and never been able to find any source as to when Andy Thorn actually joined the club as scout
The only thing I can find is this link which says he joined in 06/07 but I am not sure of its accuracy.
http://www.footballfancast.com/2012...ill-the-man-to-drag-coventry-straight-back-up
If you have a source which says he joined the club after Coleman joined could I see it please just for clarification.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/co...ty-sign-aron-einar-gunnarsson-92746-21086740/
Is seems Thorn didn't scout AG.....
The largely unknown defensive midfielder was recommended to Coleman by fellow countryman and Bolton striker Heidar Helguson.
"He contacted Heidar and others who told him about me and what kind of player I am and I think it must have been mainly positive information."
Is seems Thorn didn't scout AG.....
The largely unknown defensive midfielder was recommended to Coleman by fellow countryman and Bolton striker Heidar Helguson.
"He contacted Heidar and others who told him about me and what kind of player I am and I think it must have been mainly positive information."
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
I can't find a link to it but I am certain he was brought in by Ranson from Everton.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
http://www.whufc.com/articles/20111118/downes-backs-old-pal-thorn_2236884_2520043
According to this he was brought in in 2008, after spells at Everton & Fulham.
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
strange the telegraph thinks AT scouted Gunnar
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/co...in-his-coventry-city-top-five-92746-30356282/
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/co...in-his-coventry-city-top-five-92746-30356282/
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Well they have contradicted themselves then.
Thorn is now surrounded by such mythical legends & tales, who knows what is real any more.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
as Dann & Fox both joined January 2008 was AT even here for them either ?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
It would seem that most threads find their way onto 2 topics now - SISU or Thorn.
The majority of posts that find their way onto the topic of Thorn are met with a few standard defences;
"This is boring, yawn" - odd as traditionally the manager is the key figure one would apportion criticism to following the catastrophes of last season. We are however, in a unique position here as the club is owned by a universally disliked Hedge Fund who will always take centre stage when critics are around. Yet those same people "bored" with the management issue are anything but bored about SISU or any charming analogy they can place on the name. This is curious. Mainly because SISU placed Thorn in the job (they have seemingly got everything football wise wrong and yet....) and because fan action is more likely to focus on and be successful if it is aimed against a manager. People can vent their spleen all they like about SISU but this has and will continue to make no difference. I find the SISU threads less relevant than those aimed at the manager and his failings. The other curiosity of course is that most new regimes change managers so the fervent defenders of him statistically are more likely to satisfy the wish if they retain the present owners.
"Sir Alex blah blah blah would not make a difference" - A lazy and weak argument. It actually suggests experience in management, coaching over many years make no difference. One has to assume Thorn has had little desire until now to be a manager. The ultimate conclusion is that the players are so bad that we don't need a manager.
"We could be a lot worse without AT" - we have just been relegated to the third tier for the first time in over 50 years - so that is mind blowing as a comment
"He has an eye for a player" - this is funny. Two of them were signed before he signed for the club and the Iceland is debatable. And of course the eye was firmly closed when the likes of Bell were signed. It is also irrelevant as this is the skill expected of a scout and not a manager.
The true hard facts of course tell another story
Worst win ratio since the Great War (just read that and really digest it oh and that includes the "honeymoon" period which was the same "honeymoon" as Boothroyd)
Two away wins as a manager
Relegation
These are facts. The subjective criticism is;
Poor tactics
Poor motivation
Innefective communication
The defence for him on here reaches levels beyond my comprehension. We even have a thread trying to "big up" Yeovil so the defence is there when the inevitable defeat occurs. This is ridiculous. Any negative comments, contracts, player choices are the boards decision and he is forced to comply with an obligatory comment. With no accountability and no expectation there will be no improvement and the slide will continue.
The constant obsession with this ridiculously limited individual is like King Canute believing he can stop the tide. It's absurd. Thorn's own behaviour is not above scrutiny either. The so called digs at our owners are well timed and serve as a distraction (strange how those comments are not staged or forced). They are clearly staged. He is a corporate man and a SISU man first and a manager second. The notion he cares is laughable - except for his SISU paycheck.
While Thorn remains, SISU remain and the club will get dragged further into the depths. But never mind as like as "Thorny" is looked after that is all we care about - isn't it?
The majority of posts that find their way onto the topic of Thorn are met with a few standard defences;
"This is boring, yawn" - odd as traditionally the manager is the key figure one would apportion criticism to following the catastrophes of last season. We are however, in a unique position here as the club is owned by a universally disliked Hedge Fund who will always take centre stage when critics are around. Yet those same people "bored" with the management issue are anything but bored about SISU or any charming analogy they can place on the name. This is curious. Mainly because SISU placed Thorn in the job (they have seemingly got everything football wise wrong and yet....) and because fan action is more likely to focus on and be successful if it is aimed against a manager. People can vent their spleen all they like about SISU but this has and will continue to make no difference. I find the SISU threads less relevant than those aimed at the manager and his failings. The other curiosity of course is that most new regimes change managers so the fervent defenders of him statistically are more likely to satisfy the wish if they retain the present owners.
"Sir Alex blah blah blah would not make a difference" - A lazy and weak argument. It actually suggests experience in management, coaching over many years make no difference. One has to assume Thorn has had little desire until now to be a manager. The ultimate conclusion is that the players are so bad that we don't need a manager.
"We could be a lot worse without AT" - we have just been relegated to the third tier for the first time in over 50 years - so that is mind blowing as a comment
"He has an eye for a player" - this is funny. Two of them were signed before he signed for the club and the Iceland is debatable. And of course the eye was firmly closed when the likes of Bell were signed. It is also irrelevant as this is the skill expected of a scout and not a manager.
The true hard facts of course tell another story
Worst win ratio since the Great War (just read that and really digest it oh and that includes the "honeymoon" period which was the same "honeymoon" as Boothroyd)
Two away wins as a manager
Relegation
These are facts. The subjective criticism is;
Poor tactics
Poor motivation
Innefective communication
The defence for him on here reaches levels beyond my comprehension. We even have a thread trying to "big up" Yeovil so the defence is there when the inevitable defeat occurs. This is ridiculous. Any negative comments, contracts, player choices are the boards decision and he is forced to comply with an obligatory comment. With no accountability and no expectation there will be no improvement and the slide will continue.
The constant obsession with this ridiculously limited individual is like King Canute believing he can stop the tide. It's absurd. Thorn's own behaviour is not above scrutiny either. The so called digs at our owners are well timed and serve as a distraction (strange how those comments are not staged or forced). They are clearly staged. He is a corporate man and a SISU man first and a manager second. The notion he cares is laughable - except for his SISU paycheck.
While Thorn remains, SISU remain and the club will get dragged further into the depths. But never mind as like as "Thorny" is looked after that is all we care about - isn't it?
It may be to do with the old Hans christian Anderson Fable KD "The King Is In The Altogether ".
shy_tall_knight
Well-Known Member
I'm back from my funeral to join the wake that is CCFC. Great post Grendel, exactly how I feel about AT. it is unhealthy for fans too feel sorry for the manager when we have an under performing team. We lose to Yeovil - "poor andy SISU have left him nothing to work with".
Just ask yourself would any of the teams in our division seek to appoint Andy as their new manager following his performances to date at Coventry, I think we all know the answer and if they won't have him, why should we .
Just ask yourself would any of the teams in our division seek to appoint Andy as their new manager following his performances to date at Coventry, I think we all know the answer and if they won't have him, why should we .
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Sisu are our owners and they are going nowhere either but everyone talks about that.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
But like you say - SISU are the owners and employ him, so ultimately it is all down to them.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
That, however, is the same for every club and yet when a manager fails message boards, local phone ins etc are bombared with comments aimed at removing the manager. Having a good manager has to be a crucial ingredient for a football club and therefore will always be a hot topic especially when statistically the present incumbent is weak.