The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (92 Viewers)

martcov · Apr 8, 2017

ccfc92 said:
@martcov I just had one question, why are you so worried about Brexit, the UK etc, as you seem so settled in Germany?

Just to clarify, I respect your opinion and stance on subjects, and enjoy debating with you on the EU

I still have relations here ( Cov )and my daughter is at school/ college here ( college in Bournemouth is part funded by the EU ) and just because I live outside the U.K. doesn't mean I have lost my affinity with the UK. I am in the UK now - stayed on a while after Wembley. I think Brexit will screw the U.K. up and take no pleasure in that. Time will tell. If it turns out well, maybe my daughter will see her future in England... then ok. If it goes pear shaped she can stay in the EU... I want her to have that choice by having 2 passports - dual nationality- and part education in the U.K.. I hope future generations have the same choice.

Sick Boy · Apr 8, 2017

I'm beginning to think that the UK will end up inside the single market and continuing to allow freedom of movement, potentially with some sort of emergency brake option for 10 years or so

shmmeee · Apr 8, 2017

Sick Boy said:
I'm beginning to think that the UK will end up inside the single market and continuing to allow freedom of movement, potentially with some sort of emergency brake option for 10 years or so

The day May comes back and says she wants FoM is the day she stops being PM, she's laid with wolves there, both in her party and the press.

We will end up paying for access and things like passporting and maybe reduced visa stuff but I can't see anyone getting FoM past the rabid right at the moment.

Sick Boy · Apr 8, 2017

shmmeee said:
The day May comes back and says she wants FoM is the day she stops being PM, she's laid with wolves there, both in her party and the press.

We will end up paying for access and things like passporting and maybe reduced visa stuff but I can't see anyone getting FoM past the rabid right at the moment.

Economically I am not sure whether or not she will have a choice. I can't believe so many people are happy to lose their right to FoM.

Kingokings204 · Apr 9, 2017

Sick Boy said:
I'm beginning to think that the UK will end up inside the single market and continuing to allow freedom of movement, potentially with some sort of emergency brake option for 10 years or so

The choice has been made. If we do end up staying in the single market and have FOM. That would be a betrayal of the vote. Wouldn't shock me if it happened so I kind of agree with you.

I voted to come out of the single market and put a control on immigration (not stop it) if that doesn't happen then not only is it a betrayal we will just get bigger election results further down the line. People won't stand for it.

Sick Boy · Apr 9, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
The choice has been made. If we do end up staying in the single market and have FOM. That would be a betrayal of the vote. Wouldn't shock me if it happened so I kind of agree with you.

I voted to come out of the single market and put a control on immigration (not stop it) if that doesn't happen then not only is it a betrayal we will just get bigger election results further down the line. People won't stand for it.

Bigger election results? The UK is fast becoming a one-party state. I expect the country will leave the EU but stay in the SM and adopt something similar to the Norway model, no matter how unpopular it may be with some.

There will be those more reluctant leave voters who will no doubt accept such a compromise. When you have the likes of the UKIP guy from Leave Means Leave claiming that EU migrants should earn at least 35K post-Brexit, is it hardly a surprise? Good luck with the NHS if that happens.

Grendel · Apr 9, 2017

Out of interest given that a lot of the tenure of this discussion centres around the rabid right, the racists are any of these posters actually members of the Labour Party who make these accusations?

Are they still members or have they resigned? The party is clearly up there with the best in terms of it's hierarchy acknowledging it fully is accepting of a racist agenda. It seens overtly at least far far more racist that UKIP - it's polit bureau would do Oswald Moseley proud.

Of the mainstream parties it is we now know clearly the one that sanctions racism so if you support it....

Sick Boy · Apr 9, 2017

I was a member of Labour up until Corbyn's re-election.

As I've said earlier in this thread, British has made me feel completely disillusioned, and I doubt there's a party I'd vote for at the moment.

mrtrench · Apr 9, 2017

Sick Boy said:
The UK is fast becoming a one-party state.

A phrase normally used of a dictatorship. And yet we have a democracy, Just because there is no other party with a moderate manifesto it doesn't make the UK a "one-party state".

SIR ERNIE · Apr 10, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
The choice has been made. If we do end up staying in the single market and have FOM. That would be a betrayal of the vote. Wouldn't shock me if it happened so I kind of agree with you.

I voted to come out of the single market and put a control on immigration (not stop it) if that doesn't happen then not only is it a betrayal we will just get bigger election results further down the line. People won't stand for it.

Correct Kingokings. The genie is out of the bottle following the referendum result and the people won't stand for anything less than full exit from the rotten, crumbling EU. As I've said before, there are plenty of powerful institutions and individuals who will do everything possible to prevent Brexit but ultimately the will of the electorate will prevail.

Oh, and we will all still be free to move and travel wherever we want, just as before; this ridiculous 'Freedom of Movement' argument is a red herring for UK nationals but a golden ticket if you're an Eastern European.

Sick Boy · Apr 10, 2017

mrtrench said:
A phrase normally used of a dictatorship. And yet we have a democracy, Just because there is no other party with a moderate manifesto it doesn't make the UK a "one-party state".

I knew you'd bite at that one.

martcov · Apr 10, 2017

Grendel said:
Out of interest given that a lot of the tenure of this discussion centres around the rabid right, the racists are any of these posters actually members of the Labour Party who make these accusations?

Are they still members or have they resigned? The party is clearly up there with the best in terms of it's hierarchy acknowledging it fully is accepting of a racist agenda. It seens overtly at least far far more racist that UKIP - it's polit bureau would do Oswald Moseley proud.

Of the mainstream parties it is we now know clearly the one that sanctions racism so if you support it....

I certainly are not in the Labour Party. I remember "the pound in your pocket", the power of the unions, the winter of discontent, Tony Benn as industry minister etc.... Having said that, I was in a moderate union, on a union committee, and do have a social conscience. Red Ken's comments about Hitler are stupid. Doing a deal on the Jewish question with some Jews, doesn't make Hitler a supporter of Zionism. There are also pictures of Nazis with the Mufti of Jerusalem in Germany which would suggest sympathy with the enemies of Zionism.

The whole scandal was unnecessary and is weakening the opposition.

Labour seems to be imploding instead of offering robust opposition to the most right wing government in more than a generation.

mrtrench · Apr 10, 2017

martcov said:
offering robust opposition to the most right wing government in more than a generation.

Most right wing ever, not just a generation surely?

martcov · Apr 10, 2017

mrtrench said:
Most right wing ever, not just a generation surely?

Since Henry VIII? Same methods- at least tried them.;-)

shmmeee · Apr 10, 2017

Grendel said:
Out of interest given that a lot of the tenure of this discussion centres around the rabid right, the racists are any of these posters actually members of the Labour Party who make these accusations?

Are they still members or have they resigned? The party is clearly up there with the best in terms of it's hierarchy acknowledging it fully is accepting of a racist agenda. It seens overtly at least far far more racist that UKIP - it's polit bureau would do Oswald Moseley proud.

Of the mainstream parties it is we now know clearly the one that sanctions racism so if you support it....

I'll probably let it lapse. I've paid my £1 as a student so I'm a member until September unless I do something drastic like write a letter.

Frankly, it's fucked these days. Still hope there might be something salvageable post Corbyn, but who knows. It's sad that the best case scenario seems to be the McDonnell amendment gets through and the mental part of the membership is split between billions of choices so a sensible one gets through
the middle.

That said, what Livingstone said, even what Jackie Walker said, is fuck all compared to the likes of Farage and his NF buddies. Neither should be in the party though. While we're throwing mud, have a look at Zach Goldsmith's London campaign and tell me the Tories are anti-racism (or, you know Boris Johnson).

Kingokings204 · Apr 11, 2017

SIR ERNIE said:
Correct Kingokings. The genie is out of the bottle following the referendum result and the people won't stand for anything less than full exit from the rotten, crumbling EU. As I've said before, there are plenty of powerful institutions and individuals who will do everything possible to prevent Brexit but ultimately the will of the electorate will prevail.

Oh, and we will all still be free to move and travel wherever we want, just as before; this ridiculous 'Freedom of Movement' argument is a red herring for UK nationals but a golden ticket if you're an Eastern European.

These people you quote want freedom of movement and all the trimmings from the eu still and they simply can't accept we voted to leave. They don't get it therefore we must be stupid and racist and the other names they chuck at us. (Not everyone) Freedom of movement is a fancy term for cheap labour and paying low wages. It suits rich people. Of course it does.

You do a little digging and you realize half or more of the elite/politicians have european companies or companies that trade within Europe so they exploit and get all the benefits. Look at that cretin Branson. Knows nothing about living a working life in Sunderland or grimsby and how communites have completely changed but tells us we must vote again and get it right this time. All because he might have to pay some decent wages and have stricter controls on his movements. My heart bleeds. His contempt for democracy and this country is sickening. Keep counting your billions in the British Virgin Islands and leave us to it. There is a good chap.

Sick Boy · Apr 11, 2017

If you genuinely believe that Brexit is about the working classes and paying higher wages, you're likely to be extremely disappointed.

Your view of FoM is also quite sad and one that is not shared by others around the continent. There has been concern about non-EU migration but not with regards to EU citizens moving and travelling around.

Why should German working in say, Sweden get paid less? When I previously worked in Italy it was more or less £ for € and I was on a similar wage but had a much lower cost of living.

mrtrench · Apr 11, 2017

shmmeee said:
That said, what Livingstone said, even what Jackie Walker said, is fuck all compared to the likes of Farage and his NF buddies. Neither should be in the party though. While we're throwing mud, have a look at Zach Goldsmith's London campaign and tell me the Tories are anti-racism (or, you know Boris Johnson).

A couple of thoughts.

1. Nobody comes out well IMO on the Livingstone debacle. Livingstone himself because even though what he said this time wasn't explicitly racist IMO (he's stating something he believes to be a fact), he's said it in an insensitive way and refused to apologise and rephrase. All the people over-reacting and calling for his head - which is purely politics. And Corbyn for betraying his friend and not persuading him to apologise and explain. And also for dilly-dallying and not expelling him if he really believes that he's crossed the line. What Naz Shah did was worse IMO - and Livingstone's defence of her is also worse than his Hitler was a Zionist malarkey. My wife tends to be rather cynical, and she believes that a faction of the Labour party has decided to be anti-Semitic because they see more votes from Muslims now. I think it's more down to their class hate: many Jews excel in business and many in Labour, whilst not being racist are very "classist".

2. Apart from the NF (and many of the nutters in UKIP), there aren't racist parties, just some racist people. I don't believe that most of the Labour MPs are racist or indeed most of the Tories. Johnson has certainly said some insensitive stuff too but not worse than Shah.

mrtrench · Apr 11, 2017

Sick Boy said:
If you genuinely believe that Brexit is about the working classes and paying higher wages, you're likely to be extremely disappointed.

Go on then, I'll bite again. Are you giggling as you write?

mrtrench · Apr 11, 2017

Just saying, that if all the moderates leave the Labour party then it really is lost forever. Where's Kinnock when you need him?

Just think, had the right Miliband won, we might well have a Labour government now. Ed should go down as the most selfish and stupid politician ever.

Kingokings204 · Apr 11, 2017

Sick Boy said:
If you genuinely believe that Brexit is about the working classes and paying higher wages, you're likely to be extremely disappointed.

Your view of FoM is also quite sad and one that is not shared by others around the continent. There has been concern about non-EU migration but not with regards to EU citizens moving and travelling around.

Why should German working in say, Sweden get paid less? When I previously worked in Italy it was more or less £ for € and I was on a similar wage but had a much lower cost of living.

You say my FOM views are not shared by others except the other 17.4m people who voted brexit perhaps? Just a thought.

Also whilst you reply do enlighten me on what brexit really means? As a brexit voter I don't really know you see.

Sick Boy · Apr 11, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
You say my FOM views are not shared by others except the other 17.4m people who voted brexit perhaps? Just a thought.

Also whilst you reply do enlighten me on what brexit really means? As a brexit voter I don't really know you see.

I was talking on a European wide level, not just the UK.

I was putting my own opinion forward. It has already meant that issues that were much more pressing will be ignored and the wealth gap within society will rise. Grater globalisation will also lead to more misery for those who are already sufreeing and struggling to make ends meet.

chiefdave · May 1, 2017

There's a report in FAZ (German newspaper) on May’s dinner with Juncker, it doesn't make for good reading. Its in German but a reporter from the Economist has translated the major points:

1) May had said she wanted to talk not just Brexit but also world problems; but in practice it fell to Juncker to propose one to discuss.

2) May has made clear to the Commission that she fully expects to be reelected as PM.

3) It is thought [in the Commission] that May wants to frustrate the daily business of the EU27, to improve her own negotiating position.

4) May seemed pissed off at Davis for regaling her dinner guests of his ECJ case against her data retention measures – three times.

5) EU side were astonished at May’s suggestion that EU/UK expats issue could be sorted at EU Council meeting at the end of June.

6) Juncker objected to this timetable as way too optimistic given complexities, eg on rights to health care.

7) Juncker pulled two piles of paper from his bag: Croatia’s EU entry deal, Canada’s free trade deal. His point: Brexit will be v v complex.

8) May wanted to work through the Brexit talks in monthly, 4-day blocks; all confidential until the end of the process.

9) Commission said impossible to reconcile this with need to square off member states & European Parliament, so documents must be published.

10) EU side felt May was seeing whole thing through rose-tinted-glasses. “Let us make Brexit a success” she told them.

11) Juncker countered that Britain will now be a third state, not even (like Turkey) in the customs union: “Brexit cannot be a success”.

12) May seemed surprised by this and seemed to the EU side not to have been fully briefed.

13) She cited her own JHA opt-out negotiations as home sec as a model: a mutually useful agreement meaning lots on paper, little in reality.

14) May’s reference to the JHA (justice and home affairs) opt-outs set off alarm signals for the EU side. This was what they had feared.

15) ie as home sec May opted out of EU measures (playing to UK audience) then opted back in, and wrongly thinks she can do same with Brexit

16) “The more I hear, the more sceptical I become” said Juncker (this was only half way through the dinner)

17) May then insisted to Juncker et al that UK owes EU no money because there is nothing to that effect in the treaties.

18) Her guests then informed her that the EU is not a golf club

19) Davis then objected that EU could not force a post-Brexit, post-ECJ UK to pay the bill. OK, said Juncker, then no trade deal.

20) …leaving EU27 with UK’s unpaid bills will involve national parliaments in process (a point that Berlin had made *repeatedly* before).

21) “I leave Downing St ten times as sceptical as I was before” Juncker told May as he left

22) Next morning at c7am Juncker called Merkel on her mobile, said May living in another galaxy & totally deluding herself

23) Merkel quickly reworked her speech to Bundestag to include her now-famous “some in Britain still have illusions” comment

24) FAZ concludes: May in election mode & playing to crowd, but what use is a big majority won by nurturing delusions of Brexit hardliners?

25) Juncker’s team now think it more likely than not that Brexit talks will collapse & hope Brits wake up to harsh realities in time.

26) What to make of it all? Obviously this leak is a highly tactical move by Commission. But contents deeply worrying for UK nonetheless.

27) The report points to major communications/briefing problems. Important messages from Berlin & Brussels seem not to be getting through.

28) Presumably as a result, May seems to be labouring under some really rather fundamental misconceptions about Brexit & the EU27.

29) Also clear that (as some of us have been warning for a while…) No 10 should expect every detail of the Brexit talks to leak.

30/30) Sorry for the long thread. And a reminder: full credit for all the above reporting on the May/Juncker dinner goes to the FAZ.

mrtrench · May 1, 2017

Juncker can stick his fat cat undemocratic negative bullshit up his arse and fuck off whilst he's doing it. Honestly, what a wanker.

SIR ERNIE · May 1, 2017

mrtrench said:
Juncker can stick his fat cat undemocratic negative bullshit up his arse and fuck off whilst he's doing it. Honestly, what a wanker.

post of the day. brilliant mrtrench

Sick Boy · May 1, 2017

mrtrench said:
Juncker can stick his fat cat undemocratic negative bullshit up his arse and fuck off whilst he's doing it. Honestly, what a wanker.

Reality getting a bit too much for you?

Sick Boy · May 1, 2017

chiefdave said:
There's a report in FAZ (German newspaper) on May’s dinner with Juncker, it doesn't make for good reading. Its in German but a reporter from the Economist has translated the major points:

1) May had said she wanted to talk not just Brexit but also world problems; but in practice it fell to Juncker to propose one to discuss.

2) May has made clear to the Commission that she fully expects to be reelected as PM.

3) It is thought [in the Commission] that May wants to frustrate the daily business of the EU27, to improve her own negotiating position.

4) May seemed pissed off at Davis for regaling her dinner guests of his ECJ case against her data retention measures – three times.

5) EU side were astonished at May’s suggestion that EU/UK expats issue could be sorted at EU Council meeting at the end of June.

6) Juncker objected to this timetable as way too optimistic given complexities, eg on rights to health care.

7) Juncker pulled two piles of paper from his bag: Croatia’s EU entry deal, Canada’s free trade deal. His point: Brexit will be v v complex.

8) May wanted to work through the Brexit talks in monthly, 4-day blocks; all confidential until the end of the process.

9) Commission said impossible to reconcile this with need to square off member states & European Parliament, so documents must be published.

10) EU side felt May was seeing whole thing through rose-tinted-glasses. “Let us make Brexit a success” she told them.

11) Juncker countered that Britain will now be a third state, not even (like Turkey) in the customs union: “Brexit cannot be a success”.

12) May seemed surprised by this and seemed to the EU side not to have been fully briefed.

13) She cited her own JHA opt-out negotiations as home sec as a model: a mutually useful agreement meaning lots on paper, little in reality.

14) May’s reference to the JHA (justice and home affairs) opt-outs set off alarm signals for the EU side. This was what they had feared.

15) ie as home sec May opted out of EU measures (playing to UK audience) then opted back in, and wrongly thinks she can do same with Brexit

16) “The more I hear, the more sceptical I become” said Juncker (this was only half way through the dinner)

17) May then insisted to Juncker et al that UK owes EU no money because there is nothing to that effect in the treaties.

18) Her guests then informed her that the EU is not a golf club

19) Davis then objected that EU could not force a post-Brexit, post-ECJ UK to pay the bill. OK, said Juncker, then no trade deal.

20) …leaving EU27 with UK’s unpaid bills will involve national parliaments in process (a point that Berlin had made *repeatedly* before).

21) “I leave Downing St ten times as sceptical as I was before” Juncker told May as he left

22) Next morning at c7am Juncker called Merkel on her mobile, said May living in another galaxy & totally deluding herself

23) Merkel quickly reworked her speech to Bundestag to include her now-famous “some in Britain still have illusions” comment

24) FAZ concludes: May in election mode & playing to crowd, but what use is a big majority won by nurturing delusions of Brexit hardliners?

25) Juncker’s team now think it more likely than not that Brexit talks will collapse & hope Brits wake up to harsh realities in time.

26) What to make of it all? Obviously this leak is a highly tactical move by Commission. But contents deeply worrying for UK nonetheless.

27) The report points to major communications/briefing problems. Important messages from Berlin & Brussels seem not to be getting through.

28) Presumably as a result, May seems to be labouring under some really rather fundamental misconceptions about Brexit & the EU27.

29) Also clear that (as some of us have been warning for a while…) No 10 should expect every detail of the Brexit talks to leak.

30/30) Sorry for the long thread. And a reminder: full credit for all the above reporting on the May/Juncker dinner goes to the FAZ.

May hasn't got a clue about what she is doing. There are going to be plenty who are going to be in for a shock once things kick off. I see the 'they need us to sell their BMWs and cheese to' rubbish that was spouted on here has been shown up for what it is is, rubbish!

mrtrench · May 1, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Reality getting a bit too much for you?

The twat leaked, what I assume is a heavily span, account of a private meeting and came up with some gems like "Brexit can't work". He is a bully and a cad and I want nothing to do with him. I'd have preferred an amicable split but if the wanker wants to play hardball then bring it on - the harder the better. Now is not the time to pander to his galaxy-sized ego - never submit to a bully.

martcov · May 1, 2017

mrtrench said:
Juncker can stick his fat cat undemocratic negative bullshit up his arse and fuck off whilst he's doing it. Honestly, what a wanker.

Er no.... it seems from this that May is the unprepared delusional wanker.

martcov · May 1, 2017

mrtrench said:
The twat leaked, what I assume is a heavily span, account of a private meeting and came up with some gems like "Brexit can't work". He is a bully and a cad and I want nothing to do with him. I'd have preferred an amicable split but if the wanker wants to play hardball then bring it on - the harder the better. Now is not the time to pander to his galaxy-sized ego - never submit to a bully.

Yes, great. Britain versus the rest of the world. It is clear that one unprepared and delusional pm will never be able to make all the deals needed to put the UK in a better position tradewise than it was as a member of the EU. How on earth are we going to negotiate with countries such as the US or even Russia? It will take years and billions of pounds to entangle ourselves from the EU to create a totally independent island off the coast of Europe. Yes, we will have blue passports and be able to tell mad Merkel to get stuffed, but we will be negotiating alone in a weakened position for years to come. The wanker represents 27 potential trading partners, so insult him if you will, but at the end of the day we will be the losers in all this. Go sell weapons to the Saudis and do a deal with the con artist Trump.

martcov · May 1, 2017

SIR ERNIE said:
post of the day. brilliant mrtrench

Yes... thought you'd like that.... take your blue passport and your pounds and ounces, along with your pounds shillings and pence, and negotiate with your mates Trump and Bannon.... Trump knows how to negotiate with people in a weak position...

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · May 1, 2017

Yawn fucking yawn.

I can see the remainers lapping up this latest scripture already.

As for reality? Go and join Gary Linekar in his fantasy world. This latest bout of most probably fake news doesn't change anything.

Sick Boy · May 1, 2017

mrtrench said:
The twat leaked, what I assume is a heavily span, account of a private meeting and came up with some gems like "Brexit can't work". He is a bully and a cad and I want nothing to do with him. I'd have preferred an amicable split but if the wanker wants to play hardball then bring it on - the harder the better. Now is not the time to pander to his galaxy-sized ego - never submit to a bully.

He said that "Brexit cannot be a success", which I took to mean that both the UK and EU will be harmed by it.

Sick Boy · May 1, 2017

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Yawn fucking yawn.

I can see the remainers lapping up this latest scripture already.

As for reality? Go and join Gary Linekar in his fantasy world. This latest bout of most probably fake news doesn't change anything.

Haha I take it that anything that suggests that Brexit is going to be immensely difficult is classed as 'fake news' to you?

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · May 1, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Haha I take it that anything that suggests that Brexit is going to be immensely difficult is classed as 'fake news' to you?

No, but anyone who celebrates anything to do with Brexit that might be negative, but couldn't stop crying when the referendum result was confirmed because they were worried it was the decision which would kill the country strikes me as a bit of a hypocrit.

It isn't even just you. It's a considerable amount of people who voted remain.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (92 Viewers)

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