The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (253 Viewers)

Kingokings204 · May 4, 2017

On and to answer and previous poster on benefits to leaving the EU. Good question.

1. We get to make or trade deals with every single country in the world on our own terms to suit Britain. Big plus wouldn't you say?

2. We get to control borders and decide who comes in to this country skill wise and benefit wise.
Big plus wouldn't you say?

3. Get to make our own laws and regulations to suit our country. Not be told to do them. Big plus wouldn't you say?

4. Our parliament would be sovereign and our courts the highest in the land. If you don't like the parliament then you can vote them out. Big plus wouldn't you say?

5. Not have a European Commissioner who has the sole right to propose legislation on us you know that guy no one in this country has voted for. Really fair that is. Big plus wouldn't you say?

6. Be like any other country in the world who runs their own affairs and does what's best for them not 28 others countries. Just like America and China and India even Iceland and Brazil.

7. Stay out of a distrastrous euro currency that has ruined the Southern European countries and most likely more pain to come and simply just can't afford to leave and they are basically trapped now. They have to keep being bailed out with no hope of ever paying it back oh and accepting all new laws and regs from Brussels.

I could go on

martcov · May 4, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
its quite obvious all this scaremongering and 100billion bill is all a mask.

There is a very big presidential election Sunday in France that people haven't seemed to mention on this thread lately.

The bs and rhetoric from juncker and barnier is quite clearly a threat to the french people on who to vote for Sunday. It's don't vote for Le pen else you will end up like Britain and be "punished" which is ironic when legally there is no bill to settle and pay proven by law and German car workers and french wine producers would be "punished" there own voters if they don't get a good trade deal. I saw it mentioned earlier I don't see many German car workers families being happy if we all in Britain started buying fords niassans and kia's. Etc. who would be punished then? It certainly wouldn't be the British consumer.

I take it you prefer Kias to BMWs, Porsches and Mercs?

Astute · May 4, 2017

martcov said:
The system of government in England is different to, say, when the Magna Carta was drawn up. Things do evolve and successive UK elected governments have agreed all changes or have been part of the EU decision making process, as have our MEPs.

All of which only care about the gravy train continuing. We never voted them in but they decide most things for us. And as for Juncker.....

Astute · May 4, 2017

martcov said:
I take it you prefer Kias to BMWs, Porsches and Mercs?

I love Audis. But if Juncker pushes through import taxes I won't be buying another one. Honda normally does something I like.

martcov · May 4, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
On and to answer and previous poster on benefits to leaving the EU. Good question.

1. We get to make or trade deals with every single country in the world on our own terms to suit Britain. Big plus wouldn't you say?

2. We get to control borders and decide who comes in to this country skill wise and benefit wise.
Big plus wouldn't you say?

3. Get to make our own laws and regulations to suit our country. Not be told to do them. Big plus wouldn't you say?

4. Our parliament would be sovereign and our courts the highest in the land. If you don't like the parliament then you can vote them out. Big plus wouldn't you say?

5. Not have a European Commissioner who has the sole right to propose legislation on us you know that guy no one in this country has voted for. Really fair that is. Big plus wouldn't you say?

6. Be like any other country in the world who runs their own affairs and does what's best for them not 28 others countries. Just like America and China and India even Iceland and Brazil.

7. Stay out of a distrastrous euro currency that has ruined the Southern European countries and most likely more pain to come and simply just can't afford to leave and they are basically trapped now. They have to keep being bailed out with no hope of ever paying it back oh and accepting all new laws and regs from Brussels.

I could go on

1. How do you know trade deals will be better if we negotiate on our own instead of a bloc of 28 countries negotiating for us?

2. We control our borders now and are not in Schengen. Controlling immigration cuts both ways. We need unskilled workers in agriculture, hospitality and to be trained as carers.

3. We get to make our laws now and if we want to export in the future, we will have to conform to other countries' regulations. Like it or not.

4. We have a sovereign parliament - to a point - and we have a supreme court, if we still cannot agree we can go to a European Court, which is not necessarily a bad thing. We cannot vote judges on or off courts anyway - much to the chagrin of Express and Mail readers.

5. The European Commission is composed of people appointed by our - amongst others - elected reprsentatives.

6. We do run our own affairs - to a point. We have our own army, our own tax system, our own currency and our own foreign policy. Our people are protected by some European laws and courts. Not a bad thing. For example being in Europe helped bring about peace in Northern Ireland.

7. We are not in the Euro and there is no pressure on us to join. The euro is a stable currency and, although there are problems, it has brought stability by doing away with fluctuating exchange rates. A lot of the problems we see with former weak currencies were already there. Problems have to be solved, but there is no need for a total break up of the Euro. Maybe greece will have to leave - who knows...

martcov · May 4, 2017

Astute said:
All of which only care about the gravy train continuing. We never voted them in but they decide most things for us. And as for Juncker.....

Gravy training applies to most politicians... Juncker and Farage being up there...

chiefdave · May 4, 2017

OK I'll bite.

Kingokings204 said:
1. We get to make or trade deals with every single country in the world on our own terms to suit Britain. Big plus wouldn't you say?

Whether this is a big plus or not depends on the deals that we manage to make. It won't be a one way thing, everyone we make a deal with will want something in return. Its far from certain we will end up in a better position than we are currently. Its also unknown how long these deals will take to get in place.

Kingokings204 said:
2. We get to control borders and decide who comes in to this country skill wise and benefit wise.
Big plus wouldn't you say?

We have control of our borders, hence why you pass through passport control. What do we do about the Irish border? Given the level of non-EU migrants do you think the issue is actually with us being a member of the EU or is there another issue that will still exist?

Kingokings204 said:
3. Get to make our own laws and regulations to suit our country. Not be told to do them. Big plus wouldn't you say?

Could be a big plus but it depends on the laws being made. Just because we're making them ourselves there's no guarantee they will be 'better' than EU laws. In any case we'll still need to abide by a lot of EU law and regulations in order to trade with EU countries. Are there any laws imposed by the EU that you object to in particular?

Kingokings204 said:
4. Our parliament would be sovereign and our courts the highest in the land. If you don't like the parliament then you can vote them out. Big plus wouldn't you say?

We already have parliamentary sovereignty.

Kingokings204 said:
5. Not have a European Commissioner who has the sole right to propose legislation on us you know that guy no one in this country has voted for. Really fair that is. Big plus wouldn't you say?

Any examples? Given our record of only being on the losing side of a vote in 2% of cases alongside our veto rights how often are we having unwanted legislation forced upon us?

Kingokings204 said:
6. Be like any other country in the world who runs their own affairs and does what's best for them not 28 others countries. Just like America and China and India even Iceland and Brazil.

Agreed, but as I said before there's no guarantee that having that power will lead to a net benefit. Hopefully it does but it is a long way from being a certainty.

Kingokings204 said:
7. Stay out of a distrastrous euro currency that has ruined the Southern European countries and most likely more pain to come and simply just can't afford to leave and they are basically trapped now. They have to keep being bailed out with no hope of ever paying it back oh and accepting all new laws and regs from Brussels.

Last time I checked we still had the pound.

Kingokings204 · May 4, 2017

chiefdave said:
OK I'll bite.

Whether this is a big plus or not depends on the deals that we manage to make. It won't be a one way thing, everyone we make a deal with will want something in return. Its far from certain we will end up in a better position than we are currently. Its also unknown how long these deals will take to get in place.

We have control of our borders, hence why you pass through passport control. What do we do about the Irish border? Given the level of non-EU migrants do you think the issue is actually with us being a member of the EU or is there another issue that will still exist?

Could be a big plus but it depends on the laws being made. Just because we're making them ourselves there's no guarantee they will be 'better' than EU laws. In any case we'll still need to abide by a lot of EU law and regulations in order to trade with EU countries. Are there any laws imposed by the EU that you object to in particular?

We already have parliamentary sovereignty.

Any examples? Given our record of only being on the losing side of a vote in 2% of cases alongside our veto rights how often are we having unwanted legislation forced upon us?

Agreed, but as I said before there's no guarantee that having that power will lead to a net benefit. Hopefully it does but it is a long way from being a certainty.

Last time I checked we still had the pound.

I knew I would get some bites there. I wasn't fishing it's what I believe and what I believe in. Look I get it you two chiefdave and martcov don't like brexit and fair enough you voted for remain. I get the arguements to staying in the EU as well but I weighed up both options and I chose to leave Because I believe this to be the best decision. You two are allowed to disagree with me as you have both replied to my benefits of the eu post but it can't all be bad leaving the eu even in your eyes.

Kingokings204 · May 4, 2017

martcov said:
I take it you prefer Kias to BMWs, Porsches and Mercs?

No actually I don't but if tariffs were put on German cars but then we got a free trade deal say on American or Asian cars then cost would be a real issue for people and many would switch. There are plenty of other cars in the world to buy that are nice also. I own a German car myself but if it worked out better to buy a Ford or a Toyota then I would as would many others and that's my point who loses then? Me and many others with a brand new Toyota or whatever car or the German car workers being laid off because the demand isn't there anymore.

martcov · May 4, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
No actually I don't but if tariffs were put on German cars but then we got a free trade deal say on American or Asian cars then cost would be a real issue for people and many would switch. There are plenty of other cars in the world to buy that are nice also. I own a German car myself but if it worked out better to buy a Ford or a Toyota then I would as would many others and that's my point who loses then? Me and many others with a brand new Toyota or whatever car or the German car workers being laid off because the demand isn't there anymore.

There's massive demand for German cars in China.... so, maybe they will concentrate on other markets..

Grendel · May 4, 2017

ccfc92 said:
Corbyn is anti-EU? :S

Genuine question

Corbyn has always voted against the EU in every parliamentary vote he has taken part in

This isn't surprising. The only party that ever had in its manifesto to leave the EU was the Labour Party in the early 1980's fronted by Foot and Benn - Corbyns heros.

The communist party and the socialist revolutionary workers party campaigned in this referendum for Brexit.

Brexit is essentially supportive of socialist ideology.

Astute · May 4, 2017

martcov said:
There's massive demand for German cars in China.... so, maybe they will concentrate on other markets..

Yes maybe....

Juncker can cause more problems for those who remain in the EU just to get one over us. It is one thing or the other. Either he is using brexit and what he says will happen to try and get us to stay or he doesn't care how much it will effect those left in it. Yes we would suffer if large tariffs were applied but so would the companies that sell to us.

SIR ERNIE · May 4, 2017

martcov said:
Doesn't show the 27 opponents in the opposite corner- not enough space in the paper.

No, and the cartoon also doesn't show the weight of German manufacturing industries who will line up behind our PM should there be any whiff of tit-for-tat tariffs.

The UK is in a very strong negotiating position. The PM knows it and the EU know it.

Kingokings204 · May 4, 2017

SIR ERNIE said:
No, and the cartoon also doesn't show the weight of German manufacturing industries who will line up behind our PM should there be any whiff of tit-for-tat tariffs.

The UK is in a very strong negotiating position. The PM knows it and the EU know it.

I think the eu does know it and that's why in my opinion they are scared and upset. Maybe the gravy train might end sooner than they hoped.

The bill has gone from 50 to 100 billion in the space of a week or so, that's just clear panic and desperation and I don't blame them. Of course they are going to miss our contributions and they know it. It's got to be made up somehow and that will fall on the other countries most likely to pay up. This is what causes the arguements. Trying to keep everyone happy.

martcov · May 4, 2017

Astute said:
Yes maybe....

Juncker can cause more problems for those who remain in the EU just to get one over us. It is one thing or the other. Either he is using brexit and what he says will happen to try and get us to stay or he doesn't care how much it will effect those left in it. Yes we would suffer if large tariffs were applied but so would the companies that sell to us.

He is not a king. He has a job to do and he is not the chief negotiator, so whether or not he wants to get one over on anyone is irrelevant. You give him too much credence.

martcov · May 4, 2017

Grendel said:
Corbyn has always voted against the EU in every parliamentary vote he has taken part in

This isn't surprising. The only party that ever had in its manifesto to leave the EU was the Labour Party in the early 1980's fronted by Foot and Benn - Corbyns heros.

The communist party and the socialist revolutionary workers party campaigned in this referendum for Brexit.

Brexit is essentially supportive of socialist ideology.

All very good reasons for voting remain- pity more didn't twig this.

martcov · May 4, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
I think the eu does know it and that's why in my opinion they are scared and upset. Maybe the gravy train might end sooner than they hoped.

The bill has gone from 50 to 100 billion in the space of a week or so, that's just clear panic and desperation and I don't blame them. Of course they are going to miss our contributions and they know it. It's got to be made up somehow and that will fall on the other countries most likely to pay up. This is what causes the arguements. Trying to keep everyone happy.

Everyone's a loser. If we had have stayed in we wouldn't have this damaging stand off and years of messing around before us. Stay in and reform would have cost less in terms of the civil service and we would not have to go round looking for trade deals. We had them through the EU anyway.

Now we face the prospect of an underfunded NHS - despite the promise written on a red bus - and even less people to recruit from because of EU migration cut backs - amongst other things such as the decline of the City - our crown jewel - to face up to.

Buying a Honda to screw Merkel may give some people short term pleasure, but we have made ourselves, and the EU problems for at least 5 to 10 years... for basically fuck all...

SkyblueBazza · May 4, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Like what?

Any trade deal is going to massively favour those countries over us and they are going to smell blood. It seems that some are going to have to get used to Britain's diminished power within the world.

Like Wiskey, cars, fashions anything!

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

chiefdave · May 4, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
I knew I would get some bites there. I wasn't fishing it's what I believe and what I believe in. Look I get it you two chiefdave and martcov don't like brexit and fair enough you voted for remain. I get the arguements to staying in the EU as well but I weighed up both options and I chose to leave Because I believe this to be the best decision. You two are allowed to disagree with me as you have both replied to my benefits of the eu post but it can't all be bad leaving the eu even in your eyes.

I don't dislike brexit, just yet to be convinced. At the start of this whole thing I was remain purely on the basis of better the devil you know but I was certainly open to being convinced to vote leave. However I didn't see anything from the leave campaign that convinced me, seemed to be a lot of promises that couldn't be backed up.

Not much seems to have been changed and I think there's still a lot of 'everything will be fantastic' from the leave site without any real indication of what will happen. Phrases like brexit means brexit and hard brexit get thrown around but it means little.

Does concern me that we're nearly a year on from the vote and very little in terms of planning the path forward seems to have happened. We're now side tracked by a general election which will be followed by elections in Germany that mean realistically we're going to be down to about 12 months to sort everything. When you look at how long things like the Canadian deal took, with two sides that were cooperating, I don't have much faith in a government who are taking the stance of not paying the exit bill and being 'bloody difficult' getting things done in that amount of time so we then enter an extended period of limbo and if there's one thing the economy falters on its uncertainty.

Kingokings204 · May 4, 2017

martcov said:
Everyone's a loser. If we had have stayed in we wouldn't have this damaging stand off and years of messing around before us. Stay in and reform would have cost less in terms of the civil service and we would not have to go round looking for trade deals. We had them through the EU anyway.

Now we face the prospect of an underfunded NHS - despite the promise written on a red bus - and even less people to recruit from because of EU migration cut backs - amongst other things such as the decline of the City - our crown jewel - to face up to.

Buying a Honda to screw Merkel may give some people short term pleasure, but we have made ourselves, and the EU problems for at least 5 to 10 years... for basically fuck all...

Don't see it like that myself but I understand your view point.

I see it as Britain won't be the last out of this failing club. For me it just doesn't work trying to keep 28 countries happy soon 27. It's too many and too big and you see problems with migrant quotas and the euro currency.

What brexit and trump shows you whether you agree with it or not that people are fed up with the political class and thei globalization route. 2016 was the return of nation state democracy that people like myself believe in. Le pen in France has alaready won the election in France by that I mean even if she loses she has moved the debate so far to her side of the court that french politics won't be the same ever again after Sunday.

It's happening everywhere as you correctly pointed out martcov. Right wing and some even extreme right wing is getting good results in their country. Why?

dutchman · May 4, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
The bill has gone from 50 to 100 billion in the space of a week or so, that's just clear panic and desperation and I don't blame them. Of course they are going to miss our contributions and they know it. It's got to be made up somehow and that will fall on the other countries most likely to pay up.

Yep Germany and Holland, our pensions have already been cut back in order to bail out profligate EU countries.

martcov · May 4, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
Don't see it like that myself but I understand your view point.

I see it as Britain won't be the last out of this failing club. For me it just doesn't work trying to keep 28 countries happy soon 27. It's too many and too big and you see problems with migrant quotas and the euro currency.

What brexit and trump shows you whether you agree with it or not that people are fed up with the political class and thei globalization route. 2016 was the return of nation state democracy that people like myself believe in. Le pen in France has alaready won the election in France by that I mean even if she loses she has moved the debate so far to her side of the court that french politics won't be the same ever again after Sunday.

It's happening everywhere as you correctly pointed out martcov. Right wing and some even extreme right wing is getting good results in their country. Why?

Look at who's following them? It is the people who are scared of not being able to control their own destiny. They fear for their economic future. They are basically right to seek help, but Trump is a twister, a clown and a fraudster, Farage is an ex trader and gravy trainer, and Le Pen leads a party formed by ex collaborateurs and other extreme right people. These are the wrong people to follow. They are effectively the enemy of the poor and disenfranchised. Apart from guiding them in the wrong direction by placing the blame on an institution which most people do not understand, and on foreigners and heating up prejudices against people of other beliefs or sexual persuasions, they offer few ideas and solutions which could actually benefit their followers. But, you know what, I don't think they give a toss about that.

martcov · May 4, 2017

dutchman said:
Yep Germany and Holland, our pensions have already been cut back in order to bail out profligate EU countries.

That's news. They are increasing the pensions in Germany - and will soon have equal pensions in East and West. They are aiming for the third year of adding no debt in the budget. Employment has fallen - again - to just above 5%. The euro is strong and the 27 are more united than ever before.

I will never have a state pension because I m self employed, so I am not too bothered, but I am pleased to see that pensions are going up. Just wish they were going up more as pensioners have been neglected in the past.

Liquid Gold · May 4, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Chances are they will be the generation reapplying for EU membership.

I think that's a highly pertinent point that hasn't been discussed. Brexit has mobilised a whole generation of young people in favour of the EU. We know the statistics based on age and voting preference.

Essentially what will happen is Britain rejoining the EU in 20 years time as a poorer and weaker state that has had no say on European legislation during that period. We would also have to accept the euro as part of becoming a new member.

dutchman · May 4, 2017

martcov said:
That's news. They are increasing the pensions in Germany - and will soon have equal pensions in East and West.

Both countries have increased the age at which anyone qualifies for a state pension, it's currently 70 in Holland and increasing to 67 in Germany. This is effectively a cut.

martcov said:
I will never have a state pension because I m self employed, so I am not too bothered, but I am pleased to see that pensions are going up. Just wish they were going up more as pensioners have been neglected in the past.

Just pray your health doesn't deteriorate before you can afford to retire.

skybluetony176 · May 4, 2017

What are going to be the nett benefits in real terms? The only one I've heard so far is that we'll get cheaper oranges. Reason being that all oranges being imported into the EU get hit with a big tariff to protect the Spanish orange growing industry.

Is that the nett gain here or is there more to it than cheap oranges? I keep asking brexiteers and just keep getting we'll be free to make our own trade deals. What does that mean in real terms? No one seems to be able to tell me. I didn't even get the orange exclusive from anyone I know who is pro brexit, I heard it on the radio.

shmmeee · May 4, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
On and to answer and previous poster on benefits to leaving the EU. Good question.

1. We get to make or trade deals with every single country in the world on our own terms to suit Britain. Big plus wouldn't you say?

We already have trade deals with most of the world through the EU. As the smaller partner in the important Ines (US, China, EU) we certainly won't get terms to suit us, we'll get what we are given.

2. We get to control borders and decide who comes in to this country skill wise and benefit wise.
Big plus wouldn't you say?

A decent argument, but we chose to do less to protect our borders than other EU countries, like insist on people having jobs or using transitional controls, so seems a bit silly to spit out dummy over it now. Talk to the successive governments, including one with May as Home Sec, that decided the economy was more important.

3. Get to make our own laws and regulations to suit our country. Not be told to do them. Big plus wouldn't you say?

We always have. Parliament has always been sovereign, we also follow EU law more strictly than their nations like France, so again blame Parliament. Also if we want to trade we will have to follow agreed rules anyway, wasn't free trade a big plus? Well enjoy America setting your food standards because we want them to drink whiskey.

4. Our parliament would be sovereign and our courts the highest in the land. If you don't like the parliament then you can vote them out. Big plus wouldn't you say?

This is the same as the last one. Our parliaments and courts have always been sovereign.

5. Not have a European Commissioner who has the sole right to propose legislation on us you know that guy no one in this country has voted for. Really fair that is. Big plus wouldn't you say?

Hardly anyone voted for May (just her constituents), no one voted for her as PM. Like UK Parliament, laws had to be passed by a Parliament arguably more democratically elected thanks to PR. Also as every nation had a veto, it was far less centralised than our parliament.

6. Be like any other country in the world who runs their own affairs and does what's best for them not 28 others countries. Just like America and China and India even Iceland and Brazil.

Iceland is a bit random, it's the size of Cov and has huge fish and energy resources for its size. The others are fricken superpowers with populations and land mass way in excess of ours. They will eat us alive in negotiations. The whole point of the EU was to let smaller countries punch above their weight with the.big guys.

7. Stay out of a distrastrous euro currency that has ruined the Southern European countries and most likely more pain to come and simply just can't afford to leave and they are basically trapped now. They have to keep being bailed out with no hope of ever paying it back oh and accepting all new laws and regs from Brussels.

We were never going to join the Euro, it was never on the cards and we had made that clear and had special status as a result. If our economy tanks andnin the future we want back in however, we will probably have to. Also, like Germany, our natural currency value would likely be higher than the Euro and therefore we'd benefit rather than be like somewhere like Greece.

I could go on

Please do. I'm sure you'll find a valid reason that isn't easily disprovable eventually.

fernandopartridge · May 4, 2017

martcov said:
If there were high import tariffs, competition would be reduced, the pressure would indeed be off inefficient or expensive home industry and they would not concentrate on quality and the price would of goods would go up. That is why people want free trade... to keep prices down and quality up.

The health service will soon be having more problems coping with the increasing elderly population- even more so as staff, especially carers will be hard to find...

You may not be bothered if your house halves in value, but people who have a long mortgage or who have bought to let may see things differently.

Anyway negotiations have only just got underway and it is 1 against 27. the equivalent of a football team having had 4 red cards and trying to win with nearly 90 minutes to go.

I see this going like Trump's presidency.... " it's harder than I thought ".

A simple solution like "let's leave the EU " could turn out to be more than many people bargained for.

The EU are not about genuine free trade. Free. Trade needn't have such an array of strings.

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk

martcov · May 4, 2017

dutchman said:
Both countries have increased the age at which anyone qualifies for a state pension, it's currently 70 in Holland and increasing to 67 in Germany. This is effectively a cut.

Just pray your health doesn't deteriorate before you can afford to retire.

I cannot afford to stop- selfemployed employer...

martcov · May 4, 2017

fernandopartridge said:
The EU are not about genuine free trade. Free. Trade needn't have such an array of strings.

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk

Yes it does. Free Trade on equal terms.., otherwise it's not free trade.

eastwoodsdustman · May 5, 2017

pettiest man in politics?
Brexit: English language 'losing importance' - EU's Juncker - BBC News

martcov · May 5, 2017

eastwoodsdustman said:
pettiest man in politics?
Brexit: English language 'losing importance' - EU's Juncker - BBC News

Seems to be winding people like you up... mind you, he had to take crap from that nauseating creep Farage for years. Probably enjoying himself and getting a few laughs.

It will be interesting to see what happens long term about the languages used in the EU. They will be using a language that no member state has as a mother tongue if they stick to English.

But, for now Juncker is just enjoying himself... as Farage used to..

dutchman · May 5, 2017

The EU won't be around long enough to matter what language it uses!

martcov · May 5, 2017

dutchman said:
The EU won't be around long enough to matter what language it uses!

Have you got a link to this information?

dutchman · May 5, 2017

martcov said:
Have you got a link to this information?

Yep, here you go:
The EU: In, out, shake it all about....

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (253 Viewers)

As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

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