The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (74 Viewers)

shmmeee · Sep 27, 2019

CCFCSteve said:
Agree that the Tories should’ve tried to have build consensus across the house.

There’s various things I don’t agree with though, talking about us trying to follow a Singapore model for one (no evidence). Also, we haven’t even got onto trade talks with the EU yet and there is no doubt that MPs will end up having a say on what’s agreed, so labour had a chance to influence this in future.

The rest of the WA is known to tick many of Labours boxes.

Ps I might be being naive but I also think Johnson does want a deal

I think Johnson wants a deal, he just believes he can wipe out Labour with the rhetoric of people vs parliament at an election.

On Singapore style Brexit:

Ten Singapore-style tax-free ports to be created after Brexit

Boris Johnson plans Singapore-style tax-free zones around UK to power post-Brexit economy

Subscribe to read | Financial Times

Merkel warns of danger to EU of Singapore-style UK on its border

Hunt says UK 'can learn' from Singapore

The Tories haven’t changed. They aren’t suddenly big state tax and spenders.

shmmeee · Sep 27, 2019

Alan Dugdales Moustache said:
That one seat could just be enough. :happy:

Ask the Greens how that’s going.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Sep 27, 2019

Sick Boy said:
you want a GE fought on a single issue? Wow.

Grendel said:
Where did I say that?

Grendel said:
Which surely means we need a general election where all parties have a manifesto and then the public choose. If there is a majority the will is delivered

Grendel said:
Regardless of if there is a referendum or not do you really think the next election will not be about Brexit. The Tories would request again to revoke article 50

Brighton Sky Blue · Sep 27, 2019

Wasting your time dude

Grendel · Sep 27, 2019

So I didn’t say it

dutchman · Sep 28, 2019

shmmeee said:
Most seat projections put BXP on one seat.

That's assuming Johnson delivers. When he doesn't there'll be a huge swing to the British party.

Astute · Sep 28, 2019

shmmeee said:
Utter nonsense.

We need a referendum to make it clear what the actual will of the actual people is then that’ll be done.

Or we need a barely competent PM who doesn’t piss off everyone needed to get a vote through on a deal.

The fact you’re whining that the biggest post war project hasn’t been planned from scratch and implemented inside of three years suggests a massive naivety about either the scale of the project or governments standard workings.

It’d be like asking why HS2 hasn’t happened yet.

Utter nonsense?

I see you don't mention one point I bring up. Yet the two words is a good reply?

We did have a referendum to find out what the will of the people is. That is what started this shambles off.

Blah blah blah they didn't know what they voted for. Blah blah blah they didn't tell us the type of way they wanted to leave. Blah blah blah they didn't understand what leave meant.

This is what winds up thise who voted leave. You and others like yourself like to make out they are thick. The question was leave or remain. The answer isn't to try and make the question look harder than it was.

So you agree they voted leave. Why would remain be on another referendum? Just have a list of ways we could leave? But no. It is the remain vote that is wanted and nothing else. And making out that people are thick that didn't agree with you seems to be OK. That us as bad as those who think you are thick for wanting to stay in the EU.

Astute · Sep 28, 2019

Ian1779 said:
Not every leaver wants a no-deal either....

Most leavers seem to want a deal that doesn't keep us tied to the EU. If we have to leave most remainers want to have a deal that keeps us tied to the EU.

Astute · Sep 28, 2019

Sick Boy said:
you want a GE fought on a single issue? Wow.

And this is the point that I find funny.

Brexit is the biggest thing for generations. Another referendum would be going against the will of the people. You think the marches against leaving were big? Try to imagine them if Brexit is cancelled. There is no need for the leavers to get overly angry yet.

So hold a GE. Each party says what they want. In or out. This doesn't sit well with Labour sympathisers though as they are trying to be neutral. I am a Labour voter. I want the word to come out. In or out. Not if's or but's.

Come out with whatever else they want. FPTP decides the policies. FPTP on the leave or remain parties decides on another referendum or not. Remain parties win then leave or remain. Leave parties win then best way forward on leaving.

The Tories and Brexit parties are averaging about 45%. Labour and Lib Dems are close to this. Should be a remain result?

Yes it would be the biggest one policy result. But let the people vote in the government they want. Let the people decide and not those with the loudest voice.

clint van damme · Sep 28, 2019

Grendel said:
How old is that? More people in a poll this week said they’d rather heave with no deal than have an extension

What they're saying now isn't as relevant as what they were saying at the time of the vote.
Even Farage was talking about the Norway option so voting leave was not a a clear mandate for no deal.

shmmeee · Sep 28, 2019

Astute said:
Most leavers seem to want a deal that doesn't keep us tied to the EU. If we have to leave most remainers want to have a deal that keeps us tied to the EU.

Here’s the thing.

All Remainers don’t want Hard Brexit. So for there to be a majority for soft Brexit you only need less than 5% of Brexiters to be for it.

Even if 95% of Brexiters want the hardest of Brexits there’s no majority for it. That’s the nature of small margins of victory.

shmmeee · Sep 28, 2019

Astute said:
And this is the point that I find funny.

Brexit is the biggest thing for generations. Another referendum would be going against the will of the people. You think the marches against leaving were big? Try to imagine them if Brexit is cancelled. There is no need for the leavers to get overly angry yet.

So hold a GE. Each party says what they want. In or out. This doesn't sit well with Labour sympathisers though as they are trying to be neutral. I am a Labour voter. I want the word to come out. In or out. Not if's or but's.

Come out with whatever else they want. FPTP decides the policies. FPTP on the leave or remain parties decides on another referendum or not. Remain parties win then leave or remain. Leave parties win then best way forward on leaving.

The Tories and Brexit parties are averaging about 45%. Labour and Lib Dems are close to this. Should be a remain result?

Yes it would be the biggest one policy result. But let the people vote in the government they want. Let the people decide and not those with the loudest voice.

If a second referendum results in Remain, that’s the will of the people. Anyone protesting on that point would look rather silly.

I don’t buy this “ooohhhh Brexiters will riot” bollock and even if I did you don’t negotiate with terrorists.

shmmeee · Sep 28, 2019

clint van damme said:
What they're saying now isn't as relevant as what they were saying at the time of the vote.
Even Farage was talking about the Norway option so voting leave was not a a clear mandate for no deal.

Most leavers thought we’d stay in the single market. More so than Remainers. See that graph I posted earlier.

It’s like people think we can’t just go back and see what people thought in 2016. It’s just a few ideologues claiming 17.4m people think just like them with no evidence.

shmmeee · Sep 28, 2019

Astute said:
Utter nonsense?

I see you don't mention one point I bring up. Yet the two words is a good reply?

We did have a referendum to find out what the will of the people is. That is what started this shambles off.

Blah blah blah they didn't know what they voted for. Blah blah blah they didn't tell us the type of way they wanted to leave. Blah blah blah they didn't understand what leave meant.

This is what winds up thise who voted leave. You and others like yourself like to make out they are thick. The question was leave or remain. The answer isn't to try and make the question look harder than it was.

So you agree they voted leave. Why would remain be on another referendum? Just have a list of ways we could leave? But no. It is the remain vote that is wanted and nothing else. And making out that people are thick that didn't agree with you seems to be OK. That us as bad as those who think you are thick for wanting to stay in the EU.

The real question is why are you so scared of Remain being on the ballot? If Leave is still the will of the people, then it’ll win, right?

As for “they didn’t say how to leave” it’s a fact. One you and others refuse to address.

Best analogy is we were all in the pub and voted to leave. Where do we go? “Leave” isn’t an instruction. Any decent therapist will tel you how bad “away from” goals are in life. They don’t tell you where to go, they leave you in paralysis because “I don’t want this” opens you up to a multitude of things that “I do want this” doesn’t.

If it’s not a valid point, why have we spent three years arguing about what we want? And why don’t you want that to end?

To be clear in no way is it Leave voters fault the referendum was badly designed and they expressed their views the only way they could. But it doesn’t change the fact the referendum was badly designed and didn’t give us a clear instruction.

Strikes me that a lot of Brexiters know deep down that they don’t have the majority any more and want to blame someone else for their decision.

As for thick, well the evidence is that it wasn’t those who have good information processing skills that voted to Leave. But also it’s those with good information processing skills who aren’t being screwed in the modern economy.

I think most Brexiters had valid concerns, literally all my friends voted Leave so I’ve heard them in some depth. A couple voted to “get rid of blacks” one voted because he thinks Hilary steals babies for the globalists, but most are just pissed off with their lot in life and how the modern economy works. I get that, I just think voting to tank the economy and have the entire rule set rewritten by hard core capitalist Tories won’t give them any better.

Grendel · Sep 28, 2019

shmmeee said:
Most leavers thought we’d stay in the single market. More so than Remainers. See that graph I posted earlier.

It’s like people think we can’t just go back and see what people thought in 2016. It’s just a few ideologues claiming 17.4m people think just like them with no evidence.

That’s not actually the case is it. As that’s not the question that was asked

This is a poll conducted by a pro European and has been shall we say questioned about the style of questioning and how it leads to the answer - oddly enough specifically on this question

It has also been pointed out that this was commissioned two weeks before the referendum. Opinion polls at the time has a larger proportion favouring remain

This skews the survey anyway to extent as some in the remain box voted leave

More crucially the intended voting now is pretty much the same on yes no as then - marginally in favour of remain - which shows that even on an exit without so called full access to the single market (which was non defined) the opinion expressed has not altered the voting intention when even that apparent perception appears to not be in reality likely to meet their alleged desire

skybluetony176 · Sep 28, 2019

PM's links to Arcuri referred to police watchdog

Brighton Sky Blue · Sep 28, 2019

Astute said:
And this is the point that I find funny.

Brexit is the biggest thing for generations. Another referendum would be going against the will of the people. You think the marches against leaving were big? Try to imagine them if Brexit is cancelled. There is no need for the leavers to get overly angry yet.

So hold a GE. Each party says what they want. In or out. This doesn't sit well with Labour sympathisers though as they are trying to be neutral. I am a Labour voter. I want the word to come out. In or out. Not if's or but's.

Come out with whatever else they want. FPTP decides the policies. FPTP on the leave or remain parties decides on another referendum or not. Remain parties win then leave or remain. Leave parties win then best way forward on leaving.

The Tories and Brexit parties are averaging about 45%. Labour and Lib Dems are close to this. Should be a remain result?

Yes it would be the biggest one policy result. But let the people vote in the government they want. Let the people decide and not those with the loudest voice.

Let’s suppose the Brexit Party lands a load of seats with no policies. The Tories or Labour get in purely on their Brexit stance and they can put any kind of crap in their manifesto. The winning party does what they pledge on Brexit and then has a whole term to implement everything else they pledged in the manifesto. The Brexit MPs with no policies to stand on except one would do what post Brexit, exactly? What agenda would they help to implement? Nobody knows but one assumes that with it being a cult they will do whatever Farage says.

Referendum by proxy or a referendum outright is what you’re weighing up. If the ‘will of the people’ has changed or stayed the same, another vote reaffirms either position and we go through with it. In his latest rally Farage said in such a case he would want ‘real Leave’ versus revoke. Referendum by proxy would give a party carte blanche to do all kinds of crap domestically after Brexit is resolved. Don’t like it? Sorry it was in the manifesto and you voted for it.

Make the outcome legally binding. Then let each party outline how it will govern based on a known quantity.

Grendel · Sep 28, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Let’s suppose the Brexit Party lands a load of seats with no policies. The Tories or Labour get in purely on their Brexit stance and they can put any kind of crap in their manifesto. The winning party does what they pledge on Brexit and then has a whole term to implement everything else they pledged in the manifesto. The Brexit MPs with no policies to stand on except one would do what post Brexit, exactly? What agenda would they help to implement? Nobody knows but one assumes that with it being a cult they will do whatever Farage says.

Referendum by proxy or a referendum outright is what you’re weighing up. If the ‘will of the people’ has changed or stayed the same, another vote reaffirms either position and we go through with it. In his latest rally Farage said in such a case he would want ‘real Leave’ versus revoke. Referendum by proxy would give a party carte blanche to do all kinds of crap domestically after Brexit is resolved. Don’t like it? Sorry it was in the manifesto and you voted for it.

Make the outcome legally binding. Then let each party outline how it will govern based on a known quantity.

Calm down dear

The Brexit party will not win a single seat and if anything will ensure a hung parliament and prevent a Tory majority so id be hoping they hang around if I were you

Brighton Sky Blue · Sep 28, 2019

Grendel said:
Calm down dear

The Brexit party will not win a single seat and if anything will ensure a hung parliament and prevent a Tory majority so id be hoping they hang around if I were you

That all depends on what Porky does next. If he goes against Farage though it will be an interesting duel between the 2 charlatans for the dumbass vote

Grendel · Sep 28, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
That all depends on what Porky does next. If he goes against Farage though it will be an interesting duel between the 2 charlatans for the dumbass vote

Not nice about your mates Gezza and undem Jo

Brighton Sky Blue · Sep 28, 2019

Grendel said:
Not nice about your mates Gezza and undem Jo

Let’s think of what will go in Porky’s manifesto

£15 billion bridge to Larne
Pork pies and shower heads to the Yanks
Restore all the police we lost over a decade
Restore the educational funding lost over a decade
Tax cuts for the rich

Farage’s manifesto

Untitled Document

Corbyn’s manifesto

Social democratic policies most people want

Swinson’s manifesto

Who knows and who cares

Of course it could change. If Corbyn turns the delegate proposals around seizure of property and assets into policy he has lost my vote and I suspect many others.

Grendel · Sep 28, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Let’s think of what will go in Porky’s manifesto

£15 billion bridge to Larne
Pork pies and shower heads to the Yanks
Restore all the police we lost over a decade
Restore the educational funding lost over a decade
Tax cuts for the rich

Farage’s manifesto

Untitled Document

Corbyn’s manifesto

Social democratic policies most people want

Swinson’s manifesto

Who knows and who cares

Of course it could change. If Corbyn turns the delegate proposals around seizure of property and assets into policy he has lost my vote and I suspect many others.

Oh dear

Brighton Sky Blue · Sep 28, 2019

Grendel said:
Oh dear

That’s the state of play with the parties where they are old dude.

Grendel · Sep 28, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
That’s the state of play with the parties where they are old dude.

Well clearly no it isn’t

I wasn’t aware most people wanted:

£31 billion of their pensions eradicated
£7 billion extra burden on schools
Higher inflation through union increased lower
£11 billion at least spent on nationalisation of businesses
Loss of stock market confidence

Must have missed that “survey” dude

Brighton Sky Blue · Sep 28, 2019

Grendel said:
Well clearly no it isn’t

I wasn’t aware most people wanted:

£31 billion of their pensions eradicated
£7 billion extra burden on schools
Higher inflation through union increased lower
£11 billion at least spent on nationalisation of businesses
Loss of stock market confidence

Must have missed that “survey” dude

They aren’t policy, however:

Eurotrack: Corbyn’s policies popular in Europe and UK | YouGov

More recent polling on Jezza himself however is poor. It has never been about the individual for me and I am not bothered if he gets replaced provided the 2017 manifesto is retained.

Grendel · Sep 28, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
They aren’t policy, however:

Eurotrack: Corbyn’s policies popular in Europe and UK | YouGov

More recent polling on Jezza himself however is poor. It has never been about the individual for me and I am not bothered if he gets replaced provided the 2017 manifesto is retained.

Oh dear. Where are the consequences of those little Christmas presents?

When they are pointed out such as £31 billion wiped of ordinary pensions will they say yes then?

Astute · Sep 28, 2019

shmmeee said:
If a second referendum results in Remain, that’s the will of the people. Anyone protesting on that point would look rather silly.

I don’t buy this “ooohhhh Brexiters will riot” bollock and even if I did you don’t negotiate with terrorists.

Corbyn did. Several times.

And the first point you made. It is OK to protest a result of a referendum. But you are silly if someone protests a result of a referendum if it is the result you personally want?

And there is one of my points. It should be the same whatever someone wants. If we had another referendum should we keep to the result? Or should we only keep to the result if it isn't leave without a deal?

Astute · Sep 28, 2019

shmmeee said:
Most leavers thought we’d stay in the single market. More so than Remainers. See that graph I posted earlier.

It’s like people think we can’t just go back and see what people thought in 2016. It’s just a few ideologues claiming 17.4m people think just like them with no evidence.

Nobody gave it a second thought. It was in or out. Shake it all about wasn't mentioned.

To me out meant out. That was why I wanted remain. The rest is just one of the excuses used by disgruntled people who didn't like the result. I didn't like the result. But I respect the result. I was on the losing side. I am used to it as I am a Labour voter.

Grendel · Sep 28, 2019

Astute said:
Nobody gave it a second thought. It was in or out. Shake it all about wasn't mentioned.

To me out meant out. That was why I wanted remain. The rest is just one of the excuses used by disgruntled people who didn't like the result. I didn't like the result. But I respect the result. I was on the losing side. I am used to it as I am a Labour voter.

The graph is meaningless hogwash anyway and he’s put incorrect spin on it

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Sep 28, 2019

Grendel said:
So I didn’t say it

Exactly the response I expected. For someone with apparently independent thought you're MO is exactly that of someone following the money agenda. Concede nothing, never admit you've made a mistake, never apologise. One of the first things one of the managers told me in the industry.

From those quotes we can ascertain the following facts.
1. You want a general election
2. You think a general election will be about Brexit.

That's more than clear enough to see your thinking. The Supreme Court have made rulings with less

Astute · Sep 28, 2019

shmmeee said:
The real question is why are you so scared of Remain being on the ballot? If Leave is still the will of the people, then it’ll win, right?

As for “they didn’t say how to leave” it’s a fact. One you and others refuse to address.

Best analogy is we were all in the pub and voted to leave. Where do we go? “Leave” isn’t an instruction. Any decent therapist will tel you how bad “away from” goals are in life. They don’t tell you where to go, they leave you in paralysis because “I don’t want this” opens you up to a multitude of things that “I do want this” doesn’t.

If it’s not a valid point, why have we spent three years arguing about what we want? And why don’t you want that to end?

To be clear in no way is it Leave voters fault the referendum was badly designed and they expressed their views the only way they could. But it doesn’t change the fact the referendum was badly designed and didn’t give us a clear instruction.

Strikes me that a lot of Brexiters know deep down that they don’t have the majority any more and want to blame someone else for their decision.

As for thick, well the evidence is that it wasn’t those who have good information processing skills that voted to Leave. But also it’s those with good information processing skills who aren’t being screwed in the modern economy.

I think most Brexiters had valid concerns, literally all my friends voted Leave so I’ve heard them in some depth. A couple voted to “get rid of blacks” one voted because he thinks Hilary steals babies for the globalists, but most are just pissed off with their lot in life and how the modern economy works. I get that, I just think voting to tank the economy and have the entire rule set rewritten by hard core capitalist Tories won’t give them any better.

Keep to the truth.

I am not scared of anything. I just don't think there should be another referendum. Us leaving will cause me problems. It is causing me plenty already. But another referendum will make things worse. It won't solve anything. I couldn't even see it resolving anything if the vote was leave again. People like yourself will just continue to protest. And you seem to think it would all go smoothly if brexit was stopped.

Grendel · Sep 28, 2019

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Exactly the response I expected. For someone with apparently independent thought you're MO is exactly that of someone following the money agenda. Concede nothing, never admit you've made a mistake, never apologise. One of the first things one of the managers told me in the industry.

From those quotes we can ascertain the following facts.
1. You want a general election
2. You think a general election will be about Brexit.

That's more than clear enough to see your thinking. The Supreme Court have made rulings with less

I said that every party will have a manifesto and within the manifesto will be a policy intent on Europe

Even if a referendum happens before it will be a skewed referendum

I am guessing 5 political parties will have leave the Eu regardless of any prior referendum

Oh and I think one very major party will fix the Supreme Court issue in their manifesto as well

Sick Boy · Sep 28, 2019

Astute said:
Keep to the truth.

I am not scared of anything. I just don't think there should be another referendum. Us leaving will cause me problems. It is causing me plenty already. But another referendum will make things worse. It won't solve anything. I couldn't even see it resolving anything if the vote was leave again. People like yourself will just continue to protest. And you seem to think it would all go smoothly if brexit was stopped.

I don’t think there’s anyone who expects it to go smoothly if Brexit were to be stopped. It’s going to impact the country for decades to come.

Brighton Sky Blue · Sep 28, 2019

Grendel said:
Oh dear. Where are the consequences of those little Christmas presents?

When they are pointed out such as £31 billion wiped of ordinary pensions will they say yes then?

The manifesto had full attempts at costings which is more than can be said for the Tory equivalent. Yet you have nothing to say about a £15 billion bridge because you wouldn’t use it. Bizarre. Porky has also inflicted further damage on the pound which only recovers when No Deal seems less likely. I can only think if you were American you’d be railing against people not being charged to see the doctor.

Top of the list would be revoking HS2-a hopelessly over budget vanity project. Right up Porky’s street

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Sep 28, 2019

Astute said:
Nobody gave it a second thought. It was in or out. Shake it all about wasn't mentioned.

To me out meant out. That was why I wanted remain. The rest is just one of the excuses used by disgruntled people who didn't like the result. I didn't like the result. But I respect the result. I was on the losing side. I am used to it as I am a Labour voter.

My opinion was the same - leave had to be assumed to be no deal. But literally no-one on the Leave campaign said that is what they were doing. Every single one, inc. current Mr. No Deal Farage were saying parts would be kept or we could pick and choose.

We may have been able to see beyond that but there are many how wouldn't and would've taken them at their word. There are still people going on about bendy bananas even though it was totally debunked over a decade ago.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (74 Viewers)

As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

Remain

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