The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (16 Viewers)

martcov · Nov 15, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Elon Musk: Brexit uncertainty made it ‘too risky’ to put Tesla plant in UK

well would you believe it? Germans very happy, although it remains to be seen if it is just nice words. I think he wants to build SUVs. Greens not to keen on that. The government will have to increase renewables if their CO2 aims are to be met as E cars need a lot of electricity. Greens want smaller E cars and more car sharing to get more efficient usage of cars. Some want cars to last longer to reduce need for raw materials. Aluminum needs high amounts of power to extract, but can be recycled efficiently.

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Nov 15, 2019

I have a 2005 Skoda Octavia 1.6 petrol..it has 110,000 on the clock. Last week it failed to start for the first time in 14 years. I've been researching electric cars and spoken to old school mechanics and those who specialise in electricals in newer cars. My question is this : Do I sell my old car for a new electric car, given the cost in raw materials, manufacture , transport etc , not to mention the lack of charging points. Or do I keep my old car , get it fixed and continue to get it serviced annually thus saving the planet in terms of resources.
My conclusion is that I should keep it until it is no longer economical to run. Yes, it pumps out more co2 than a newer model, but surely that's better than the cost to the environment in scrappage and having a whole car built, electric or otherwise.
Please pursuade me if you think I'm completely wrong. I'm open to any opinion.

SkyblueBazza · Nov 15, 2019

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
If products are unsold or sold for less than budgeted margin under market economics the product must be poor/unwanted and it creates a gap in the market to be filled by a better competitor. That company will grow to fill the gap and will therefore replace the employment lost at the original company. That is how it is supposed to work (even though it doesn't) - constant readjustment leading to better quality or more cheaply produced goods and services and any issues the transitions bring about are temporary and short-term.

The thing about the more money they have the more they spend is that you need to look at it proportionally as a percentage of income rather than in actual amounts. In those terms poorer people spend far more of of their available money than more wealthy people due to necessity. Rich people sit on a far greater percentage of their wealth, hence why richer people's wealth increases and poorer people's stagnates.

As we've heard from several people on here the only way a lot of younger people are getting onto the property ladder is by NOT spending and being frugal. So this is surely hurting the economy because it means less jobs available? Meanwhile those that are profligate are actually a boon to the economy because they create more jobs due to their more varied and regular purchasing.

To an extent yes. However, if ypu are sharp enpugh you increase ypur prices a bit whilst fill g the gap of businesses that fold. It is basic opportunism

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Sick Boy · Nov 16, 2019

Alan Dugdales Moustache said:
I have a 2005 Skoda Octavia 1.6 petrol..it has 110,000 on the clock. Last week it failed to start for the first time in 14 years. I've been researching electric cars and spoken to old school mechanics and those who specialise in electricals in newer cars. My question is this : Do I sell my old car for a new electric car, given the cost in raw materials, manufacture , transport etc , not to mention the lack of charging points. Or do I keep my old car , get it fixed and continue to get it serviced annually thus saving the planet in terms of resources.
My conclusion is that I should keep it until it is no longer economical to run. Yes, it pumps out more co2 than a newer model, but surely that's better than the cost to the environment in scrappage and having a whole car built, electric or otherwise.
Please pursuade me if you think I'm completely wrong. I'm open to any opinion.

Something that needs more awareness and investment in the UK is gas powered cars, better for environment and they pay for themselves in the long run.

I bought a ‘99 Audi A3 last month with LPG fitted and it does 350-400km for €20 - it’s a no brainer considering how much you save in fuel costs.

I also have an even older Fiat Uno that’s gas powered and does similar mileage for €8.

Astute · Nov 16, 2019

Alan Dugdales Moustache said:
I have a 2005 Skoda Octavia 1.6 petrol..it has 110,000 on the clock. Last week it failed to start for the first time in 14 years. I've been researching electric cars and spoken to old school mechanics and those who specialise in electricals in newer cars. My question is this : Do I sell my old car for a new electric car, given the cost in raw materials, manufacture , transport etc , not to mention the lack of charging points. Or do I keep my old car , get it fixed and continue to get it serviced annually thus saving the planet in terms of resources.
My conclusion is that I should keep it until it is no longer economical to run. Yes, it pumps out more co2 than a newer model, but surely that's better than the cost to the environment in scrappage and having a whole car built, electric or otherwise.
Please pursuade me if you think I'm completely wrong. I'm open to any opinion.

My old runner is now 11 years old. Use it as my long journey car. Volvo V70 D5. Done over 11,000 miles in the last 6 months. Has never failed an MOT. Only got 142,000 miles. Cambelt every 100,000 miles and easy to do. Service every 18,000 miles. If kept to the car should be able to join their club of cars that have covered over 300,000 miles.

Most cars won't cover anywhere near this. There is a lot of polution to build a car. Much more than the difference of pollution created between a new car and older car.

shmmeee · Nov 16, 2019

Astute said:
My old runner is now 11 years old. Use it as my long journey car. Volvo V70 D5. Done over 11,000 miles in the last 6 months. Has never failed an MOT. Only got 142,000 miles. Cambelt every 100,000 miles and easy to do. Service every 18,000 miles. If kept to the car should be able to join their club of cars that have covered over 300,000 miles.

Most cars won't cover anywhere near this. There is a lot of polution to build a car. Much more than the difference of pollution created between a new car and older car.

Buying A New Car Is Greener Than Driving An Old One...Really

Astute · Nov 16, 2019

shmmeee said:
Buying A New Car Is Greener Than Driving An Old One...Really

A 2014 article on a 20 year old car to a new one? So a 1994 car........

Engines from 2008 are much better than that. And my car with a large engine only costs £240 a year to tax so isn't very poluting to what many are.

How about finding a more recent one?

shmmeee · Nov 16, 2019

Astute said:
A 2014 article on a 20 year old car to a new one? So a 1994 car........

Engines from 2008 are much better than that. And my car with a large engine only costs £240 a year to tax so isn't very poluting to what many are.

How about finding a more recent one?

I’m finding it hard TBH. Gut says you’re wrong about the emissions, read something about 80-90% of impact is from driving emissions and obviously mobile emissions are worse than static like production because less measures available to capture them.

But can’t find anything newer than that so you may be right. As I say it feels wrong on a gut level.

Astute · Nov 16, 2019

shmmeee said:
I’m finding it hard TBH. Gut says you’re wrong about the emissions, read something about 80-90% of impact is from driving emissions and obviously mobile emissions are worse than static like production because less measures available to capture them.

But can’t find anything newer than that so you may be right. As I say it feels wrong on a gut level.

When cars were high polluting it was better to replace them. But the introduction of the DPF on diesels made a massive difference.

Yes they still pollute. But look at the energy on putting a car together. And making batteries for electric vehicles can be catastrophic in some countries. Then they need clean electric. Otherwise they still pollute.

Are EV battery plants creating more pollution than EVs eliminate?

shmmeee · Nov 16, 2019

Astute said:
When cars were high polluting it was better to replace them. But the introduction of the DPF on diesels made a massive difference.

Yes they still pollute. But look at the energy on putting a car together. And making batteries for electric vehicles can be catastrophic in some countries. Then they need clean electric. Otherwise they still pollute.

Are EV battery plants creating more pollution than EVs eliminate?

That research is a bit sus. It depends on fossil fuels powering the plant for a start.

For me the argument for going electric is we need mass market adoption for a host of reasons to drive down cost and improve usability. My next car will be fully electric (assuming my current one last for a couple for years).

Astute · Nov 16, 2019

shmmeee said:
That research is a bit sus. It depends on fossil fuels powering the plant for a start.

For me the argument for going electric is we need mass market adoption for a host of reasons to drive down cost and improve usability. My next car will be fully electric (assuming my current one last for a couple for years).

But did you read about the battery part?

Electric car batteries damaging to environment: Amnesty International

This one is a long read but explains it very well

Will Your Electric Car Save the World or Wreck It?

SkyBlueDom26 · Nov 18, 2019

Breakup of UK a price worth paying for Brexit, say Leave voters in poll

shmmeee · Nov 18, 2019

Astute said:
But did you read about the battery part?

Electric car batteries damaging to environment: Amnesty International

This one is a long read but explains it very well

Will Your Electric Car Save the World or Wreck It?

Yeah I’ve read the arguments before re child Labour and the like, I think they miss the point. Same as the “oh but you use fossil fuels to generate electricity”. All seems a little grasping at straws to me. Working conditions and recycling methods can be improved and aren’t a reason not to switch to a clearly better technology for a host of reasons. To be honest a lot of these articles and research read like puff pieces for ICE makers and related industries. I’ve not read many neutral studies that don’t conclude electric is the future even if it’s not perfect in every way. ICE is just an outdated technology and if someone suggested it today we’d laugh them out of the room IMO.

Astute · Nov 18, 2019

shmmeee said:
Yeah I’ve read the arguments before re child Labour and the like, I think they miss the point. Same as the “oh but you use fossil fuels to generate electricity”. All seems a little grasping at straws to me. Working conditions and recycling methods can be improved and aren’t a reason not to switch to a clearly better technology for a host of reasons. To be honest a lot of these articles and research read like puff pieces for ICE makers and related industries. I’ve not read many neutral studies that don’t conclude electric is the future even if it’s not perfect in every way. ICE is just an outdated technology and if someone suggested it today we’d laugh them out of the room IMO.

Yes it looks like the way forward. But if you look at the full impact you will see that the batteries are a major problem that they like to try and hide. It isn't just the child labour. A and we were talking about running an older car that isn't highly polluting against the pollution caused by building an electric car and batteries. And the big problem ahead is what to do with the used batteries. Less than 2% can currently be recycled. Suddenly we have millions of these batteries to sort out.

The spiralling environmental cost of our lithium battery addiction | WIRED UK

shmmeee · Nov 18, 2019

Astute said:
Yes it looks like the way forward. But if you look at the full impact you will see that the batteries are a major problem that they like to try and hide. It isn't just the child labour. A and we were talking about running an older car that isn't highly polluting against the pollution caused by building an electric car and batteries. And the big problem ahead is what to do with the used batteries. Less than 2% can currently be recycled. Suddenly we have millions of these batteries to sort out.

The spiralling environmental cost of our lithium battery addiction | WIRED UK

And as we humans do, when it becomes as big an issue as carbon emissions we’ll tackle it.

First things first. We need to tackle decarbonising transport. Everything else can wait. Battery tech and manufacturing methods will improve.

Astute · Nov 18, 2019

shmmeee said:
And as we humans do, when it becomes as big an issue as carbon emissions we’ll tackle it.

First things first. We need to tackle decarbonising transport. Everything else can wait. Battery tech and manufacturing methods will improve.

So what you are saying is we should make the cars better and concentrate on the batteries when this is done.

But what about the millions of batteries (Not small either) that can't be recycled as they degenerate over time? Put the effort into the power and the rest will be OK. But no. It is all about the cars and not the problems being created in 10 years time.

ccfc92 · Nov 18, 2019

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Problems I've had with electric cars are that
1. the metals needed for the batteries etc can require some very environmentally unfriendly extraction/refining processes
2. we change the way we generate electricity cos even though the emissions aren't coming out the arse of the car it's still being generated somewhere. This transition is slowly happening though.

I think they will take over eventually as the norm but they need to become more user friendly in terms of range and ease/speed of refueling without massively reducing the life of the battery. They will get there eventually.

I thought hydrogen fuel cells may have taken over as a stop gap a few years ago as it'd work in a similar way to current cars in terms of refueling and could use the existing petrol station network but the idea seemed to fall completely by the wayside.

Hydrogen is the way forward, but it's hard to store I believe.

Plus enough people die crashing with a tank of petrol, never mind a hydrogen bomb in their car!

Ian1779 · Nov 18, 2019

SkyBlueDom26 said:
Breakup of UK a price worth paying for Brexit, say Leave voters in poll

Nothing says let’s return to the days of the British Empire like ‘let’s break up the Empire’

shmmeee · Nov 18, 2019

Astute said:
So what you are saying is we should make the cars better and concentrate on the batteries when this is done.

But what about the millions of batteries (Not small either) that can't be recycled as they degenerate over time? Put the effort into the power and the rest will be OK. But no. It is all about the cars and not the problems being created in 10 years time.

We’ll find a use or shoot them into space or whatever. That’s tomorrow’s problem.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Nov 18, 2019

ccfc92 said:
Hydrogen is the way forward, but it's hard to store I believe.

Plus enough people die crashing with a tank of petrol, never mind a hydrogen bomb in their car!

I've heard if was hard to store as it tends to leak through even the smallest holes and it's also difficult to isolate. There's tons of it about but it likes to 'stick' to other stuff and those chemical bonds are tricky/expensive to break (according to a chemical engineer I know anyway - chemistry is not my strong suit!)

That was my opinion regarding the danger too, but supposedly they've made the tanks safe and they'd done stuff like fired tracer bullets into the tanks and crashed cars into each other etc without explosions. However, a few tests isn't the same as millions of people driving around in them or having the fuel transported.

skybluetony176 · Nov 18, 2019

ccfc92 said:
Hydrogen is the way forward, but it's hard to store I believe.

Plus enough people die crashing with a tank of petrol, never mind a hydrogen bomb in their car!

I was reading something on hydrogen fuel cells not that long ago and I think the safe storage issues have largely been overcome and the main issue now is the physical size of the hardware and it not fitting into the available space of a functional car. There are a few companies experimenting with hydrogen trains though with a view put them into production in the not so distant future.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Nov 18, 2019

Astute said:
So what you are saying is we should make the cars better and concentrate on the batteries when this is done.

But what about the millions of batteries (Not small either) that can't be recycled as they degenerate over time? Put the effort into the power and the rest will be OK. But no. It is all about the cars and not the problems being created in 10 years time.

I agree with you on the prevention rather than cure - if we know this is going to be a problem in the future surely it's best to just stop that problem now before it becomes one?

However, I'm also of the opinion that we will work on and find ways to fix these problems over time and if we can store these safely until we do then it is a potential goldmine of tomorrow.

I'm probably a bit of a mad futurist but I reckon in centuries to come there will actually be quite a bit of value in old landfill areas because they'll be full of materials and elements that have become scarce. We'll be digging up our own rubbish to recycle it.

Astute · Nov 18, 2019

shmmeee said:
We’ll find a use or shoot them into space or whatever. That’s tomorrow’s problem.

A lot of the problems we have are yesterday's problems we are left with today. Like oil, petrol,diesel, nuclear waste and coal fired electricity. And look at the problems it is causing today.

Astute · Nov 18, 2019

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
I agree with you on the prevention rather than cure - if we know this is going to be a problem in the future surely it's best to just stop that problem now before it becomes one?

However, I'm also of the opinion that we will work on and find ways to fix these problems over time and if we can store these safely until we do then it is a potential goldmine of tomorrow.

I'm probably a bit of a mad futurist but I reckon in centuries to come there will actually be quite a bit of value in old landfill areas because they'll be full of materials and elements that have become scarce. We'll be digging up our own rubbish to recycle it.

I agree. But there is now millions of electronic vehicles on the road. They have batteries. In the future they should be able to work out the recycling. But as we know there will be no rush until made law.

SkyblueBazza · Nov 18, 2019

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
I've heard if was hard to store as it tends to leak through even the smallest holes and it's also difficult to isolate. There's tons of it about but it likes to 'stick' to other stuff and those chemical bonds are tricky/expensive to break (according to a chemical engineer I know anyway - chemistry is not my strong suit!)

That was my opinion regarding the danger too, but supposedly they've made the tanks safe and they'd done stuff like fired tracer bullets into the tanks and crashed cars into each other etc without explosions. However, a few tests isn't the same as millions of people driving around in them or having the fuel transported.

Yeah...something tells me that the water vapour emitted will fill our skies...& warm the atmosphere...& we will be crashing said hydrogen powered vehicles as we will eventually be in a permanent heavy mist.
Maybe they will develop something(s) to get around it all

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shmmeee · Nov 18, 2019

Astute said:
A lot of the problems we have are yesterday's problems we are left with today. Like oil, petrol,diesel, nuclear waste and coal fired electricity. And look at the problems it is causing today.

Yep because we aren’t half as smart as we think we are. We can’t predict most externalities. But we are smart enough to innovate our way out of issues when they become serious enough to throw resources at IMO.

Constantly waiting around for the perfect answer (and hydrogen is far from perfect) will mean nothing gets done.

Astute · Nov 19, 2019

shmmeee said:
Yep because we aren’t half as smart as we think we are. We can’t predict most externalities. But we are smart enough to innovate our way out of issues when they become serious enough to throw resources at IMO.

Constantly waiting around for the perfect answer (and hydrogen is far from perfect) will mean nothing gets done.

So we should push ahead with something we know is a major problem without putting more effort into finding a way of it not being a major problem for our children?

Sounds just like where you are happy for future generations to be made hundreds of billions in debt because it might be affordable.

We are where we are because of a lack of knowledge on what pollution would harm the most. The first lot of dead batteries will be a reality soon. But we will have the reality of millions each year soon and not a clue what to do with them.

SkyblueBazza · Nov 19, 2019

shmmeee said:
Yep because we aren’t half as smart as we think we are. We can’t predict most externalities. But we are smart enough to innovate our way out of issues when they become serious enough to throw resources at IMO.

Constantly waiting around for the perfect answer (and hydrogen is far from perfect) will mean nothing gets done.

Rather startling...given many of ypur arguments & likes regarding Brexit predictions

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Grendel · Nov 19, 2019

shmmeee said:
Yep because we aren’t half as smart as we think we are.

well you certainly aren’t

shmmeee · Nov 19, 2019

Astute said:
So we should push ahead with something we know is a major problem without putting more effort into finding a way of it not being a major problem for our children?

Sounds just like where you are happy for future generations to be made hundreds of billions in debt because it might be affordable.

We are where we are because of a lack of knowledge on what pollution would harm the most. The first lot of dead batteries will be a reality soon. But we will have the reality of millions each year soon and not a clue what to do with them.

Inaction is also action. We know that inaction has major problems, hydrogen has major problems and electric has major problems but is ready now and those problems aren’t as immediate.

When we have that reality there will be an economic incentive to deal with it, and we will. The beauty of capitalism.

shmmeee · Nov 19, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
Rather startling...given many of ypur arguments & likes regarding Brexit predictions

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Economics is reasonably well developed, unlike electric car battery recycling. We have a pressing need to “leave” internal combustion engines ASAP that makes it less important to judge risk.

Just imagining you in a burning house:

“Oh, interesting that you want to leave right away Sharon, when you spent weeks planning our fortnight in Florida and poo pooed my idea of just catching the first plane out of BHX”

SkyblueBazza · Nov 19, 2019

shmmeee said:
Economics is reasonably well developed, unlike electric car battery recycling. We have a pressing need to “leave” internal combustion engines ASAP that makes it less important to judge risk.

Just imagining you in a burning house:

“Oh, interesting that you want to leave right away Sharon, when you spent weeks planning our fortnight in Florida and poo pooed my idea of just catching the first plane out of BHX”

Who the fuck is Sharon? As far as examples go that is probably your worst.

Car battery to power car is a pretty specific thing where changing outcomes can be analysed & alternative better outcomes sought. Though the impact of batteries on the environment is recognised.

Economics is a constantly changing scenario with more influences than it possible to put a number on.

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shmmeee · Nov 19, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
Who the fuck is Sharon? As far as examples go that is probably your worst.

Car battery to power car is a pretty specific thing where changing outcomes can be analysed & alternative better outcomes sought. Though the impact of batteries on the environment is recognised.

Economics is a constantly changing scenario with more influences than it possible to put a number on.

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Fair. The point you avoided about the need for change altering the level of planning you can afford to do still stands.

Sharon if my imagined wife for you. Sharon and Bazza seemed to fit.

shmmeee · Nov 19, 2019

I see Arron Banks’ Twitter DMs have been leaked. Coming out in dribs and drabs but already seen cash for journalists, Raab apparently confirming a pact with the Tories, and £1000 for lunch with Priti Patel. Andy Wigmore scrabbling around threatening legal action for anyone who touches them so sounds like they aren’t denying them.

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 19, 2019

shmmeee said:
£1000 for lunch with Priti Patel.

Is that how much to avoid having lunch with her?

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (16 Viewers)

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