The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (37 Viewers)

SkyblueBazza · Jul 18, 2017

martcov said:
Legal is open to interpretation. In accordance with the Geneva convention? The UNO? And or EU law? British law?

It will never be what I think you want. We trade with the world ( or did via the EU ) and that requires sticking to various laws if we want to trade. The laws probably won't fit in with your world view.

Compromises will have to be made and a large percentage of the population don't share your ( what I assume to be ) views. Even in Germany where you have the AfD screaming send them home, you have other people demonstrating against sending people back to Afghanistan etc..

Yes it's a dilemma - but we vote better brains than I to consider all the options, influences (you lost me with The UNO mind, is that enforcible outside the US?) & potential impacts.

My main concern is that what we in the UK have a habit of doing is building lots of accommodation for people without making sure the existing local infrastructure can cope...that generally leads to lower the overall quality of life rather quickly. And unless we get a proper grip on things our towns and cities could quickly become swamped with new people many without work...someone will have to pay for their handouts...& it will not be the corporate monsters that welcome such influxes as an opportunity to drive down wages & make MORE money still to spirit away overseas.

True refugees, absolutely agree we should take our fair share. Economic migrants is where care is particularly needed.

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Liquid Gold · Jul 18, 2017

SkyblueBazza said:
we vote better brains than I to consider all the options

Exactly why we shouldn't be messing around with referendums.

Sick Boy · Jul 19, 2017

SkyblueBazza said:
Yes it's a dilemma - but we vote better brains than I to consider all the options, influences (you lost me with The UNO mind, is that enforcible outside the US?) & potential impacts.

My main concern is that what we in the UK have a habit of doing is building lots of accommodation for people without making sure the existing local infrastructure can cope...that generally leads to lower the overall quality of life rather quickly. And unless we get a proper grip on things our towns and cities could quickly become swamped with new people many without work...someone will have to pay for their handouts...& it will not be the corporate monsters that welcome such influxes as an opportunity to drive down wages & make MORE money still to spirit away overseas.

True refugees, absolutely agree we should take our fair share. Economic migrants is where care is particularly needed.

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Can you tell us which accommodation you're referring to? Presumably you are now not talking about migrants from the EU?

Sick Boy · Jul 19, 2017

Just to let you know that I got a personal reply from an email that I sent to Guy Verhofstadt, albeit it 6 months later!

I was surprising as I thought all the EU cared about was money?

SkyblueBazza · Jul 19, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Can you tell us which accommodation you're referring to? Presumably you are now not talking about migrants from the EU?

Specifically - I am referring to a great many new developments that have been built or are planned. They are simply housing developments that just put extra strain on the system(s). As more people from anywhere, for any reason, come into to the country that is also putting extra strain on infrastructure.

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SkyblueBazza · Jul 19, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Just to let you know that I got a personal reply from an email that I sent to Guy Verhofstadt, albeit it 6 months later!

I was surprising as I thought all the EU cared about was money?

Yes...he's probably been busy çonsidering the financial impact of Brexit on his finances & moving things around. That's why it took 6 months to reply lol

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martcov · Jul 19, 2017

SkyblueBazza said:
Yes...he's probably been busy çonsidering the financial impact of Brexit on his finances & moving things around. That's why it took 6 months to reply lol

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Lucky he isn't waiting for a reply from the British government as to the effects of Brexit and what Brexit actually means - apart from Brexit. That could take a century or two longer.

Sick Boy · Jul 19, 2017

SkyblueBazza said:
Specifically - I am referring to a great many new developments that have been built or are planned. They are simply housing developments that just put extra strain on the system(s). As more people from anywhere, for any reason, come into to the country that is also putting extra strain on infrastructure.

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Like where? Blame the the government's austerity, not those working here and generating additional tax revenue. Do you also have issues with people living longer and not freeing up housing?

skybluedan · Jul 19, 2017

SkyblueBazza · Jul 19, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Like where? Blame the the government's austerity, not those working here and generating additional tax revenue. Do you also have issues with people living longer and not freeing up housing?

Like where? Just consider for yourself or talk to someone who 10yrs ago took 1/4hr to travel to thier local supermarket & 1/2hr in there shopping...& because of new developments now spends 1/2hr to get there & back & 3/4-1hr to shop with added queues as just 1 example. The roads etc should be improved before or at the same time - not 10yrs later still!
And the austerity argument doesn't wash because this has happened over generations. The issue with just opening up these shores to anyone that takes a fancy to it is that the speed of the process has increased massively. And it's a viscious circle.

As for ederly or whatever ridiculous arguments you want to throw in...the answers are probably not going to be what you would like or expect.

Certainly I don't think people should own 2nd or 3rd homes which lay empty for more than 4 months of the year - that would ease housing problems a little but is only a drop in the ocean. BUT until we work out a proper solution & way forward the flow should be stemmed.

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Sick Boy · Jul 19, 2017

SkyblueBazza said:
Like where? Just consider for yourself or talk to someone who 10yrs ago took 1/4hr to travel to thier local supermarket & 1/2hr in there shopping...& because of new developments now spends 1/2hr to get there & back & 3/4-1hr to shop with added queues as just 1 example. The roads etc should be improved before or at the same time - not 10yrs later still!
And the austerity argument doesn't wash because this has happened over generations. The issue with just opening up these shores to anyone that takes a fancy to it is that the speed of the process has increased massively. And it's a viscious circle.

As for ederly or whatever ridiculous arguments you want to throw in...the answers are probably not going to be what you would like or expect.

Certainly I don't think people should own 2nd or 3rd homes which lay empty for more than 4 months of the year - that would ease housing problems a little but is only a drop in the ocean. BUT until we work out a proper solution & way forward the flow should be stemmed.

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Are you going to let us know where all of these new developments are or not?

The issue of people living longer should certainly not be dismissed, and it's hardly ridiculous. It's a fact that people are living longer.

At some point the country will need to take an look at itself and those in charge rather than blaming genrations of economic migrants coming to the country to work.

Scapegoating migrants for all of the country's woes is an utter disgrace. The powers that be really have played a blinder.

martcov · Jul 19, 2017

SkyblueBazza said:
As for ederly or whatever ridiculous arguments you want to throw in...the answers are probably not going to be what you would like or expect.

What, similar answers to the unpalatable solutions you gave as examples for dealing with economic refugees?

SkyblueBazza · Jul 20, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Are you going to let us know where all of these new developments are or not?

The issue of people living longer should certainly not be dismissed, and it's hardly ridiculous. It's a fact that people are living longer.

At some point the country will need to take an look at itself and those in charge rather than blaming genrations of economic migrants coming to the country to work.

Scapegoating migrants for all of the country's woes is an utter disgrace. The powers that be really have played a blinder.

It is a fact people live longer...but that is not the issue unless you open the floodgates to more & more people from abroad entering the country for fair or foul means...YOU seem to have an issue with people aging not me!

These developments are everywhere...look for planning permissions where you live! For me it is Welborne - an already over congested road network (when flowing a 10mile trip along M27 is 7mins...10yrs ago peak time it was 8 mins - now it is at least 15mins. In fact it often takes me 25mins to do 1.6miles to actually get to the M27! All because of over development without developing infrastructure. Appt with a GP...6weeks!)

You can try to pick holes all you like but the simple fact is that if you allow people to waltz into the country whenever you or they like - it is only going to add to the problem. Now if you happen to be unemployed you can book a GP appt more or less whenever convenient...or maybe until you reach 60 or so - you don't really need much off your GP? Add to that peak time traffic isn't an issue because you stay in bad perhaps? I don't know YOUR circumstance...but I know mine & your best efforts are not getting anywhere close to convincing that my concerns are wrong.

The fact is there isn't enough housing nor infrastructure to deal with the people we have now without letting anybody that wants to enter the country to enter & pro-create the way they have over the last 30-40yrs especially. It cannot continue - there is a finite space to live & move about in. I am not scapegoating as you call it...I am calling it as I experience it.

If you want to erode your quality of life...go ahead...but mine has been eroded enough already thank-you.

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SkyblueBazza · Jul 20, 2017

martcov said:
What, similar answers to the unpalatable solutions you gave as examples for dealing with economic refugees?

I have no issue with elderly people & seek no 'solution' to them (perhaps you do?) so don't try to twist it that might

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martcov · Jul 20, 2017

SkyblueBazza said:
It is a fact people live longer...but that is not the issue unless you open the floodgates to more & more people from abroad entering the country for fair or foul means...YOU seem to have an issue with people aging not me!

These developments are everywhere...look for planning permissions where you live! For me it is Welborne - an already over congested road network (when flowing a 10mile trip along M27 is 7mins...10yrs ago peak time it was 8 mins - now it is at least 15mins. In fact it often takes me 25mins to do 1.6miles to actually get to the M27! All because of over development without developing infrastructure. Appt with a GP...6weeks!)

You can try to pick holes all you like but the simple fact is that if you allow people to waltz into the country whenever you or they like - it is only going to add to the problem. Now if you happen to be unemployed you can book a GP appt more or less whenever convenient...or maybe until you reach 60 or so - you don't really need much off your GP? Add to that peak time traffic isn't an issue because you stay in bad perhaps? I don't know YOUR circumstance...but I know mine & your best efforts are not getting anywhere close to convincing that my concerns are wrong.

The fact is there isn't enough housing nor infrastructure to deal with the people we have now without letting anybody that wants to enter the country to enter & pro-create the way they have over the last 30-40yrs especially. It cannot continue - there is a finite space to live & move about in. I am not scapegoating as you call it...I am calling it as I experience it.

If you want to erode your quality of life...go ahead...but mine has been eroded enough already thank-you.

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Mobility is the major factor behind our wealth. And, the richer we become, the more we consume. We also own more cars per capita than ever before. We order more parcels online as opposed to going shopping in a nearby town than ever before - adds to the congestion. We have lived 7 or 8 years through an austerity program which hasn't allowed enough road building.

I doubt whether poorer immigrants are the main or only reason for your travel problems.

I also don't agree that anyone can walz into the country when they want. That is why you had the situation at Calais and may have at Dover if the French move the border controls back from Calais.

The figure of EU nationals living in Britain is 3 million. The figure of British living in the EU is quoted as between 1 and 1,5 million ( many of them retirees putting a potential burden on e.g. Spanish health services - and relieving the UK health services). So, the net figure is 1,5 to 2 million of a population of 65 million.

I don't see you mentioning the net 63,5 million as being part of the problem. What is your solution for the 63,5 million who are likely to live longer than their predecessors?

Sick Boy · Jul 20, 2017

SkyblueBazza said:
It is a fact people live longer...but that is not the issue unless you open the floodgates to more & more people from abroad entering the country for fair or foul means...YOU seem to have an issue with people aging not me!

These developments are everywhere...look for planning permissions where you live! For me it is Welborne - an already over congested road network (when flowing a 10mile trip along M27 is 7mins...10yrs ago peak time it was 8 mins - now it is at least 15mins. In fact it often takes me 25mins to do 1.6miles to actually get to the M27! All because of over development without developing infrastructure. Appt with a GP...6weeks!)

You can try to pick holes all you like but the simple fact is that if you allow people to waltz into the country whenever you or they like - it is only going to add to the problem. Now if you happen to be unemployed you can book a GP appt more or less whenever convenient...or maybe until you reach 60 or so - you don't really need much off your GP? Add to that peak time traffic isn't an issue because you stay in bad perhaps? I don't know YOUR circumstance...but I know mine & your best efforts are not getting anywhere close to convincing that my concerns are wrong.

The fact is there isn't enough housing nor infrastructure to deal with the people we have now without letting anybody that wants to enter the country to enter & pro-create the way they have over the last 30-40yrs especially. It cannot continue - there is a finite space to live & move about in. I am not scapegoating as you call it...I am calling it as I experience it.

If you want to erode your quality of life...go ahead...but mine has been eroded enough already thank-you.

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I live in a city where 35% of the population are foreign born; I have a doctor's surgery at the end of the road where if I so wish I can get a doctor's appointment the same day. Strangely enough, over the last 10 years there has not been this massive increase in traffic, despite it being one of the most popular cities to live in the UK.

Still, what do I know? My parents are immigrants as is my partner, so clearly we are part of the problem in your eyes.

SkyblueBazza · Jul 20, 2017

martcov said:
Mobility is the major factor behind our wealth. And, the richer we become, the more we consume. We also own more cars per capita than ever before. We order more parcels online as opposed to going shopping in a nearby town than ever before - adds to the congestion. We have lived 7 or 8 years through an austerity program which hasn't allowed enough road building.

I doubt whether poorer immigrants are the main or only reason for your travel problems.

I also don't agree that anyone can walz into the country when they want. That is why you had the situation at Calais and may have at Dover if the French move the border controls back from Calais.

The figure of EU nationals living in Britain is 3 million. The figure of British living in the EU is quoted as between 1 and 1,5 million ( many of them retirees putting a potential burden on e.g. Spanish health services - and relieving the UK health services). So, the net figure is 1,5 to 2 million of a population of 65 million.

I don't see you mentioning the net 63,5 million as being part of the problem. What is your solution for the 63,5 million who are likely to live longer than their predecessors?

Strayed way off the point now. We were talking about the awful conditions people live in at Calais. I say by choosing to migrate here and persisting on trying to sneak into the country, where they WILL increase more strain on our infrastructure, they are choosing to live in those awful conditions. They are illegals trying to mostly work the system to seek asylum or some other status where they enter the system of official numbers often quoted.

You can throw such numbers about all you like...but even the officials that produce them went on record saying they don't really know how many have entered the country legally or otherwise paricularly during the Blair years.

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SkyblueBazza · Jul 20, 2017

Sick Boy said:
I live in a city where 35% of the population are foreign born; I have a doctor's surgery at the end of the road where if I so wish I can get a doctor's appointment the same day. Strangely enough, over the last 10 years there has not been this massive increase in traffic, despite it being one of the most popular cities to live in the UK.

Still, what do I know? My parents are immigrants as is my partner, so clearly we are part of the problem in your eyes.

If you or they entered the country illegally then yes you &/or they are because you can't plan for the strain illegal entry puts on the system.

It isn't like buying some kind of insurance to replace broken items in the home...its like suddenly having a need for a great many more homes than you thought. Like buying a two bedroom house if that is all you can afford. Imagine the shock & strain it creates when you start a family & have sextuplets.

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Deleted member 5849 · Jul 20, 2017

SkyblueBazza said:
If you or they entered the country illegally then yes you &/or they are because you can't plan for the strain illegal entry puts on the system.

It isn't like buying some kind of insurance to replace broken items in the home...its like suddenly having a need for a great many more homes than you thought. Like buying a two bedroom house if that is all you can afford. Imagine the shock & strain it creates when you start a family & have sextuplets.

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The number of people who are here illegally is negligible in the grand scheme of things. They're to be distinguished from economic migrants, asylum seekers and so on.

Plus, prople here illegally cannot claim benefits or take advantage of any health system, so put no strain on the system in that way bar the very remote emergencies... at which point they'd be deported when possible, anyway.

Sick Boy · Jul 20, 2017

SkyblueBazza said:
If you or they entered the country illegally then yes you &/or they are because you can't plan for the strain illegal entry puts on the system.

It isn't like buying some kind of insurance to replace broken items in the home...its like suddenly having a need for a great many more homes than you thought. Like buying a two bedroom house if that is all you can afford. Imagine the shock & strain it creates when you start a family & have sextuplets.

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"You can try to pick holes all you like but the simple fact is that if you allow people to waltz into the country whenever you or they like - it is only going to add to the problem."

Not sure why you have suddenly changed to discussing illegal migration now, but oh well.

Terry Gibson's perm · Jul 20, 2017

Where I live in Nuneaton the new developments are crazy one near to me they applied to build 200 odd houses got it passed and then said they will build 400 plus but it's not all down to immigration it's also people wanting to live alone years ago people lived at home and got married and bought a house now they leave home and live alone until meeting a partner. The builders said they would build a new school but the council said no need as they didn't want any long term costs while forgetting that thousands of new houses brings in millions in council tax for little extra cost.

It may not be popular but I would stop people owning lots of houses to rent out and people can survive without a weekend property.

SkyblueBazza · Jul 20, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
The number of people who are here illegally is negligible in the grand scheme of things. They're to be distinguished from economic migrants, asylum seekers and so on.

Plus, prople here illegally cannot claim benefits or take advantage of any health system, so put no strain on the system in that way bar the very remote emergencies... at which point they'd be deported when possible, anyway.

So once again...if the authorities have already said they dont know how many - who are YOU to say the number is negligible?
They can gain charity to survive, they can commit crimes to survive, they can get jobs in the black economy, they can ALWAYS get access to our health system...hipocrates' oath & the simple ethics of our system ensure that.

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SkyblueBazza · Jul 20, 2017

Sick Boy said:
"You can try to pick holes all you like but the simple fact is that if you allow people to waltz into the country whenever you or they like - it is only going to add to the problem."

Not sure why you have suddenly changed to discussing illegal migration now, but oh well.

Because the original point was concerning the awful living conditions in Calais...they are illegals trying to gain access to Britain.

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Grendel · Jul 20, 2017

Sick Boy said:
I live in a city where 35% of the population are foreign born; I have a doctor's surgery at the end of the road where if I so wish I can get a doctor's appointment the same day. Strangely enough, over the last 10 years there has not been this massive increase in traffic, despite it being one of the most popular cities to live in the UK.

Still, what do I know? My parents are immigrants as is my partner, so clearly we are part of the problem in your eyes.

Brighton has 15% foreign population - only 5% from the EU

Liquid Gold · Jul 20, 2017

Sick Boy said:
I live in a city where 35% of the population are foreign born; I have a doctor's surgery at the end of the road where if I so wish I can get a doctor's appointment the same day. Strangely enough, over the last 10 years there has not been this massive increase in traffic, despite it being one of the most popular cities to live in the UK.

Still, what do I know? My parents are immigrants as is my partner, so clearly we are part of the problem in your eyes.

It amazes me how so many people who have so little interaction with migrant communities see them as a problem yet those of us that live in heavily migrant populated areas have no problem at all.

Liquid Gold · Jul 20, 2017

Terry Gibson's perm said:
Where I live in Nuneaton the new developments are crazy one near to me they applied to build 200 odd houses got it passed and then said they will build 400 plus but it's not all down to immigration it's also people wanting to live alone years ago people lived at home and got married and bought a house now they leave home and live alone until meeting a partner. The builders said they would build a new school but the council said no need as they didn't want any long term costs while forgetting that thousands of new houses brings in millions in council tax for little extra cost.

It may not be popular but I would stop people owning lots of houses to rent out and people can survive without a weekend property.

Yep, property should be used as a place to make a home not a vehicle for profit.

SkyblueBazza · Jul 20, 2017

Liquid Gold said:
It amazes me how so many people who have so little interaction with migrant communities see them as a problem yet those of us that live in heavily migrant populated areas have no problem at all.

What makes you think you know what interactions others have with anything or anyone?

The people themselves aren't the problem in my view...their presence adds to existing problems.

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SBAndy · Jul 20, 2017

Terry Gibson's perm said:
Where I live in Nuneaton the new developments are crazy one near to me they applied to build 200 odd houses got it passed and then said they will build 400 plus but it's not all down to immigration it's also people wanting to live alone years ago people lived at home and got married and bought a house now they leave home and live alone until meeting a partner. The builders said they would build a new school but the council said no need as they didn't want any long term costs while forgetting that thousands of new houses brings in millions in council tax for little extra cost.

It may not be popular but I would stop people owning lots of houses to rent out and people can survive without a weekend property.

Where in Nuneaton do you live? The developments round the Horeston Grange/Long Shoot/A5 area are ridiculous. Something like an extra 5500 houses being built.

fernandopartridge · Jul 20, 2017

SBAndy said:
Where in Nuneaton do you live? The developments round the Horeston Grange/Long Shoot/A5 area are ridiculous. Something like an extra 5500 houses being built.

Funny you should mention it, drove down the Long Shoot the other day, couldn't believe it. Nuneaton has always had a lot of new build housing, its population must have increased a fair bit over the last 30 years

Terry Gibson's perm · Jul 20, 2017

SBAndy said:
Where in Nuneaton do you live? The developments round the Horeston Grange/Long Shoot/A5 area are ridiculous. Something like an extra 5500 houses being built.

St Nicolas Park no new infrastructure just houses being built

martcov · Jul 20, 2017

SkyblueBazza said:
Because the original point was concerning the awful living conditions in Calais...they are illegals trying to gain access to Britain.

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How can they be illegal Immigrants when they haven't arrived yet?

martcov · Jul 20, 2017

SkyblueBazza said:
Strayed way off the point now. We were talking about the awful conditions people live in at Calais. I say by choosing to migrate here and persisting on trying to sneak into the country, where they WILL increase more strain on our infrastructure, they are choosing to live in those awful conditions. They are illegals trying to mostly work the system to seek asylum or some other status where they enter the system of official numbers often quoted.

You can throw such numbers about all you like...but even the officials that produce them went on record saying they don't really know how many have entered the country legally or otherwise paricularly during the Blair years.

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I am an economic migrant in Germany- left Cov in 1981 during the collapse of the car industry. I employ people, pay taxes, pay tax assessments based on fictive calculations by the tax office, made a child who will carry on paying taxes when I've gone... won't get a state pension as I am self employed... I would think Germany would be happy enough..

There are millions of migrants who go abroad to work and help the economy of their new country. Just blaming them in the U.K. for you being late for work etc. is stupid.

Farage used the same arguments about the M4. You are in good company.

martcov · Jul 20, 2017

Here we go......

"In a further sign of worsening relations, the EU has threatened that British people living in the EU face losing their automatic right to move to another member state. That stance would not change unless Britain agreed to allow EU nationals living in this country to move to another EU country and then return to the UK, Brussels sources said."

That means me. I still haven't got round to German citizenship... have the forms...but have to do a German test....and a course...wtf....I speak German all day..with a Coventry accent. Actually I have a better German vocabulary than my German girlfriend. It is already a joke, but now this. Better get a move on before this gets really bad.

I've done nothing wrong, but have become a pawn in a senseless lose - lose battle between Brexit Britain and the EU.

Fuck Brexit. Fuck Brexiteers. Especially Gove - slimy c**t, BoJo bullshitting buffoon and most of all that slimy, grinning, self important, snobbish gravy training public schoolboy, 70s NF fan, philanderer and creep: Farage.

What a bunch of wankers we have as negotiators as well ( Davis: thick as mince and lazy as a toad according to a leave campaign chief ). It is no longer Britain leaving the EU, but the mood is changing to throwing Britain out on the worse possible terms and good riddance.

Doesn't help people like me though. There are between a million and 1,5 million of us.

How on earth do we get people like Gove and Johnson in the cabinet? Gove stabbed Johnson in the back and opposed May. Does anyone in working class Britain ( which includes a large part of Coventry ) actually like this guy? Or want him as minister of the environment? Johnson is lying journalist ( actually been sacked more than once for just that ) and philanderer. Are these the qualities you need to be foreign minister? Add to that insulting loads of countries and their leaders...

Add to the whole government scenario the 1 billion bung to get the loopy DUP on board.

It is almost as bad as the Trump Presidency..... What a mess.

skybluetony176 · Jul 20, 2017

Davies has proved himself to be useless over the last couple of weeks. All of a sudden I'm remembering why he lost a leadership contest to Cameron. Most unconvincing negotiator ever. Always comes across as a self riotous prick when he's on question time also.

SkyblueBazza · Jul 21, 2017

martcov said:
How can they be illegal Immigrants when they haven't arrived yet?

Same way as walking about with an AK47 & a bomb-laden rucksack doesn't make you a terrorist unless or until you start shooting & detonating.

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