The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (5 Viewers)

CCFCSteve · Feb 6, 2020

I personally don’t think there should be another referendum just yet in Scotland (too soon since last one which was a once in a generation vote) however things have changed I suppose so it will be difficult to stop.

If they vote for independence that’s there choice. It will be a shame but whether Brexit happened or not both Scotland’s and NI would be having referenda at some point in the coming years (as should be their right to determine their own future(s))

Ps agree within a number of Grendels points on information/arguments by SNP. Surprised more work hasn’t been done to address some of the inaccuracies, especially relating to the economics. This should have been drip fed over the past few years in preparation for times like we now find ourselves in ie how the lower than anticipated oil prices would’ve left a significant (billions) hole in the Scottish finances. If then, voters still vote for independence knowing the potential risks/consequences, then, like Leavers, fair enough. The SNP, as the party of government, should at least try provide accurate assessments and the ramifications of independence, to support their arguments.

wingy · Feb 6, 2020

Of course Farage didn't have to deliver anything while running a government etc
Now if she was sitting in Westminster without Holyrood?

wingy · Feb 6, 2020

CCFCSteve said:
I personally don’t think there should be another referendum just yet in Scotland (too soon since last one which was a once in a generation vote) however things have changed I suppose so it will be difficult to stop.

If they vote for independence that’s there choice. It will be a shame but whether Brexit happened or not both Scotland’s and NI would be having referenda at some point in the coming years (as should be their right to determine their own future(s))

Ps agree within a number of Grendels points on information/arguments by SNP. Surprised more work hasn’t been done to address some of the inaccuracies, especially relating to the economics. This should have been drip fed over the past few years in preparation for times like we now find ourselves in ie how the lower than anticipated oil prices would’ve left a significant (billions) hole in the Scottish finances. If then, voters still vote for independence knowing the potential risks/consequences, then, like Leavers, fair enough. The SNP, as the party of government, should at least try provide accurate assessments and the ramifications of independence, to support their arguments.

One man's meat is another's Gristle when it comes to stats and projections ,what did they call it this time ?
Project fear
I'm not saying don't do what yousuggest though
Just making the general point.

SkyBlueDom26 · Feb 6, 2020

@Ring Of Steel Your replies are about as Mart as it gets

Ring Of Steel · Feb 6, 2020

Well I just stumbled across a really fantastic album on Bandcamp so I'm all blissed out now, Boris can do what he wants for a few hours

Ring Of Steel · Feb 6, 2020

SkyBlueDom26 said:
@Ring Of Steel Your replies are about as Mart as it gets

Whatever you like pal, you knock yourself out with the Columbo bullshit

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 6, 2020

SkyBlueDom26 said:
@Ring Of Steel Your replies are about as Mart as it gets

No I'm Martacus

Grendel · Feb 6, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
Whatever you like pal, you knock yourself out with the Columbo bullshit

He is right though

Oh and just one more thing

shmmeee · Feb 6, 2020

CCFCSteve said:
I personally don’t think there should be another referendum just yet in Scotland (too soon since last one which was a once in a generation vote) however things have changed I suppose so it will be difficult to stop.

If they vote for independence that’s there choice. It will be a shame but whether Brexit happened or not both Scotland’s and NI would be having referenda at some point in the coming years (as should be their right to determine their own future(s))

Ps agree within a number of Grendels points on information/arguments by SNP. Surprised more work hasn’t been done to address some of the inaccuracies, especially relating to the economics. This should have been drip fed over the past few years in preparation for times like we now find ourselves in ie how the lower than anticipated oil prices would’ve left a significant (billions) hole in the Scottish finances. If then, voters still vote for independence knowing the potential risks/consequences, then, like Leavers, fair enough. The SNP, as the party of government, should at least try provide accurate assessments and the ramifications of independence, to support their arguments.

No Brexit supporter can have a go at Scottish Independence basing itself on guy feel and ignoring economic predictions, come on!

shmmeee · Feb 6, 2020

We knoe ROS was rob87 why would he rename himself Mart? His writing style and points he makes are totally different.

This is just you trying to write off any disagreements. Man up and debate him properly.

Ring Of Steel · Feb 6, 2020

Damn thats good- "Back To Mine- Jungle" in the unlikely event anyone is interested... and no its not jungle as in old school D'n'B!

I tried to get the rob87 name back actually, but it hasn't been approved, the request is sitting in someone's inbox I think.

Again, in the unlikely event that anyone is interested, The 'Ring of Steel' name relates to when Kev Monks was going around putting out ultra negative stories all the time and I got into a bit of a rumble with him, then in the run up to the last game at HR he said that the police were going to set up a human "Ring of steel" around the pitch to stop anyone running on, I found the terminology pretty amusing. As it transpired on that glorious, never to be forgotten day, the Ring of Steel didn't work so well.

Ring Of Steel · Feb 6, 2020

shmmeee said:
No Brexit supporter can have a go at Scottish Independence basing itself on guy feel and ignoring economic predictions, come on!

An erudite & accurate observation if ever there was one.

Oncle Jazz by Men Trust up next, been waiting for this one... and no its not a jazz album!

Grendel · Feb 6, 2020

shmmeee said:
No Brexit supporter can have a go at Scottish Independence basing itself on guy feel and ignoring economic predictions, come on!

The economic indicators for Scotland are much worse

Ring Of Steel · Feb 6, 2020

Grendel said:
The economic indicators for Scotland are much worse

Thats all just 'Project Fear'

CCFCSteve · Feb 6, 2020

shmmeee said:
No Brexit supporter can have a go at Scottish Independence basing itself on guy feel and ignoring economic predictions, come on!

haha, kind of knew that was coming shmmeee, which is why I made the point about the iffy info coming from SNP as the governing party. I suppose we could argue the Tory governments predictions were also iffy when it came to Brexit though

ps probably not explaining myself very well but it would’ve been the equivalent of the Tory government saying that Brexit would be fine and there would be no negative impact (as we know it was the opposite)

Grendel · Feb 6, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
Thats all just 'Project Fear'

No as we are net contributors to the EU and they are beneficiaries from the uk purse. We have a currency - they don’t

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 6, 2020

Grendel said:
No as we are net contributors to the EU and they are beneficiaries from the uk purse. We have a currency - they don’t

Just like we decided that flipping off Europe mattered more than economics they can and maybe will do the same to RUK

CCFCSteve · Feb 6, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Just like we decided that flipping off Europe mattered more than economics they can and maybe will do the same to RUK

which to be fair BSB is their prerogative. I think they still might as well. The SNP should be straighter with people though (think you already agreed with that)

Grendel · Feb 6, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Just like we decided that flipping off Europe mattered more than economics they can and maybe will do the same to RUK

We are a much larger economy and if you believe it or not can make an argument on leaving the EU

Even before Brexit the SNP believed they could leave the uk and the Eu and would be stronger

skybluetony176 · Feb 6, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
Thats all just 'Project Fear'

The Spain will veto it urban myth is definitely project fear. It was started by the “Better together” campaign in the independence referendum campaign and despite Spain officially dismissing it at the time and several times since when ever the myth raises it’s head again people of a certain mentality like to repeat it. The only thing they’ve said is that Scottish Independence must be legally obtained, anything added to that is simply as you say project fear.

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 6, 2020

CCFCSteve said:
which to be fair BSB is their prerogative. I think they still might as well. The SNP should be straighter with people though (think you already agreed with that)

Yup never said it wasn't, I just find both ideologies frustrating to deal with and mutually hypocritical. The SNP for saying 'you can't just throw your toys out the pram and threaten to leave when things go your way', or the Brexiters saying that Scotland is 'better off as part of a greater whole'. I can't stand nationalism, is the gist of what I'm saying. In some parallel universe we'd identify as human

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 6, 2020

Grendel said:
We are a much larger economy and if you believe it or not can make an argument on leaving the EU

Even before Brexit the SNP believed they could leave the uk and the Eu and would be stronger

Oil prices at the time seemed to support that but they dodged a bullet. I know that their arguments are bollocks but the political frustration up there is pretty high so it's time that Johnson proved he actually is a 'one nation Tory'

CCFCSteve · Feb 6, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Yup never said it wasn't, I just find both ideologies frustrating to deal with and mutually hypocritical. The SNP for saying 'you can't just throw your toys out the pram and threaten to leave when things go your way', or the Brexiters saying that Scotland is 'better off as part of a greater whole'. I can't stand nationalism, is the gist of what I'm saying. In some parallel universe we'd identify as human

Can’t really disagree

Ps I know you pay more than a passing interest in US politics, you might like The Clinton Affair on history channel

CCFCSteve · Feb 6, 2020

CCFCSteve said:
Can’t really disagree

Ps I know you pay more than a passing interest in US politics, you might like The Clinton Affair on history channel

apart from the fact I suppose that the UK has been around far longer than the EU. I’d consider it a far more intertwined social and political union. Still the Scots call though

Grendel · Feb 6, 2020

CCFCSteve said:
Can’t really disagree

Ps I know you pay more than a passing interest in US politics, you might like The Clinton Affair on history channel

Oh yes Brighton happy to bet on this Sanders Trump thing if it happens - name your price

wingy · Feb 6, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Yup never said it wasn't, I just find both ideologies frustrating to deal with and mutually hypocritical. The SNP for saying 'you can't just throw your toys out the pram and threaten to leave when things go your way', or the Brexiters saying that Scotland is 'better off as part of a greater whole'. I can't stand nationalism, is the gist of what I'm saying. In some parallel universe we'd identify as human

Absolutely.

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 6, 2020

Grendel said:
Oh yes Brighton happy to bet on this Sanders Trump thing if it happens - name your price

Shall we say £20?

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 6, 2020

CCFCSteve said:
Can’t really disagree

Ps I know you pay more than a passing interest in US politics, you might like The Clinton Affair on history channel

I've been watching the last few days of politics over there with some dismay. First at the Dems for giving Trump a guaranteed acquittal by pursuing a doomed impeachment case, and secondly also at the Dems for the farce at the Iowa caucus. They are doing the best they can to get him re-elected but Sanders should win the next state primary pretty comfortably at least.

Ring Of Steel · Feb 6, 2020

Forgive my curiosity but what are you betting on?

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 6, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
Forgive my curiosity but what are you betting on?

Bernie Sanders to beat Trump provided he wins the Democrat nomination-already have a similar wager with other right wing friends

Ring Of Steel · Feb 6, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Bernie Sanders to beat Trump provided he wins the Democrat nomination-already have a similar wager with other right wing friends

Ah ok. Well while I admire your sentiments, I would be a bit concerned about the power of the right wing forces in USA. I hope you’re right for sure.

Grendel · Feb 6, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Shall we say £20?

Sure

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 6, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
Ah ok. Well while I admire your sentiments, I would be a bit concerned about the power of the right wing forces in USA. I hope you’re right for sure.

Well they're not just sentiments, it's based on a number of things:

1. Sanders polls particularly well against Trump in the mid-Western states that lost it for Hillary in 2016. His anti-NAFTA record helps quite a bit with this.
2. He doesn't have the same problems with corruption or the legacy of outsourcing jobs that his rivals do.
3. He is pushing policies that are overwhelmingly popular with the American people, healthcare most of all.
4. The American stock market is doing well, but economic reality on the ground is still tough. Medical bankruptcies are still common, millions lost insurance because of the scrapping of Obamacare, and wage growth remains slow. The hole in the deficit is once again enormous.
5. He will make sure that the core voter base turns out in numbers, which they didn't do for Clinton.

True, he is up against an incumbent with a superficially nice looking economy. But I still think his chances are strong enough to justify a little wager.

Ring Of Steel · Feb 6, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Well they're not just sentiments, it's based on a number of things:

1. Sanders polls particularly well against Trump in the mid-Western states that lost it for Hillary in 2016. His anti-NAFTA record helps quite a bit with this.
2. He doesn't have the same problems with corruption or the legacy of outsourcing jobs that his rivals do.
3. He is pushing policies that are overwhelmingly popular with the American people, healthcare most of all.
4. The American stock market is doing well, but economic reality on the ground is still tough. Medical bankruptcies are still common, millions lost insurance because of the scrapping of Obamacare, and wage growth remains slow. The hole in the deficit is once again enormous.
5. He will make sure that the core voter base turns out in numbers, which they didn't do for Clinton.

True, he is up against an incumbent with a superficially nice looking economy. But I still think his chances are strong enough to justify a little wager.

Oh I’m on your side if it comes to who’s my favourite of the two, I’m referring to the tactics that are going to be employed, it will be ageist in the extreme for starters with the full firepower of the right behind Trump. But it would be a good step for the world if Sanders won. I can’t stand Biden.

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 6, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
Oh I’m on your side if it comes to who’s my favourite of the two, I’m referring to the tactics that are going to be employed, it will be ageist in the extreme for starters with the full firepower of the right behind Trump. But it would be a good step for the world if Sanders won. I can’t stand Biden.

Sanders isn't that much older. I expect the usual 'communist' and 'Venezuela' retorts will be made but Bernie's had these come his way for years and he knows how to bat them off. It's especially worth watching the town hall he did with FOX last year. Despite the hosts doing their best he got loud rounds of applause fairly constantly. Similar happened in West Virginia which went heavily for Trump last time.

The hardest part by far is the nomination. Democrats seem hell bent on keeping him out

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (5 Viewers)

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