The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (32 Viewers)

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Oct 25, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
A really good post. Fair post. I voted brexit but unfortunately as you state it doesn't appear much positive news at the moment. It needs good news but it will take time. Both sides appear to be stalling and negotiating and being awkward. you could argue both sides want Britain to stay in the EU as well and that doesn't help with moving forward.

I agree with Grendel I think in the long run we will be very prosperous but until this plays out everyone is left looking at the bad stuff for now.

Good points from both you and Dave.

I think there is an issue with both the government and the UK both actually wanting us to stay, and even when there is some small good news, we aren't actually really hearing it. As can be seen on this thread a few posts ago, it is very clear that some people don't want Brexit to be a success. Even if was a success, they'll still be trying to tell us it isn't. Unless we can jump over this hurdle, and unless we (sorry for saying this again) actually accept and respect the result, we are going to go nowhere other than round in circles.

Kingokings204 · Oct 25, 2017

clint van damme said:
And I gave you a specific example of one which appears to weigh heavily in favour of the larger trading partner. Note I said appeared, I'm quite happy for someone to point out to me why it's a great deal for Switzerland and a good example for us to follow.
I also asked about the nuances of WTO trade deals but no ones answered.Again, I said I find it confusing and am quite happy for someone to reassure me why everything's fine.

WTO rules has been covered i think but in case they haven't then I can shed some light although I'm not an expert I do know the basics which some may not.

We can set our own tariffs which is good news but they have to be applied to the rest of the world. So every country has the same deal essentially. So when you hear of 40% on clothing or whatever it is, thats if we can't agree to set it lower first. They are default tariffs should no deals be forthcoming.

We even in the EU set tariffs such as the famous 10% on Japanese cars into Britain. We all know the EU is protectionist and this is why. Obviously they rather we buy loads of German cars than Japanese cars. Common sense for the EU sure.

We can then do is set our own taxes and legislations to maximize the benefit for Britain not the whole of EU. British business and finance. The infamous take back control. That's why.

Take tata steel which has been in the news last few years. The UK government couldn't help them as against state aid rules and therefore they went bust. Reason being china is mass producing steel for a tenth of the cost (mainly energy prices which are extortionate here) and dumping it on the world market and everyone is buying it because it simply much cheaper putting companies like tata steel out of work and all those good employees. When we brexit we can either set massive tariffs on Chinese steel so it becomes a level playing field or lower energy costs for tata to compete fairly that way.

I'm no expert but that's it in a nutshell.

Kingokings204 · Oct 25, 2017

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Good points from both you and Dave.

I think there is an issue with both the government and the UK both actually wanting us to stay, and even when there is some small good news, we aren't actually really hearing it. As can be seen on this thread a few posts ago, it is very clear that some people don't want Brexit to be a success. Even if was a success, they'll still be trying to tell us it isn't. Unless we can jump over this hurdle, and unless we (sorry for saying this again) actually accept and respect the result, we are going to go nowhere other than round in circles.

The day Martcov admits brexit is a success is the day city win the premier league. :woot:

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Oct 25, 2017

clint van damme said:
you must be stupid if you can't see how Parliament was by passed whatever Gina Milers motives were, her point was still correct.

skybluetony176 said:
I’m sure she did them in her best interest but let’s not pretend that it also didn’t act in the best interests of democracy. If you’re happy for the government to pick and choose what constitutional laws they adhere to you’re basically saying that you’re happy with a dictatorship. That’s not democracy. We’ve repeatedly voted in governments on the premise of them adhering to our constitutional law. All she’s done is make sure that the law is followed and parliament rules on it as per the constitution.

martcov said:
Are you getting behind Tim Fisher and SISU? They are our Brexit.

Of course, you are well entitled to argue that she did this to hold the government to account. The thing that you need to remember is that if she was pro Brexit, would she have done this? The answer is no.

She tried to reverse article 50. The result of the biggest vote turnout in UK history. If you cannot see how wrong that is for democracy then you probably shouldn't be commenting on politics, as much as I like your contributions generally.

It's a really dangerous and backward path to go down.

skybluetony176 · Oct 25, 2017

Ashdown said:
The EU are refusing to let things move forward !

That’s just with the EU. He’s talking about the rest of the world and the work we’ve got to do at home because it will no longer be done for us by the EU.

skybluetony176 · Oct 25, 2017

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Of course, you are well entitled to argue that she did this to hold the government to account. The thing that you need to remember is that if she was pro Brexit, would she have done this? The answer is no.

She tried to reverse article 50. The result of the biggest vote turnout in UK history. If you cannot see how wrong that is for democracy then you probably shouldn't be commenting on politics, as much as I like your contributions generally.

It's a really dangerous and backward path to go down.

If she’d have been pro brexit I’d still be saying she did the right thing simply for the reason she did the right thing. The government tried to side step this country’s constitutional law, that’s this country’s, not the EU’s or anyone else’s, ours. Only a complete moron would champion that sort of behaviour. They were wrong, she was right and our, that word again, our constitutional law has quite rightly been upheld. The only thing anyone should be upset about regardless of what they voted in or out in the referendum is that the government tried to bypass the system that’s there to safeguard us against power grabs and dictatorship. Nobody elected them to do that and it certainly wasn’t granted from the referendum.

skybluetony176 · Oct 25, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
The day Martcov admits brexit is a success is the day city win the premier league. :woot:

Is it going to take that long for brexit to be a success?

Astute · Oct 25, 2017

Business giants avoided paying £5.8 billion in UK tax | Daily Mail Online

Take a read.

Shall we have a guess on who won't notice how they question what part Juncker had to play in it all but won't mention any part of it. They say it is illegal state aid.

Yet Juncker is still in charge of the EU.

But in the UK things are different. Not as serious as fraud. But comments seen as derogatory by a Labour MP gets him immediately suspended while they investigate
Labour suspends MP over abusive comments

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Oct 25, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
If she’d have been pro brexit I’d still be saying she did the right thing simply for the reason she did the right thing. The government tried to side step this country’s constitutional law, that’s this country’s, not the EU’s or anyone else’s, ours. Only a complete moron would champion that sort of behaviour. They were wrong, she was right and our, that word again, our constitutional law has quite rightly been upheld. The only thing anyone should be upset about regardless of what they voted in or out in the referendum is that the government tried to bypass the system that’s there to safeguard us against power grabs and dictatorship. Nobody elected them to do that and it certainly wasn’t granted from the referendum.

She tried to reverse article 50, no matter how much you try to gloss her as your hero.

Ashdown · Oct 25, 2017

chiefdave said:
Who it is down to doesn't really matter. We're essentially no further forward than the morning after the vote. We've got 520 days until we leave people need to be given some assurance we will actually be ready.

Can't just turn round and say its the EU's fault when we're the ones who stuck two fingers up to them and said we were leaving.

Yes of course we can blame them, or else when we joined it should have been in the constitution that no country would be permitted to leave. That is the stunt they are trying to pull and that is basically what has happened with any other dissenters in the past. You can't keep pointing the finger at our negotiators if the other side refuses to actually.............negotiate.

martcov · Oct 25, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
The day Martcov admits brexit is a success is the day city win the premier league. :woot:

I would take that and buy you a couple of drinks. Both are just as likely as each other.

martcov · Oct 25, 2017

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
It clearly is nothing to do with that. It was clearly all along her not wanting Brexit to happen and throwing her toys out the pram in any way possible, her chosen commodity being court cases.

That's the problem, some people say Brexit will work, others say it won't. If you were that worried about the outcome for the UK, now that there is no option to turn back, surely the right thing to do would be to get behind it and give it a chance? Then I suppose at least if it doesn't work, people will be able to feed their ego's and say 'I told you so'. How are we even going to know without giving it a fair crack? This comes from people within government, all the way down to the roots of an EU thread on SBT.

The reason you are getting bulldog spirit references being thrown around is because there are many people who would happily see the country fail so that they can be proved right. You wouldn't have got that during the war, and if you had, we would have lost. It's like a defeatist mentality. It's the same thing as we see the 'negotiations' go further. The EU display their true colours more and more each day, but instead of anyone saying, 'even as a remainer, I disagree with that', in many cases they are just throwing their support behind them even more. Why? Because people cannot accept being wrong, or that they lost. They'd rather side with something that seeks to destroy our culture and heritage.

The EU certainly doesn't care about us, and since we have voted to leave you can see that even more.

For the record, two holding midfielders is working, as we are conceding almost zero goals. It's the wingers/attacking mid/strikers that are fluffing their lines.

Last point is correct.

The big difference between the war is that it was clear who the enemy was and the enemy had broken several international treaties and was sending armed forces to annex a country we were supposed to aid in the event of an attack. With the EU, it is not the enemy and we are the ones upsetting the status quo. Half the country voted against leaving. It will take a lot to show that leaving was the right decision and that we are doing well in the negotiations.

No sign of that at the moment.

Ashdown · Oct 25, 2017

martcov said:
I would take that and buy you a couple of drinks. Both are just as likely as each other.

Only 'cos you get the drinks at cost you tight arse !

clint van damme · Oct 25, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
WTO rules has been covered i think but in case they haven't then I can shed some light although I'm not an expert I do know the basics which some may not.

We can set our own tariffs which is good news but they have to be applied to the rest of the world. So every country has the same deal essentially. So when

Kingokings204 said:

WTO rules has been covered i think but in case they haven't then I can shed some light although I'm not an expert I do know the basics which some may not.

We can set our own tariffs which is good news but they have to be applied to the rest of the world. So every country has the same deal essentially. So when you hear of 40% on clothing or whatever it is, thats if we can't agree to set it lower first. They are default tariffs should no deals be forthcoming.

We even in the EU set tariffs such as the famous 10% on Japanese cars into Britain. We all know the EU is protectionist and this is why. Obviously they rather we buy loads of German cars than Japanese cars. Common sense for the EU sure.

We can then do is set our own taxes and legislations to maximize the benefit for Britain not the whole of EU. British business and finance. The infamous take back control. That's why.

Take tata steel which has been in the news last few years. The UK government couldn't help them as against state aid rules and therefore they went bust. Reason being china is mass producing steel for a tenth of the cost (mainly energy prices which are extortionate here) and dumping it on the world market and everyone is buying it because it simply much cheaper putting companies like tata steel out of work and all those good employees. When we brexit we can either set massive tariffs on Chinese steel so it becomes a level playing field or lower energy costs for tata to compete fairly that way.

I'm no expert but that's it in a nutshell.

Click to expand...

you hear of 40% on clothing or whatever it is, thats if we can't agree to set it lower first. They are default tariffs should no deals be forthcoming.

We even in the EU set tariffs such as the famous 10% on Japanese cars into Britain. We all know the EU is protectionist and this is why. Obviously they rather we buy loads of German cars than Japanese cars. Common sense for the EU sure.

We can then do is set our own taxes and legislations to maximize the benefit for Britain not the whole of EU. British business and finance. The infamous take back control. That's why.

Take tata steel which has been in the news last few years. The UK government couldn't help them as against state aid rules and therefore they went bust. Reason being china is mass producing steel for a tenth of the cost (mainly energy prices which are extortionate here) and dumping it on the world market and everyone is buying it because it simply much cheaper putting companies like tata steel out of work and all those good employees. When we brexit we can either set massive tariffs on Chinese steel so it becomes a level playing field or lower energy costs for tata to compete fairly that way.

I'm no expert but that's it in a nutshell.

it's not so much the tariffs as the regulations and standards which I am struggling to see how they work.
We currently comply with the legislation and standards set out in the EUs trading agreement with it's trading partners.
When we go under WTO rules we will be subject to WTO Technical Barriers to Trade, (I think!)
I think this is what several airline companies have expressed concern about regarding aviation.
It's hard to find out exactly how it will affect us because it's hard to find an example of where a country has gone into WTO trade agreements in similar circumstances to us.

clint van damme · Oct 25, 2017

Ashdown said:
You can't keep pointing the finger at our negotiators if the other side refuses to actually.............negotiate.

you can when they failed in India and the US as well. Though I'm sure you'll find some way of blaming the EU for that!

Grendel · Oct 25, 2017

clint van damme said:
you can when they failed in India and the US as well. Though I'm sure you'll find some way of blaming the EU for that!

They haven’t failed have they? The Eu takes years and years to tie deals down. The fact we even can get any dialogue at this stage shows we are much better placed.

skybluetony176 · Oct 25, 2017

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
She tried to reverse article 50, no matter how much you try to gloss her as your hero.

No she didn’t. She ensured that parliament voted on it inline with our constitutional law. The only people that have the power to reverse article 50 is parliament, collectively. That’s not gloss that’s just fact.

skybluetony176 · Oct 25, 2017

Grendel said:
They haven’t failed have they? The Eu takes years and years to tie deals down. The fact we even can get any dialogue at this stage shows we are much better placed.

Talk is cheap though and doesn’t guarantee us a better deal than the EU enjoys with whoever. The proof is in the pudding and you’re already counting your eggs.

clint van damme · Oct 25, 2017

Grendel said:
They haven’t failed have they? The Eu takes years and years to tie deals down. The fact we even can get any dialogue at this stage shows we are much better placed.

luke warm reception from both and quite clear that India isn't interested without a relaxation of visa restrictions. Not exactly snapping our hands off.
And if they give into Indias demands can you imagine the reaction from certain sections of the leave vote when they find out we've swapped white immigrants for brown ones?!

martcov · Oct 25, 2017

Grendel said:
They haven’t failed have they? The Eu takes years and years to tie deals down. The fact we even can get any dialogue at this stage shows we are much better placed.

How did the dialogue go?

Sick Boy · Oct 25, 2017

clint van damme said:
luke warm reception from both and quite clear that India isn't interested without a relaxation of visa restrictions. Not exactly snapping our hands off.
And if they give into Indias demands can you imagine the reaction from certain sections of the leave vote when they find out we've swapped white immigrants for brown ones?!

Come on, just close your eyes really hard and believe in Britain and Brexit and everything will be okay!!!

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Oct 25, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Come on, just close your eyes really hard and believe in Britain and Brexit and everything will be okay!!!

That's the spirit!!!

Astute · Oct 25, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Come on, just close your eyes really hard and believe in Britain and Brexit and everything will be okay!!!

I close my eyes really hard and imagine Juncker wants what is best for the people of the EU.

But all that I can think of is him being involved in the tax dodging that others in the EU are calling fraud. And he is still in charge of the EU.

martcov · Oct 26, 2017

Astute said:
I close my eyes really hard and imagine Juncker wants what is best for the people of the EU.

But all that I can think of is him being involved in the tax dodging that others in the EU are calling fraud. And he is still in charge of the EU.

He is not in charge of the EU. He is President of the European Commission and does not have executive power. You always big him up for some reason.

clint van damme · Oct 26, 2017

Astute said:
I close my eyes really hard and imagine Juncker wants what is best for the people of the EU.

But all that I can think of is him being involved in the tax dodging that others in the EU are calling fraud. And he is still in charge of the EU.

that's how I feel about the Tories and the people of the UK, (well everyone except for the 10% whose wealth has carried on increasing while the rest of us suffer austerity).

Astute · Oct 26, 2017

martcov said:
He is not in charge of the EU. He is President of the European Commission and does not have executive power. You always big him up for some reason.

So if he is nothing to the EU who is in charge?

And why hasn't he been suspended yet considering that the EU is calling what happened in Luxembourg whilst he was in charge fraud?

I suppose being the PM wasn't in charge next.

Astute · Oct 26, 2017

Jean-Claude Juncker's real scandal is his tax-haven homeland of Luxembourg

Seems like a decent report considering the reporter even mentions his own paper as using Luxembourg to dodge tax.

And those who earlier said we should chase tax not being paid now defend Juncker and the EU for not at least suspending him. They knew all about it from the start.

martcov · Oct 26, 2017

Astute said:
So if he is nothing to the EU who is in charge?

And why hasn't he been suspended yet considering that the EU is calling what happened in Luxembourg whilst he was in charge fraud?

I suppose being the PM wasn't in charge next.

There is a parliament of MEPs and council of governments.

martcov · Oct 26, 2017

Astute said:
Jean-Claude Juncker's real scandal is his tax-haven homeland of Luxembourg

Seems like a decent report considering the reporter even mentions his own paper as using Luxembourg to dodge tax.

And those who earlier said we should chase tax not being paid now defend Juncker and the EU for not at least suspending him. They knew all about it from the start.

Name someone who is defending him for his country‘s tax dodging scheme? No one. I said I don’t know if he has done anything illegal, but if he has he should be punished. I googled your question and I got a row of Sun hateful and vicious attacks on him. Critical I can understand, but to blame him for everything and call his colleagues EU Monkeys smells of a planned wind up campaign aimed at Sun, Express and Mail type readers who lap this up as if Juncker is some sort of evil emperor. Dick.. yes. Tax dodger.... maybe, but what the Sun says is too stupid and could only be taken in by 8 to 12 year olds. I trust you don’t get your info from the Sun? I don’t have you in that category.

Astute · Oct 26, 2017

martcov said:
Name someone who is defending him for his country‘s tax dodging scheme? No one. I said I don’t know if he has done anything illegal, but if he has he should be punished. I googled your question and I got a row of Sun hateful and vicious attacks on him. Critical I can understand, but to blame him for everything and call his colleagues EU Monkeys smells of a planned wind up campaign aimed at Sun, Express and Mail type readers who lap this up as if Juncker is some sort of evil emperor. Dick.. yes. Tax dodger.... maybe, but what the Sun says is too stupid and could only be taken in by 8 to 12 year olds. I trust you don’t get your info from the Sun? I don’t have you in that category.

And here is your way of changing the subject. Go off on one about the Sun when nobody has mentioned the rag. Yet you do nothing in his defence?

I say about Juncker and the EU to show what sort of organisation it is. People in the EU are calling it fraud. People in the EU know he is involved. Yet nobody in the EU is willing to do anything about it. Everything has gone quiet.

3 Trillion Euro's have flowed into Luxembourg since the tax dodge started. So how much tax has been dodged in this time?

clint van damme · Oct 26, 2017

Here's one of the issues I was referring to regarding everything not being straight forward with the WTO.

Despite what some on this board say, the UK and EU have reached agreement on post Brexit food quotas but it's been contested by several WTO members including the US.

I don't think this isn't going to be as straight forward as people think.

British farmers could be worse off as Trump objects to UK-EU deal on food quotas

Astute · Oct 26, 2017

clint van damme said:
Here's one of the issues I was referring to regarding everything not being straight forward with the WTO.

Despite what some on this board say, the UK and EU have reached agreement on post Brexit food quotas but it's been contested by several WTO members including the US.

I don't think this isn't going to be as straight forward as people think.

British farmers could be worse off as Trump objects to UK-EU deal on food quotas

There are many ways the UK MIGHT be worse off. This is just one of them.

Just like there are many ways the EU MIGHT be worse off. But lets not mention these hey?

One more thing. Haven't you been saying that no deals have been made yet you bring up something on a deal that has been made.

chiefdave · Oct 26, 2017

martcov said:
Name someone who is defending him for his country‘s tax dodging scheme?

Hammand has talked about doing similar in the UK and May's spokesperson confirmed the UK as a low-tax, low-regulation haven was an option post-brexit.

RB1992 · Oct 26, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Oh well, it won't be long until the Euro collapses, and Austria, Holland and France leave the fascist commie EUSSR!

Does anyone know when Turkey is joining the EU, BTW?

hahahah spot on!!!

clint van damme · Oct 26, 2017

Astute said:
There are many ways the UK MIGHT be worse off. This is just one of them.

Just like there are many ways the EU MIGHT be worse off. But lets not mention these hey?

One more thing. Haven't you been saying that no deals have been made yet you bring up something on a deal that has been made.

what has the EU been worse off got to do with anything? I'm worried about our future.
And how does the EU and the UK coming to an agreement, (something you said hasn't been happening), and said agreement being scuppered by several WTO members constitute a deal?
I'm still waiting for someone to explain how been under WTO rules is going to benefit us but no one has, what I'm reading tells me we won't but when you start looking into it it's fairly confusing so I could be easily persuaded that it will be better if someone can clearly explain how.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (32 Viewers)

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