The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (65 Viewers)

chiefdave · Nov 22, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
There’s also the small matter of the minimum wage and living wage. Both of which are set by the British government. Nothing to do with the EU or immigrants. The government could address some of the issues surrounding low pay anytime they want but have chosen not to. They could quite easily link both to inflation but don’t. Maybe they’ll be an announcement in the budget later.

Exactly. In work benefits have gone through the roof in recent years as people in employment aren't earning enough to live on. That's while large corporations take huge profits.

When the living wage, which is actually just the minimum wage rebranded and well below what was calculated as the real living wage, was proposed Whitebread claimed they would have to increase prices across all their brands. When it was looked in to the actually cost to them would only be a tiny drop in profits.

The money is there, its just all being kept at the top and that's again nothing to do with immigration or the EU.

Astute · Nov 22, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Germany's population is something like 13 million more.

You seem to blame the EU for most of the country's issues. Your hatred for it will no doubt continue well into the future and you will probably be blaming it in 10 years time.

population of germany 2017 - Google Search

And

population of uk 2017 - Google Search

Germanys population has been steady for years. It goes up and down by a small amount each year. After ours shooting up it is now steady at going up by over half a milliin a year. So yes ours is catching up.

Astute · Nov 22, 2017

martcov said:
Only difference to me is that the UK government should put their commitment in writing to pay what they owe - as far as we can assess at the moment. May has said we wil honour our commitments. But, who knows how long she will be around and what she thinks are our commitments.

Henkel is pretty extreme in his views on the EU, but he isn’t talking about leaving it. I don’t know more than he does, but I don’t agree on everything he says. I agree on some things though. E.g He doesn’t want the UK EU Parliament seats redistributed. He wants them not to be replaced. I agree on that.

You agree with him when it is a good comment about the EU and disagree with him when he says something against the EU. Nothing unusual there.

Astute · Nov 22, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
There’s also the small matter of the minimum wage and living wage. Both of which are set by the British government. Nothing to do with the EU or immigrants. The government could address some of the issues surrounding low pay anytime they want but have chosen not to. They could quite easily link both to inflation but don’t. Maybe they’ll be an announcement in the budget later.

Our minimum wage is well over what is earned in many EU countries. That is why milliins have come to live here. So your point is?

Astute · Nov 22, 2017

chiefdave said:
Exactly. In work benefits have gone through the roof in recent years as people in employment aren't earning enough to live on. That's while large corporations take huge profits.

When the living wage, which is actually just the minimum wage rebranded and well below what was calculated as the real living wage, was proposed Whitebread claimed they would have to increase prices across all their brands. When it was looked in to the actually cost to them would only be a tiny drop in profits.

The money is there, its just all being kept at the top and that's again nothing to do with immigration or the EU.

If there was less competition for jobs they would have to pay more. Where I live they struggle to fill positions in many trades. So the wages are high. People travel to work here. They stay here Monday to Friday

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Nov 22, 2017

chiefdave said:
But again they are people we have a legitimate reason not to allow entry to the country now so leaving the EU will make no difference.

Try telling that to Poland and Hungary.

They seem to be having a hard time refusing them entry due to the EU.

martcov · Nov 22, 2017

Astute said:
You agree with him when it is a good comment about the EU and disagree with him when he says something against the EU. Nothing unusual there.

Nothing at all unusual. It would be unusual if I agreed 100% with someone from AfD ( ex ). It is possible to see good things and bad things to do with the EU.

skybluetony176 · Nov 22, 2017

Astute said:
Our minimum wage is well over what is earned in many EU countries. That is why milliins have come to live here. So your point is?

I made my point. You’ve somehow missed it.

martcov · Nov 22, 2017

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Try telling that to Poland and Hungary.

They seem to be having a hard time refusing them entry due to the EU.

There is something called solidarity. Poland seems to have forgotten what it means. How many were they asked to take and how many have they taken? How does that compare to their population?

chiefdave · Nov 22, 2017

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
They seem to be having a hard time refusing them entry due to the EU.

They are refusing to accept refugees. The point you made was about migrants posing as refugees, they have no entitlement to stay in the UK or any other EU country.

Its a problem we have created by bombing countries such as Syria with no plan on what to do with innocent civilians displaced by the bombing. It was even considered until people were pouring over the borders trying to escape.

Marty · Nov 22, 2017

martcov said:
There is something called solidarity. Poland seems to have forgotten what it means. How many were they asked to take and how many have they taken? How does that compare to their population?

The Polish are very nationalistic (nothing wrong with that). They probably look at the bigger EU members (UK, France, Germany etc.) and the influx of economic migrants (refugees), especially Muslims, seeing the problems we're having and what we have to deal with and want nothing to do with it (if that comes from 1st, 2nd or even 3rd gen). I don't blame them at all for not wanting these economic migrants.

martcov · Nov 22, 2017

chiefdave said:
They are refusing to accept refugees. The point you made was about migrants posing as refugees, they have no entitlement to stay in the UK or any other EU country.

Its a problem we have created by bombing countries such as Syria with no plan on what to do with innocent civilians displaced by the bombing. It was even considered until people were pouring over the borders trying to escape.

Yes, it is easy to blame Merkel for acting according to the Geneva convention rather than looking at the reason why some of the ME and Northern Africa has collapsed.

Marty · Nov 22, 2017

chiefdave said:
They are refusing to accept refugees. The point you made was about migrants posing as refugees, they have no entitlement to stay in the UK or any other EU country.

Its a problem we have created by bombing countries such as Syria with no plan on what to do with innocent civilians displaced by the bombing. It was even considered until people were pouring over the borders trying to escape.

They were never screened, nobody can tell if they're true refugees or not.

martcov · Nov 22, 2017

Marty said:
The Polish are very nationalistic (nothing wrong with that). They probably look at the bigger EU members (UK, France, Germany etc.) and the influx of economic migrants (refugees), especially Muslims, seeing the problems we're having and what we have to deal with and want nothing to do with it (if that comes from 1st, 2nd or even 3rd gen). I don't blame them at all for not wanting these economic migrants.

Our problems with some Muslims has more to do with our history than the EU. How do you know they are all economic migrants? Haven’t you seen pictures of cities in Iraq and Syria?

chiefdave · Nov 22, 2017

Marty said:
They were never screened, nobody can tell if they're true refugees or not.

That's an issue with the screening process. The UK, or any other country, are perfectly entitled to put a screening process in place.

As I said we started bombing people with no plan in place. There should have been reception camps for those displaced immediately over the border with the facility to screen the huge volumes of people fleeing quickly and efficiently and then a plan to distribute them to accepting countries.

Instead we waited until bodies were washing up on beaches.

Marty · Nov 22, 2017

martcov said:
Our problems with some Muslims has more to do with our history than the EU. How do you know they are all economic migrants? Haven’t you seen pictures of cities in Iraq and Syria?

I haven't said they're all economic migrants, we can't tell the difference and Merkels open door policy lead to the rampage across Europe. It was handled so badly by her and EU officials. I agree that we shouldn't have become involved in those conflicts, but I think we should have funded refugee camps in the likes of Turkey and Saudi, They shouldn't have been allowed to pass through so many boarders unchecked..

martcov · Nov 22, 2017

Marty said:
They were never screened, nobody can tell if they're true refugees or not.

I think if you look at the numbers and what they went through to get to e.g. Germany you might realise that there were a lot of people fleeing for their lives. How do you screen people from a war zone? They are now being more closely checked and registered.

Marty · Nov 22, 2017

chiefdave said:
That's an issue with the screening process. The UK, or any other country, are perfectly entitled to put a screening process in place.

As I said we started bombing people with no plan in place. There should have been reception camps for those displaced immediately over the border with the facility to screen the huge volumes of people fleeing quickly and efficiently and then a plan to distribute them to accepting countries.

Instead we waited until bodies were washing up on beaches.

They were already safe in Turkey, anything past that point is their own fault and they stopped being refugees and then became economic migrants.

skybluetony176 · Nov 22, 2017

Marty said:
They were already safe in Turkey, anything past that point is their own fault and they stopped being refugees and then became economic migrants.

Define safe? Because I think you have a different definition to me. There was many vulnerable children and women in camps in Turkey that were taken advantage of. It wasn’t just Turkey they crossed the border to and in other countries they were even more vulnerable. Especially to extortion and physical harm, many widows were forced into prostitution to feed their children, children and young people have been sexually abused etc. etc. Hardly safe.

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 22, 2017

I find it absurd to even consider the fact that we wouldn't offer sanctuary for anybody who is being persecuted...

Marty · Nov 22, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
Define safe? Because I think you have a different definition to me. There was many vulnerable children and women in camps in Turkey that were taken advantage of. It wasn’t just Turkey they crossed the border to and in other countries they were even more vulnerable. Especially to extortion and physical harm, many widows were forced into prostitution to feed their children, children and young people have been sexually abused etc. etc. Hardly safe.

So what I mentioned yesterday about some cultures being better then others, and I was shot down as racist for it. This just proves my point.

I've just looked at a map, their are 9 EU member states between Turkey and Germany, not including Poland, a further 4 non EU member states, all of which I would declare safe. I've even visited some. They prolonged their own suffering by not staying in these safe countries.

Like I said earlier, we shouldn't have got involved in these countries, we should have funded refugee camps in the first safe country.

skybluetony176 · Nov 22, 2017

Marty said:
So what I mentioned yesterday about some cultures being better then others, and I was shot down as racist for it. This just proves my point.

I've just looked at a map, their are 9 EU member states between Turkey and Germany, not including Poland, a further 4 non EU member states, all of which I would declare safe. I've even visited some. They prolonged their own suffering by not staying in these safe countries.

Like I said earlier, we shouldn't have got involved in these countries, we should have funded refugee camps in the first safe country.

Women being forced into prostitution to feed their children isn’t a cultural issue, it’s a lack of compassion to help them not get into that vulnerable position through no fault of their own issue. Unless you’re suggesting that a lack of compassion is our cultural issue? I watched some news footage on refugee children being forced into prostitution once they arrive in the apparent safe haven of Europe. The biggest client base by far was white men from so called civilised nations such as the U.K., France, Germany and other Western European countries. Again unless you’re suggesting that the cultural issue is that Western Europe is tolerant of pedophiles it isn’t a cultural issue.

Astute · Nov 22, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
I made my point. You’ve somehow missed it.

Try making a valid point for once. Then you could give a valid answer.

Astute · Nov 22, 2017

martcov said:
I think if you look at the numbers and what they went through to get to e.g. Germany you might realise that there were a lot of people fleeing for their lives. How do you screen people from a war zone? They are now being more closely checked and registered.

So how many safe countries did they go through?

Astute · Nov 22, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
Define safe? Because I think you have a different definition to me. There was many vulnerable children and women in camps in Turkey that were taken advantage of. It wasn’t just Turkey they crossed the border to and in other countries they were even more vulnerable. Especially to extortion and physical harm, many widows were forced into prostitution to feed their children, children and young people have been sexually abused etc. etc. Hardly safe.

So nowhere before North Europe is safe?

Astute · Nov 22, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
I find it absurd to even consider the fact that we wouldn't offer sanctuary for anybody who is being persecuted...

I find it absurd that we should have to let in anyone from the EU in and have to limit those who really need somewhere.

martcov · Nov 22, 2017

Astute said:
I find it absurd that we should have to let in anyone from the EU in and have to limit those who really need somewhere.

It is a two way thing anyway. We are part of Europe. We share history and culture. And, we were in an economic union which benefited us.

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 22, 2017

Astute said:
I find it absurd that we should have to let in anyone from the EU in and have to limit those who really need somewhere.

Well the economic migrants go towards funding the cost of the refugees...

chiefdave · Nov 22, 2017

Good news, Hammond has found the magic money tree and there's £3bn to plan for a no deal exit from the EU.

skybluetony176 · Nov 22, 2017

Astute said:
Try making a valid point for once. Then you could give a valid answer.

Ok I’ll dumb this down for you. You’re clearly not aware of the systems that are in place under U.K. law.

The government have control over something called minimum wage. It’s the minimum an employer in the U.K. is allowed to pay their workers.

The government have the freedom to set these levels as they choose.

If, as many are saying that wages in low paid jobs are too low they can raise the base levels of the minimum wage to address this should they wish, that’s should they wish.

The EU aren’t suppressing the minimum wage as they have no jurisdiction on it, EU immigrants aren’t suppressing the minimum wage because they aren’t running the country despite what the daily mail says.

That means that the responsibility for the minimum wage falls squarely and solely at the feet of the government elected by the voter. Just so you know labour pledged to increase it to £10 an hour taking thousands of working benefits cutting the benefits bill and raising more in taxes.

Kingokings204 · Nov 22, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
Ok I’ll dumb this down for you. You’re clearly not aware of the systems that are in place under U.K. law.

The government have control over something called minimum wage. It’s the minimum an employer in the U.K. is allowed to pay their workers.

The government have the freedom to set these levels as they choose.

If, as many are saying that wages in low paid jobs are too low they can raise the base levels of the minimum wage to address this should they wish, that’s should they wish.

The EU aren’t suppressing the minimum wage as they have no jurisdiction on it, EU immigrants aren’t suppressing the minimum wage because they aren’t running the country despite what the daily mail says.

That means that the responsibility for the minimum wage falls squarely and solely at the feet of the government elected by the voter. Just so you know labour pledged to increase it to £10 an hour taking thousands of working benefits cutting the benefits bill and raising more in taxes.

This just shows how of touch you really are. As said before get outside your front door. You give a perfectly reasonable answer but it’s not valid in the real world.

Try this one as a specific example;

Do the Eastern Europeans working at the car washes we see everywhere earn £7.20 an hour living wage you quoted and all go home to their families in a decent house after work?

skybluetony176 · Nov 22, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
This just shows how of touch you really are. As said before get outside your front door. You give a perfectly reasonable answer but it’s not valid in the real world.

Try this one as a specific example;

Do the Eastern Europeans working at the car washes we see everywhere earn £7.20 an hour living wage you quoted and all go home to their families in a decent house after work?

Out of touch? So the government can’t adjust the minimum wage? If people are being paid less than the minimum wage then that’s an issue with enforcement. Now who’s responsible for enforcing it I wonder? Must be the EU or immigrants.

martcov · Nov 22, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
This just shows how of touch you really are. As said before get outside your front door. You give a perfectly reasonable answer but it’s not valid in the real world.

Try this one as a specific example;

Do the Eastern Europeans working at the car washes we see everywhere earn £7.20 an hour living wage you quoted and all go home to their families in a decent house after work?

Who controls these things in the UK? A job for HMCR? But, nothing to do with Juncker or Merkel.

Kingokings204 · Nov 22, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
Out of touch? So the government can’t adjust the minimum wage? If people are being paid less than the minimum wage then that’s an issue with enforcement. Now who’s responsible for enforcing it I wonder? Must be the EU or immigrants.

You didn’t answer my question. Why?

I shall answer yours and I repeat I agree with what you said in theory but it’s not the reality. Eastern Europeans who work in these many many car washes we see now aren’t paid £7.20 an hour. So you’re theory goes out the window straight away.

The government does decide or national wage yes but also the solution of £10 an hour and raising another £3 an hour makes Britain more attractive and therefore more people come again. Where do they live? We have a housing crisis. Where is the infrastructure? Railways and roads? Nhs can’t cope already?

It’s a balancing act and I stated before in Bulgaria or Romania the living wage is £1-2 an hour. So it’s not hard to understand why they all come here and then send their money home to their family to support them. I don’t blame any of them but I do blame the rules and coming out the EU (if we have a strong government) can stop it.

It might even raise wages in this country which are massively depressed since open doors in 2004 and living standard for many others.

Kingokings204 · Nov 22, 2017

martcov said:
Who controls these things in the UK? A job for HMCR? But, nothing to do with Juncker or Merkel.

No but open door immigration is and that’s my point. The unskilled labour market such as car cleaners and fruit pickers is massively over subscribed hence the stagnation on wages throughout the country. Someone is willing to do it cheaper basically. Not to mention housing and infrastructure and nhs.

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