The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (67 Viewers)

chiefdave · Jun 10, 2016

Sick Boy said:
A lot of people seem to lump EU migrants, refugees and non EU migrants together for some reason.

That's the problem, its all soundbites and no proper arguments about what will happen. We'd still take refugees and non EU migrants and even those saying out say we should still take EU migrants that come here to work so we're not actually talking about much in the way of difference. And of course the leave campaign are saying we could then sign up for a trade deal with Europe, everyone else who has done that has to agree to freedom of movement only now we'd have no say in the rules being made!

Ian1779 · Jun 10, 2016

Sick Boy said:
A lot of people seem to lump EU migrants, refugees and non EU migrants together for some reason.

Not helped by the tripe rolled out by the Daily Mail/Express... It would appear that not a single one of their journalists is intelligent enough to know the difference.

Liquid Gold · Jun 10, 2016

Ian1779 said:
Not helped by the tripe rolled out by the Daily Mail/Express... It would appear that not a single one of their journalists is intelligent enough to know the difference.

More like it serves their purpose to deflect negative attention away from the elites who steal billions of tax revenue and to vulnerable people who have little effect

chiefdave · Jun 10, 2016

SIR ERNIE said:
'lose access to the single market'

Laughable. You haven't got a clue what you're talking about, you mug.

So what do you think we'll have? Something like Norway where we still pay in, still accept freedom of movement but have no say over any of the decision making process?

SIR ERNIE · Jun 10, 2016

chiefdave said:
So what do you think we'll have?

control

Johnnythespider · Jun 10, 2016

Pipehitterz said:
I decided - leave.
After the last tv debate. I have had enough of cameron and his spin and lying. He says nothing that is true, he is totally removed from actual real life in uk.

Ask yourself, why is someone that is on his side , Boris, so determined that we should leave.

One of them is wrong , and cameron has never been worth anything trust wise .
I sat on the fence as I really didn't know , but we had a great Britain before the eu , we will have one afterwards.

Since the eu came along we haven't had a great Britain , scotland have never been so distant, and wales seems to have left Britain a Long time ago, let's start flying our own flag with our own rules once more

Please vote out and get Britain back

Might it be that he quite fancies Cameron's job in a post Brexit Britain.

Johnnythespider · Jun 10, 2016

Johnnythespider said:
Might it be that he quite fancies Cameron's job in a post Brexit Britain.

chiefdave · Jun 10, 2016

SIR ERNIE said:
control

How will that happen? You can't cherry pick. If you want to be in the single market you'll have to agree to freedom of movement. The Norway model keeps being mentioned but that would mean paying in 94% of what we do now and agreeing to freedom of movement without any say in what direction the EU takes. How is that control?

SIR ERNIE · Jun 10, 2016

You're guessing/assuming about the consequences of a leave vote.
Don't listen to those with an agenda. It's your vote.
Who knows for sure? No one.

There is only ONE thing that's sure about the vote and that's that it is a chance to vote for self-determination.

It's an opportunity to free ourselves from the rule and oppression of a corrupt, unaccountable, elite.

Be brave. Vote for freedom.

Johnnythespider · Jun 10, 2016

For me this whole question boils down to one set of right wing politicians trying to wrest control from a slightly less right wing group of politicians.
The whole immigration issue is a red herring playing on the fears of the electorate, who I feel have got it completely wrong, they are blamed for everything from hospital waiting lists to rising property prices and rents. The NHS is understaffed because of underfunding, I was recently in hospital for a pre-op and there was one nurse trying to do ECG's on 4 people at once, she told me that they were looking for someone to help but they would only provide funding for a part time. Rents are simply going up because of the greed of private landlords, who are allowed to charge what they want without any controls placed on them.
In short nobody from the leave side has convinced me that anything will improve for me by leaving the EU, so unless that happens in the next 2 weeks I will be voting to remain.
Sorry Boris you posh twat.

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mrtrench · Jun 11, 2016

Johnnythespider said:
For me this whole question boils down to one set of right wing politicians trying to wrest control from a slightly less right wing group of politicians.
The whole immigration issue is a red herring playing on the fears of the electorate, who I feel have got it completely wrong, they are blamed for everything from hospital waiting lists to rising property prices and rents. The NHS is understaffed because of underfunding, I was recently in hospital for a pre-op and there was one nurse trying to do ECG's on 4 people at once, she told me that they were looking for someone to help but they would only provide funding for a part time. Rents are simply going up because of the greed of private landlords, who are allowed to charge what they want without any controls placed on them.
In short nobody from the leave side has convinced me that anything will improve for me by leaving the EU, so unless that happens in the next 2 weeks I will be voting to remain.
Sorry Boris you posh twat.

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Immigrants are not to blame for anything. Each one is exercising their right to travel in the world and work wherever they want. There may be some bad people who immigrate here but there are bad people everywhere. England made Peter Sutcliffe & Fred West.

What is a problem however is uncontrolled immigration. In a continent such as Europe where each country has a wildly different economy, the straight jacket of a single currency will force the weaker countries into greater poverty. The reasons for this are economic (fx rate and interest rates) which we can discuss more if you don't believe me. The EU knows this, which is why it has large membership fees - so it can redistribute the money to encourage growth in these regions and harmonise wealth throughout Europe. It also knows that in the short term it will be painful which is why it needs free movement (so that even if a region is suffering the people there can move away for work). What they are hoping is that over a long time, the population will even out again as their homeland benefits from the investment. It's a well-meant plan. It's also the first time I'm aware of that an experiment like this has been tried, so we don't know what will happen.

What will happen in the short term (20 years or more) is that poverty will increase in these countries and places like the UK and Germany will see huge increases in population. 250k net immigration to the UK in 2014; 330k in 2015. The population of Coventry is 316k, so just to maintain current housing availability we need to build a new Coventry every year (and throw in a Warwick to take the remainder). You have to ask yourself if the UK can or will build that many houses, because if we don't it won't be many years until there are shanty towns.

And what about the places trying to recover that are losing large percentages of their young people every year? How can they recover when the work force is leaving? How can they pay pensions and benefit support when tax income is reducing year on year? For sure they already have 50% youth unemployment but it won't just be the unemployed leaving - indeed there is an argument to suggest that the people with the gumption to leave are the most employable and have the most to offer.

So basically it's down to whether you think that the short term pain is worth the long term gain of a large single entity called Europe with wealth and employment fairly distributed throughout. And you are also taking a punt that the experiment will even work. I suspect it won't; once people settle down in their new homes many will never return. It could drive those regions into even greater poverty and the UK and Germany into greater wealth. It could also lead to civil war within Europe long before it reaches Arcadia.

It's all very well for the politicians to try and personalise it all, blaming immigrants or calling people little Englanders or racists but it misses the point by a country mile.

Liquid Gold · Jun 11, 2016

I think while the EU needs some solid reforms it is essentially a good thing and we shouldn't be turning our back on it. We should be looking at how we can reform our political system from the ground up, including westminster. Different things are better dealt with at different levels and having a supra-national continental body is useful for certain things, trade right, standardisation, workers right etc.

We should also be looking at how best to devolve power regionally too, we need to bodies more powerful than councils that can make decisions and take action for the city/county they represent. For too long we've put up with a bloated, centralised and often corrupt Westminster elite full of career politicians and this should be an opportunity to analyse not just our relationship with Europe but how we want to be governed in the 21st centuury.

armybike · Jun 11, 2016

SIR ERNIE said:
It's actually a very straightforward choice:

Self determination, control and democracy
or
Dictatorship, uncontrolled mass immigration and instability

The EU is in chaos. It's sinking and if we remain they will milk us dry.

Vote leave. Vote freedom.

So voting leave will bring stability? Stability of what? How will this stability be brought about? Can you provide the data to demonstrate this will happen.

Also this thing about freedom - care to expand?

Immigration - please tell me this isn't the "They take our houses, jobs, school places and are bringing the NHS to its knees' line?

This belief that all will be rosy if we leave is the most misplaced of all the opinions cited.

This country is on it's arse because of government after government failing to plan for the future and not from being in the EU.

Insufficient numbers of houses have been built over the last 15/20 years, the NHS is on its knees because of the ludicrous levels of management in place and attempts to privatise more and more sections which was start when Blair was in power, schools are not being controlled effectively because of the decisions to have them financed by so many different organisations - local council's, government, private, faith organisations etc.

These things won't suddenly be fixed by leaving and the "Yes, but the hundreds of millions we currently send each month to the EU could be spent on them" has no basis. That's not how financing works, you don't simply divert monies from one pot to another.

So by Leaving, the UK would continue to be in shit order despite all the posturing to the contrary.

armybike · Jun 11, 2016

Pipehitterz said:
Ask yourself, why is someone that is on his side , Boris, so determined that we should leave.

Because he wants to be the next Prime Minister.

martcov · Jun 11, 2016

chiefdave said:
How will that happen? You can't cherry pick. If you want to be in the single market you'll have to agree to freedom of movement. The Norway model keeps being mentioned but that would mean paying in 94% of what we do now and agreeing to freedom of movement without any say in what direction the EU takes. How is that control?

Plus it probably won't be offered - at least straight away, as a deterrent in case others follow suit. People in power can get pissed off - see what's happening with Higg's.

Sick Boy · Jun 11, 2016

SIR ERNIE said:
'lose access to the single market'

Laughable. You haven't got a clue what you're talking about, you mug.

Ha ha ha - 'you mug'? What a reasoned and eloquent response.

You obviously are confused as to what you're saying as you haven't bothered to tell us why a dictatorship is allowing a country a vote.

mrtrench · Jun 11, 2016

armybike said:
So by Leaving, the UK would continue to be in shit order despite all the posturing to the contrary.

The UK isn't shit.

armybike · Jun 11, 2016

mrtrench said:
The UK isn't shit.

I totally agree.

armybike · Jun 11, 2016

Sick Boy said:
You obviously are confused as to what you're saying as you haven't bothered to tell us why a dictatorship is allowing a country a vote.

This be the same dictatorship who forced us to abandon the Pound and start using the Euro.......oh, hang on a minute!

mrtrench · Jun 11, 2016

The EU is not a dictatorship because more than one person controls it. It's also benign. However it's not a democracy either. I think the EU is something we've never seen before: an attempt at combining socialist and capitalist philosophies together. It is working for a wider distribution of prosperity through commerce and nudging rather than forcing. If it were a democracy then the vision of the people driving it today would be compromised by politics. In many ways, a benign persistent power is the most effective way to get things done; and nobody could accuse the EU of not getting things done. Its aim is massive in scale.

SIR ERNIE · Jun 11, 2016

Dictatorship is a form of government where a country (or group of countries) is ruled by one person or political entity, and exercised through various mechanisms to ensure the entity's power remains strong.[1][2]

A dictatorship is a type of authoritarianism, in which politicians regulate nearly every aspect of the public and private behavior of citizens. Dictatorships and totalitarianism generally employ political propaganda to decrease the influence of proponents of alternative governing systems, as is the dingling of nationalism of any governing system

mrtrench · Jun 11, 2016

Thanks Ernie, so we've put that one to bed between us.

armybike · Jun 11, 2016

SIR ERNIE said:
Dictatorship is a form of government where a country (or group of countries) is ruled by one person or political entity, and exercised through various mechanisms to ensure the entity's power remains strong.[1][2]

A dictatorship is a type of authoritarianism, in which politicians regulate nearly every aspect of the public and private behavior of citizens. Dictatorships and totalitarianism generally employ political propaganda to decrease the influence of proponents of alternative governing systems, as is the dingling of nationalism of any governing system

I'm aware of what a dictatorship is.

The EU isn't one.

Sick Boy · Jun 11, 2016

SIR ERNIE said:
Dictatorship is a form of government where a country (or group of countries) is ruled by one person or political entity, and exercised through various mechanisms to ensure the entity's power remains strong.[1][2]

A dictatorship is a type of authoritarianism, in which politicians regulate nearly every aspect of the public and private behavior of citizens. Dictatorships and totalitarianism generally employ political propaganda to decrease the influence of proponents of alternative governing systems, as is the dingling of nationalism of any governing system

Hahahahahaha! Your comment is absurd and offensive to citizens around the world who have actually lived under a dictatorship.

You are unable to suggest what the UK would look like and how we would survive outside of the single market, apart from bleating on about dictstorships, being brave and taking control.

chiefdave · Jun 11, 2016

SIR ERNIE said:
You're guessing/assuming about the consequences of a leave vote.

And you're guessing as well. We're being told trade deals won't be a problem yet all the evidence suggests otherwise. There is nothing at all to suggest we would get preferential treatment over the type of deal other non-EU countries have with the EU.

SIR ERNIE · Jun 11, 2016

Wonderful scenes in London today to celebrate Her Majesty's 90th birthday.

Makes you proud to be English.

Sick Boy · Jun 11, 2016

SIR ERNIE said:
Wonderful scenes in London today to celebrate Her Majesty's 90th birthday.

Makes you proud to be English.

Which has nothing to do with the EU. You're the perfect advert for the remain campaign.

Considering that you think the EU is a dictatorship, I'm surprised that you don't view the Royal Family as even worse!

armybike · Jun 11, 2016

SIR ERNIE said:
Wonderful scenes in London today to celebrate Her Majesty's 90th birthday.

Makes you proud to be English.

Yep, whilst in the EU! :facepalm:

Johnnythespider · Jun 11, 2016

SIR ERNIE said:
Wonderful scenes in London today to celebrate Her Majesty's 90th birthday.

Makes you proud to be English.

You mean the unelected head of state

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armybike · Jun 11, 2016

Johnnythespider said:
You mean the unelected head of state

This!

SIR ERNIE · Jun 11, 2016

armybike said:
This country is on it's arse because of government after government failing to plan for the future and not from being in the EU.

QUOTE]

Reality check: this country isn't on its arse. It's the EU that's on the bare bones of its arse and it's milking us.

armybike · Jun 11, 2016

SIR ERNIE said:
Reality check: this country isn't on its arse. It's the EU that's on the bare bones of its arse and it's milking us.

Putting reality check at the front of your post doesn't make your subsequent comment correct.

Sumo the Micky Quinn · Jun 11, 2016

SIR ERNIE said:
control

Control What?
Borders & Immigration seem to be the hottest topic.

Borders?

The UK is already out of the Shengan Zone, so to get into the UK you have to prove who you are by getting your passport checked at border posts such as Airports, Seaports & Eurostar Rail terminals.

Immigration?
As a European citizen you are entitled to receive anything in your new country that your new fellow country person receives.
For Example: In Spain you cannot claim any money without first paying into the system of Spain and you cannot claim more than you have paid in.

Whereas the UK system is you can claim (pretty much ongoing) benefits as long as you have paid in for 16 weeks.
What the UK has proposed is that EU foreigners have to be in the UK for 4 years, before they can claim any benefits, which seems fair enough in the UK but outside the UK is deemed racist against the free movement of European citizens.

Plus the amount coming into the UK seems 50/50 from free movement EU citizens to outside EU citizens who have to apply for visas.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36382199 - "The most recent official figures put net migration from EU countries at 184,000 a year and non-EU at 188,000"

Living in the canaries we are outside the EU for Tax purposes, so you come on holiday here you are only entitled to Duty Free Allowances, unlike mainland Spain, (& other holiday destinations such France, Italy, Greece, Cyprus, Malta & Portugal), where you can fill your suitcase with as much fags and booze as you want.

Post from the UK, take between 1 week and 6 weeks, because it sits in Madrid and Las Palmas Customs offices for ages - exactly the same amount of time from China. Again due to being out of the European Tax Zone.
Currently I am waiting for my voting papers sent 3 1/2 weeks ago from North Warwickshire Borough Council.

Also if the UK pull out and in the future want to go back, one of the conditions of (re-)entering, is that the UK would lose the pound.

Prior to 1993 (When the EEC changed to the EU) I was a lorry driver, driving abroad was a nightmare, queuing at EVERY border crossing for hours waiting for your paper work to be checked, then having some 'bullshit' tax "No Pay - No Entry" added, trying different routes to avoid driving for 30 minutes through Luxembourg, but queuing for hours to get in and back out. Currency - driving through countries and having to find 20 Belgium centimes to go to the bog, only being able to change notes and being stuck with £5 worth of change from each country such as France, Belgium & Luxembourg before you got into Germany for example. Getting you goods cleared for custums could take several hours on one occasion it took me 3 days.

Driving through Europe today as a lorry driver is an absolute pleasure, virtually hassle free.

Macca · Jun 11, 2016

Safest bet is to vote stay, if the people vote to leave they will be punished by the sulking establishment

Marty · Jun 11, 2016

I'm voting out.

So much shit coming out of both camps. Sick of hearing about it.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (67 Viewers)

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