The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (226 Viewers)

skybluetony176 · Jun 24, 2018

SkyblueBazza said:
By now you will have noticed that the uncertainty around any significant change is disruptive. By the end it turns out to have been worth the disruption, or not as the case may be. You have sought & found more doom & gloom because that is what you wish for unless your way of thinking is adopted.

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I’ll give you the same reply I give to anyone who comes out with that. Tell me what the positives are? The standard reply seems to be we just need to stop being negative. Fine. Give me a reason to stop being negative. At which point silence.

I’m not going to be positive of the back of the empty rhetoric of we need to be positive and no substance as to why I should be. That’s just madness.

I’ve searched and searched for the real and tangible positives and have found two. We can sell twice as many pigs ears to China and oranges will be cheaper. First one only happens if we choose not to tag livestock on one ear as is the EU standard but the second could potentially be at the cost of quality, given that the country’s that we’ll most likely be importing oranges from minus the EU tariffs are west coast African countries where there is major health concerns about farming practices of using raw untreated sewage contaminated with industrial waste for irrigation. So it might not even happen yet so we could still end up buying our citrus fruits from EU countries only no longer tariff free as we’ll no longer be members of the EU so actually we could end up paying more.

skybluetony176 · Jun 24, 2018

scubasteve said:
So you like importing cheap labour that makes companies more profit, pretty much 21st century economic slave labour. And i thought you sat on the left. Wow.

No one is stealing them and bringing them here against their will. They come here of their own free will because it’s an opportunity to better themselves. Slaves didn’t profit from the work they did. Frankly it’s a crass, lazy and stupid comparison to make.

skybluetony176 · Jun 24, 2018

Astute said:
Shall we let them all live in your house? Because we don't have anywhere else for them.

Again a failing of successive governments. Plus that’s a stupid and ignorant response.

Grendel · Jun 24, 2018

martcov said:
Yes, but it is growing more slowly than other G7 economies. Why?

Because it’s come from a higher base. Most economies rarely see growth continuous at 3% for long periods - it’s absurd to claim Italy which was sliding to recession 4 years ago and grows at 1% from a pitiful base is more successful. France is a basket case so even a modest upturn will mean a higher percentage. It’s actual growth however isn’t as high over the period.

I’d be careful as well as you seem to be saying domestic economic policies are measured in terms of success or failure on this statistic.

Astute · Jun 24, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
I’ll give you the same reply I give to anyone who comes out with that. Tell me what the positives are? The standard reply seems to be we just need to stop being negative. Fine. Give me a reason to stop being negative. At which point silence.

I’m not going to be positive of the back of the empty rhetoric of we need to be positive and no substance as to why I should be. That’s just madness.

I’ve searched and searched for the real and tangible positives and have found two.

That is because you ignore the proper ones.

The pro EU lot got their numbers wrong as usual. They were wrong in just about every way. That is a major one. Yet you still quote them on what will happen next. That is a negative.

Record employment.

Record share prices.

Being able to make our own laws and regulations.

Being able to choose what skills we let live here.

Not having unvoted for people like Juncker say what happens here.

Having the £ and not the €. They want all countries of the EU to adopt the €.

Astute · Jun 24, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Again a failing of successive governments. Plus that’s a stupid and ignorant response.

So where are these millions of people goung to live when we already have millions of people without their own home.

How are they going to get treatment when you are not bothered that we don't have the right skills coming here to what we need so the situation worsens.

Yes I know that it is stupid to come out with the truth. Because as you say it is more important for cheap labour for companies to make more profit than anything else.

skybluetony176 · Jun 24, 2018

Astute said:
Here you go on with your normal long rants as usual that as usual misses the spot.

Yes all governments for a very long time have failed in many ways like with housing and such. But the problems have been exasperated by the open door policy where we can't choose who comes here to live. That means we can't choose the skills. The more unskilled that come here the more skilled workers we need. And we don't have enough skilled workers as it is.

The open door policy has allowed industries to grow and tax collections to grow with them. It’s governments that have failed. You know China no longer has a one child policy, why do you think that is? It’s because the economy is stagnating due to a lack of workforce. When an economy stagnates it’s disastrous for a country. Immigration of all skill levels has allowed our economy to boom, there’s actually far more logical arguments to say that this has happened because of EU membership than say we’re better of without EU membership. Governments should have made good from this boom and failed to and then failings started long before the banking crisis happened

Astute · Jun 24, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
The open door policy has allowed industries to grow and tax collections to grow with them. It’s governments that have failed. You know China no longer has a one child policy, why do you think that is? It’s because the economy is stagnating due to a lack of workforce. When an economy stagnates it’s disastrous for a country. Immigration of all skill levels has allowed our economy to boom, there’s actually far more logical arguments to say that this has happened because of EU membership than say we’re better of without EU membership. Governments should have made good from this boom and failed to and then failings started long before the banking crisis happened

And if we only listened to you everyone would think that the open door policy is perfect and doesn't create major problems.

So what skills levels have come here in proportion to unskilled?

Go on. Give us a laugh with your knowledge.

SkyblueBazza · Jun 24, 2018

martcov said:
Just numbers?

More details:

The Brexit effect: How the last two years have impacted the economy

Yes...just numbers. And you have sent me more numbers that I am already well aware of. Thanks for that.

Life for most of us is almost always a bit trying, rarely absolutely desperate. We cut back & struggle on. When your magic numbers are all good - does it make much difference to most of us? No...we relax a little.

The numbers, as said earlier, are down to the natural cycle of things & uncertainty over Brexit. So what is your point?

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Astute · Jun 24, 2018

SkyblueBazza said:
Yes...just numbers. And you have sent me more numbers that I am already well aware of. Thanks for that.

Life for most of us is almost always a bit trying, rarely absolutely desperate. We cut back & struggle on. When your magic numbers are all good - does it make much difference to most of us? No...we relax a little.

The numbers, as said earlier, are down to the natural cycle of things & uncertainty over Brexit. So what is your point?

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He doesn't have a point. Just like when we are told that the only G7 country known about is the one that the Euro benefits. The same country that the EU benefits.

skybluetony176 · Jun 24, 2018

Grendel said:
Because it’s come from a higher base. Most economies rarely see growth continuous at 3% for long periods - it’s absurd to claim Italy which was sliding to recession 4 years ago and grows at 1% from a pitiful base is more successful. France is a basket case so even a modest upturn will mean a higher percentage. It’s actual growth however isn’t as high over the period.

I’d be careful as well as you seem to be saying domestic economic policies are measured in terms of success or failure on this statistic.

He didn’t say Italy he said G7, that’s us Italy, Germany, France, Japan, Canada and the USA. You’re only comparing us to Italy to make your point. Why is that? How do we compare on balance to all G7 nations rather than just the one you’ve cherry picked to try and make a point? You do realise that when you cherry pick just one of those countries and dismiss the rest you’re actually strengthening Marts point and diminishing your own don’t you?

We also had our own recession in 2008 and our economy regressed around -4% IIRC in 2009 so relatively speaking we’re not exactly starting from a high base ourselves.

SkyblueBazza · Jun 24, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Just because the NHS is struggling to recruit doesn’t mean that cheap labour isn’t important to the economy. Fact is many sectors rely on cheap immigrant labour and can’t survive without them. You can keep ignoring that and keep spouting skilled labour all you like but if we stop letting in unskilled people the economy is going to take a hit at a time it can’t afford to.

There is plenty of money out there. Luxury car sales have gone up by 5% I heard on the news the other day.
The skilled workers required in the NHS are actually here aplenty...for example young GPs. Lots are trained up each year here. Then they choose not to join partnerships because (as a GP I know personally experiences) the workload is so high. So for example a 6 partner practice has gone down to 2 because 1 retired full-stop, 2 retired & are simply working as a salaried GP elsewhere 2 days a week (that means much less admin & regular working hours) & 1 has buckled under the work pressure & is now on long term sick. The 2 remainimg bow have to do ALL the work that 6 used to outside of actual clinics. My pal worked all week (clinics start at 8am...likely runs through until 11:30. Then he will do 5-6 house visits. Then have to deal with phone calls & immediate admin before starting again in clinic at 4...which will run over until 7-7:30. Then 3 days last week he worked until 11/11:30 clearing admin...AND Saturday morning & Sunday afternoon)...who would want to join that practice to work alongside him??? Answer nobody. The skills are taken abroad or the pay of salaried sessions are supplemented with other private work of varying sorts.
THOSE are the skills needed in the NHS. Not cheap labour to change beds in hospitals & care homes. We have loads of people here who will do that if we pay them a decent wage instead of paying the many tiers of management inflated salaries. 'The NHS is very complex' is the argument many cite. Yes it is...because it is set up to be so. And every government leaps in to tinker with it as soon as they gain power. Billions & billions that could be spent at the coalface on paying staff properly & educating, treating & caring for us patient. Instead it all goes to waste virtually every 4yrs!!!

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skybluetony176 · Jun 24, 2018

Astute said:
That is because you ignore the proper ones.

The pro EU lot got their numbers wrong as usual. They were wrong in just about every way. That is a major one. Yet you still quote them on what will happen next. That is a negative.

Record employment.

Record share prices.

Being able to make our own laws and regulations.

Being able to choose what skills we let live here.

Not having unvoted for people like Juncker say what happens here.

Having the £ and not the €. They want all countries of the EU to adopt the €.

Record employment is while we’re members of the EU not because we’ve left because we haven’t.

Record share prices is a consequence of the pound crashing since the referendum. The majority of companies in the FTSE 100 trade internationally and when they convert their international earnings into £GBP it artificially inflates their profit margins which inflates their share prices. Again this has all happened under membership of the EU we haven’t left yet so can’t be claimed as a benefit of leaving. If anything it’s a consequence of voting to leave.

We do make our own rules and regulations. It’s a complete myth to suggest that the EU do this all for us. We have laws and regulations different to other EU members as they do to us.

The job market is the determining factor in what skills come here and always will. That isn’t going to change because we leave the EU. The demographics of those workers might, the skill sets won’t though.

It’s MEP’s that are ultimately the decision makers not Junker. We elect our MEP’s. Another myth.

We could never be forced to take the Euro as an existing member. Another myth. Ironically if our children vote to take us back into the EU at a later date which is more than possible we’ll have to accept the Euro as part of that process. So basically if we do end up with the Euro in that scenario it will be the leave voters fault not the remainers.

skybluetony176 · Jun 24, 2018

Astute said:
So where are these millions of people goung to live when we already have millions of people without their own home.

How are they going to get treatment when you are not bothered that we don't have the right skills coming here to what we need so the situation worsens.

Yes I know that it is stupid to come out with the truth. Because as you say it is more important for cheap labour for companies to make more profit than anything else.

Without their own home. Not homeless. There’s a distinct difference. Ironically some of the skilled and unskilled workers we are desperately short of are those in the house building market. Nobody wants to do traditional apprenticeships anymore in the skills required to build houses and nobody wants to be their unskilled labourers.

Astute · Jun 24, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
He didn’t say Italy he said G7, that’s us Italy, Germany, France, Japan, Canada and the USA. You’re only comparing us to Italy to make your point. Why is that? How do we compare on balance to all G7 nations rather than just the one you’ve cherry picked to try and make a point? You do realise that when you cherry pick just one of those countries and dismiss the rest you’re actually strengthening Marts point and diminishing your own don’t you?

We also had our own recession in 2008 and our economy regressed around -4% IIRC in 2009 so relatively speaking we’re not exactly starting from a high base ourselves.

1, How has France been doing? After all they are our closest neighbours.

Our own recession in 2008? You are either clueless or won't admit to the truth. So which country didn't have a recession in 2008?

Astute · Jun 24, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Record employment is while we’re members of the EU not because we’ve left because we haven’t.

Record share prices is a consequence of the pound crashing since the referendum. The majority of companies in the FTSE 100 trade internationally and when they convert their international earnings into £GBP it artificially inflates their profit margins which inflates their share prices. Again this has all happened under membership of the EU we haven’t left yet so can’t be claimed as a benefit of leaving. If anything it’s a consequence of voting to leave.

We do make our own rules and regulations. It’s a complete myth to suggest that the EU do this all for us. We have laws and regulations different to other EU members as they do to us.

The job market is the determining factor in what skills come here and always will. That isn’t going to change because we leave the EU. The demographics of those workers might, the skill sets won’t though.

It’s MEP’s that are ultimately the decision makers not Junker. We elect our MEP’s. Another myth.

We could never be forced to take the Euro as an existing member. Another myth. Ironically if our children vote to take us back into the EU at a later date which is more than possible we’ll have to accept the Euro as part of that process. So basically if we do end up with the Euro in that scenario it will be the leave voters fault not the remainers.

Ah yeah. The EU doesn't make the rules up as they go along. Juncker doesn't want to take away the right to veto. I must remember to forget the truth when trying to have a debate with you.

Astute · Jun 24, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Without their own home. Not homeless. There’s a distinct difference. Ironically some of the skilled and unskilled workers we are desperately short of are those in the house building market. Nobody wants to do traditional apprenticeships anymore in the skills required to build houses and nobody wants to be their unskilled labourers.

Why don't you move into a hostel, hotel or similar then? It would still be somewhere to live although it isn't their own home.

So what has happened to the endless unskilled workers that you keep going on about that is such a bonus to the UK?

martcov · Jun 24, 2018

Astute said:
Just numbers?

So how come our economy is at record levels? And that is after being told we would crash and burn if there was a leave vote. And that is after Juncker and co trying to unsettle our economy as much as they can to try and make us stay in the EU.

So what happened to the house price crash? What happened to the jobless total soaring? What happened to the share price crash?

Yes these are the numbers that matter. We have our own currency. If we had the Euro we would be as fucked as many countries that use it. The £ is our safety net that will help us through the transition period.

The world economy is good and the Eurozone, which we trade with, is doing well. We ought to be doing even better. Germany is.

What has Juncker done to destabilise our economy? Our economy has been destabilised through Brexit and our lack of a Brexit plan.

Juncker is Head of The EU civil service and has naff all to do with our problems.

Our major problems begin in March 2019, if we don’t get a deal. At the moment we haven’t got a clue as to how to solve the Irish problem and we don’t have the resources or software to control our borders ( regulatory, tariffs, people). The promised customs software does not exist and the government is preparing contraflow systems in order to turn motorways to ports into lorry parks.

Potential trading partners such as India or the US, are laying down their terms to take advantage of our weak negotiating position.

We are leaving 40 EU agencies and recruiting large numbers of bureaucrats to replace the EU bureaucrats.

A total cock up. We are a joke and people all over Europe are laughing at us.

The approval of the EU has increased in countries throughout the EU since people have seen the chaos we have caused to ourselves through Brexit.

Banks and Wigmore have publicly admitted lying and leading people up the garden path to get the leave vote.

And people like you prefer to go on about one person, Juncker, than see where we are headed.

Madness.

martcov · Jun 24, 2018

Astute said:
Why don't you move into a hostel, hotel or similar then? It would still be somewhere to live although it isn't their own home.

So what has happened to the endless unskilled workers that you keep going on about that is such a bonus to the UK?

They are working and paying into the economy and, seeing as we have brimfull employment, they are not taking jobs - otherwise we would have unemployed Brits. They are doing jobs many Brits don’t want or need. Without them we would decrease our GDP and therefore our tax revenue.

martcov · Jun 24, 2018

Astute said:
Ah yeah. The EU doesn't make the rules up as they go along. Juncker doesn't want to take away the right to veto. I must remember to forget the truth when trying to have a debate with you.

All governments make rules as they go along. That is why we have governments.

Juncker wants to improve the decision making process. He doesn’t want to get rid of every veto.

And yes, you do like forgetting the truth.

Astute · Jun 24, 2018

martcov said:
The world economy is good and the Eurozone, which we trade with, is doing well. We ought to be doing even better. Germany is.

The EU and Euro is set up to benefit Germany. Do you disagree?

So how about mentioning how well the rest of the EU that uses the Euro are doing. And try being honest.

Astute · Jun 24, 2018

martcov said:
They are working and paying into the economy and, seeing as we have brimfull employment, they are not taking jobs - otherwise we would have unemployed Brits. They are doing jobs many Brits don’t want or need. Without them we would decrease our GDP and therefore our tax revenue.

And it is good that we have open borders but no homes for them to live in?

Astute · Jun 24, 2018

martcov said:
All governments make rules as they go along. That is why we have governments.

Juncker wants to improve the decision making process. He doesn’t want to get rid of every veto.

And yes, you do like forgetting the truth.

So what veto does he want to get rid of and which does ge want to keep?

Thanks for this. Needed a laugh.

martcov · Jun 24, 2018

Grendel said:
Because it’s come from a higher base. Most economies rarely see growth continuous at 3% for long periods - it’s absurd to claim Italy which was sliding to recession 4 years ago and grows at 1% from a pitiful base is more successful. France is a basket case so even a modest upturn will mean a higher percentage. It’s actual growth however isn’t as high over the period.

I’d be careful as well as you seem to be saying domestic economic policies are measured in terms of success or failure on this statistic.

Germany is coming from a higher base, but doesn’t have the same problems as the UK. If our GDP slows, our tax revenues will decline. In view of our Brexit divorce bill and our ( May‘s ) promise to find 20bn for the NHS in the same period as the divorce bill and the massive increase in the civil service, this could have a significant effect on the tax rate and NI contributions meaning less spending power for consumers. This in turn will result in a loss of jobs in retail and leisure. At the same time there will be less EU migration and jobs which will be created in the NHS by the 20bn will remain unfilled.

How did our Independence Day ( Farage‘s idea 2 years ago ) go btw? Any festivities in London? Thousands on the street celebrating Brexit and us sailing into a glorious future?

Brexit is coming on a bundle isn’t it?

martcov · Jun 24, 2018

Astute said:
So what veto does he want to get rid of and which does ge want to keep?

Thanks for this. Needed a laugh.

Read it up in google. I can’t be arsed to do your work for you.

martcov · Jun 24, 2018

Astute said:
And it is good that we have open borders but no homes for them to live in?

We have homes for the rich. Look at London. Building everywhere. Wembley as well. Might need a holiday home there seeing as we are there every year.

Who are „them“?

The use of „them“ and „they“ shows how far you have been indoctrinated. I say „EU migrants“ or „non EU migrants“, whereas Brexit fans use „them and us“.

Depersonalisation of the perceived enemy. Been done before.

Astute · Jun 24, 2018

martcov said:
Germany is coming from a higher base, but doesn’t have the same problems as the UK.

You are right. If Germany had their own currency it would be a lot stronger. And if Germany wasn't in the Euro it would be much weaker. This would benefit the other countries that are stuck with the Euro.

Grendel · Jun 24, 2018

martcov said:
We have homes for the rich. Look at London. Building everywhere. Wembley as well. Might need a holiday home there seeing as we are there every year.

Who are „them“?

The use of „them“ and „they“ shows how far you have been indoctrinated. I say „EU migrants“ or „non EU migrants“, whereas Brexit fans use „them and us“.

Depersonalisation of the perceived enemy. Been done before.

So the growth in nationalism and extremism has escalated higher in the Eu zone than here as evidenced by the ballot box and yet you blame Brexit.

Deny that and there is no point in debating with you

martcov · Jun 24, 2018

SkyblueBazza said:
Yes...just numbers. And you have sent me more numbers that I am already well aware of. Thanks for that.

Life for most of us is almost always a bit trying, rarely absolutely desperate. We cut back & struggle on. When your magic numbers are all good - does it make much difference to most of us? No...we relax a little.

The numbers, as said earlier, are down to the natural cycle of things & uncertainty over Brexit. So what is your point?

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My point is that we didn’t have to cut back and struggle on and didn’t have to have the uncertainty of Brexit. Yes the economy is cyclical, but we have brought the down turn forward through the uncertainty caused by Brexit.

You may like struggling on ( plucky Brit syndrome), but the leave voters should never have had the right to subject the rest of the country to their delusional pie in the sky Brexit project.

Astute · Jun 24, 2018

martcov said:
Read it up in google. I can’t be arsed to do your work for you.

Because the truth isn't good for what you are saying. If it was good you would google search all day long if there was a good point to be made on behalf of the EU.

Astute · Jun 24, 2018

martcov said:
We have homes for the rich. Look at London. Building everywhere. Wembley as well. Might need a holiday home there seeing as we are there every year.

Who are „them“?

The use of „them“ and „they“ shows how far you have been indoctrinated. I say „EU migrants“ or „non EU migrants“, whereas Brexit fans use „them and us“.

Depersonalisation of the perceived enemy. Been done before.

So you don't care if people don't have somewhere to live as long as you can make the EU look good?

Astute · Jun 24, 2018

martcov said:
My point is that we didn’t have to cut back and struggle on and didn’t have to have the uncertainty of Brexit. Yes the economy is cyclical, but we have brought the down turn forward through the uncertainty caused by Brexit.

You may like struggling on ( plucky Brit syndrome), but the leave voters should never have had the right to subject the rest of the country to their delusional pie in the sky Brexit project.

Cut back and struggle? You would love it if we were struggling. Just like those who said we would. But it hasn't happened.

martcov · Jun 24, 2018

Grendel said:
So the growth in nationalism and extremism has escalated higher in the Eu zone than here as evidenced by the ballot box and yet you blame Brexit.

Deny that and there is no point in debating with you

No, I blame Brexit for our problems. Marie me Pen dropped her Frexit plan and both governing Italian parties are neither leaving the EURO not the EU.

There is a huge disinformation campaign going on throughout what was called the „West“. Players involved include Bannon, Farage ( in cahoots with Bannon since 2014 ), Roger Stone, Assange, Putin, Arron Banks and so on. Coupled with these people and the conspiracy theorist YouTube channels and other Fake News sources ( Daily Express, Breitbart, Fria Taden etc ) a formidable „influencer“.

The real news cause of increased support for the right being the wars in the Middle East and the Mahgreb and their side effects, in particular terrorism and the refugee crisis.

martcov · Jun 24, 2018

Astute said:
Cut back and struggle? You would love it if we were struggling. Just like those who said we would. But it hasn't happened.

1 Yet, and 2 Skybluebazza mentioned struggling not me.

martcov · Jun 24, 2018

Astute said:
So you don't care if people don't have somewhere to live as long as you can make the EU look good?

Making things up again....

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (226 Viewers)

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