The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (260 Viewers)

martcov · Jul 28, 2018

Astute said:
Another lie I see.

Yesterday morning you was one of them that wanted to know what I don't like about the EU.

So it was my fault about what Selmayr has done. It is my fault that his grandfather got found guilty of war crimes and then got pardoned so he could start up the secret police in Germany.

Do we need to go into what happened when he was forced to retire because of his age so he took the German government to court so he could continue with his project?

Bloody hell. Only just touched the tip of the iceberg on this subject. And the more you try to gloss over it the more I will bring to light.

Me frothing at the mouth? Not at all.

Which Salmayr are you talking about? The one who is dead and has nothing to do with the present EU? Are you on about his iceberg?

I don’t get the relevance to us leaving the EU.. The grandfather certainly had an interesting CV, but it irrelevant to the present. It would be different if he had been a minister in Hitler’s cabinet and his granddaughter was leading a far right party... but you don’t seem to mention leading leader Farage speaking at Beatrix von Storch‘s AfD election rally. This thread is full of Faragisms, but you would rather talk about the symptoms of Brexit and not the cause. Where are the workable proposals that Davis had 2 years to prepare?

skybluetony176 · Jul 28, 2018

Sick Boy said:
There were even arrogant predictions that Ireland would inevitably end up following the UK out due to the success of Brexit,

More likely that Northern Ireland will leave the U.K. and unite with the south thus rejoining the EU. There’s certainly a hunger amongst my generation and younger in my own Protestant family for that to happen. The members of my family that now have an Irish passport is staggering, we’re from a border town and the majority of my family work in the south and/or rely on cross border trade for their living. MP’s like foster are dinosaurs who are anti peace process and relishs Brexit as she sees it as an opportunity to distance the north from the south. My family is from her constituency of Fermanagh and I may be wrong but certainly the feeling I get from my own family is that she can no longer count on their support based on the simple premise that they’re all Protestants so therefore in it together. Wouldn’t be at all surprised if her political career comes to an end at the next election.

Astute · Jul 28, 2018

martcov said:
Which Salmayr are you talking about? The one who is dead and has nothing to do with the present EU? Are you on about his iceberg?

I don’t get the relevance to us leaving the EU.. The grandfather certainly had an interesting CV, but it irrelevant to the present. It would be different if he had been a minister in Hitler’s cabinet and leading a far right party... but you don’t seem to mention leading leader Farage speaking at Beatrix von Storch‘s AfD election rally. This thread is full of Faragisms, but you would rather talk about the symptoms of Brexit and not the cause. Where are the workable proposals that Davis had 2 years to prepare?

Interesting CV? We can discuss it if you like. And how it led his grandson Martin on his path to the position that he made his own when it wasn't allowed by EU rules.

Just a shame it didn't go under the radar isn't it. Especially what Juncker did so he could get the position. We can talk about that if you like.

Astute · Jul 28, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
More likely that Northern Ireland will leave the U.K. and unite with the south thus rejoining the EU. There’s certainly a hunger amongst my generation and younger in my own Protestant family for that to happen. The members of my family that now have an Irish passport is staggering, we’re from a border town and the majority of my family work in the south and/or rely on cross border trade for their living. MP’s like foster are dinosaurs who are anti peace process and relishs Brexit as she sees it as an opportunity to distance the north from the south. My family is from her constituency of Fermanagh and I may be wrong but certainly the feeling I get from my own family is that she can no longer count on their support based on the simple premise that they’re all Protestants so therefore in it together. Wouldn’t be at all surprised if her political career comes to an end at the next election.

So why are you happy with the EU for making things so difficult?

Of course it is nothing to do with the EU. I can see your reply before you make it. And you are not the only one with family in Ireland.

martcov · Jul 28, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
More likely that Northern Ireland will leave the U.K. and unite with the south thus rejoining the EU. There’s certainly a hunger amongst my generation and younger in my own Protestant family for that to happen. The members of my family that now have an Irish passport is staggering, we’re from a border town and the majority of my family work in the south and/or rely on cross border trade for their living. MP’s like foster are dinosaurs who are anti peace process and relishs Brexit as she sees it as an opportunity to distance the north from the south. My family is from her constituency of Fermanagh and I may be wrong but certainly the feeling I get from my own family is that she can no longer count on their support based on the simple premise that they’re all Protestants so therefore in it together. Wouldn’t be at all surprised if her political career comes to an end at the next election.

Yes, if she can get a hard border and blame it on the EU or WTO she will be over the moon. Even though she denies that she wants a hard border. The enclave will last a little longer. But, that won’t happen, there won’t be a hard border and she will be left with egg on her face for not recognising that the majority want to remain in the EU, in Northern Ireland and in the Republic.

I can put my money on it, that no leave voter in England gave the Irish border a millisecond of thought when voting leave. That is the arrogance of a declining former imperial power. We’re leaving and we want a great deal, not interested in anyone else‘s views. Sad really.

Now people are getting worried that the EU has a guy who won’t roll over and have his tummy tickled by the UK. Reality is coming.

martcov · Jul 28, 2018

Astute said:
So why are you happy with the EU for making things so difficult?

Of course it is nothing to do with the EU. I can see your reply before you make it. And you are not the only one with family in Ireland.

I have family in Ireland and they are dreading this, having children and their partners in the North. They never went to the North before the GFA. Having this put on the line because of the ignorance of UK voters is a joke. And, yes I will also agree that the border problems did not exist before 17,4 people, the most of whom were not in the slightest interested in the result of their vote on people in Ireland, voted for Brexit. It is another Brexit problem to be solved by the people who created it. The British government who are tied to a weird anti republican party. Enjoy your Brexit.

skybluetony176 · Jul 28, 2018

Astute said:
So why are you happy with the EU for making things so difficult?

Of course it is nothing to do with the EU. I can see your reply before you make it. And you are not the only one with family in Ireland.

How did the EU make Foster anti peace. The EU didn’t vote to expel the U.K. the U.K. decided to leave the EU. It’s Foster who won’t allow the customs border to move to the channel, she wants Northern Ireland to be equal with the rest of the U.K. Unless it’s something like women’s right to choose of course and then she wants Northern Ireland to be different. Another reason I can see Foster loosing votes. She’s a dinosaur and no matter how hard you try you can’t blame the EU for that. Brexit is calling her and others like her out though. You only have to look at how forward thinking politicians are in the south to realise that, young and not so young voters in the north are crying out for the political environment the south enjoys.

Astute · Jul 28, 2018

martcov said:
Now people are getting worried that the EU has a guy who won’t roll over and have his tummy tickled by the UK. Reality is coming.

Here we go again.

You know Selmayr has been the puppet master. How much more evidence do you need?

Why else do you think he has endangered any harmony in the EU to make sure he gets what he wants?

But of course you don't want to be truthful. Because it doesn't look good. Not even to the most pro EU people.

Astute · Jul 28, 2018

martcov said:
I have family in Ireland and they are dreading this, having children and their partners in the North. They never went to the North before the GFA. Having this put on the line because of the ignorance of UK voters is a joke. And, yes I will also agree that the border problems did not exist before 17,4 people, the most of whom were not in the slightest interested in the result of their vote on people in Ireland, voted for Brexit. It is another Brexit problem to be solved by the people who created it. The British government who are tied to a weird anti republican party. Enjoy your Brexit.

Yes fully the fault of leave voters and nothing to do with the EU making it as difficult as they can to try and make us stay in the EU.

Sky Blue Pete · Jul 28, 2018

Astute said:
Here we go again.

You know Selmayr has been the puppet master. How much more evidence do you need?

Why else do you think he has endangered any harmony in the EU to make sure he gets what he wants?

But of course you don't want to be truthful. Because it doesn't look good. Not even to the most pro EU people.

What does he want then astute?

You do realise we no longer have an empire that can rape and pillage its way through the world don’t you? We are utterly dependent on the global community.

Astute · Jul 28, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
How did the EU make Foster anti peace. The EU didn’t vote to expel the U.K. the U.K. decided to leave the EU. It’s Foster who won’t allow the customs border to move to the channel, she wants Northern Ireland to be equal with the rest of the U.K. Unless it’s something like women’s right to choose of course and then she wants Northern Ireland to be different. Another reason I can see Foster loosing votes. She’s a dinosaur and no matter how hard you try you can’t blame the EU for that. Brexit is calling her and others like her out though. You only have to look at how forward thinking politicians are in the south to realise that, young and not so young voters in the north are crying out for the political environment the south enjoys.

So the EU has done something to make the process easy?

This is a joke. We all known the truth.

Yes we voted leave. Now they are doing what they can to force us to stay. But you will also disagree with this.

Crooked dealings from a crooked organisation.

martcov · Jul 28, 2018

Astute said:
Here we go again.

You know Selmayr has been the puppet master. How much more evidence do you need?

Why else do you think he has endangered any harmony in the EU to make sure he gets what he wants?

But of course you don't want to be truthful. Because it doesn't look good. Not even to the most pro EU people.

Salmayr has worked his way up without the Brexit media noticing him... until now... we are supposed to get an agreement by October.. up until now we don’t have a workable proposal to put on teacher‘s desk. Not done our homework under Davis. Now it’s teacher that is evil because he is going to cane us for not doing our homework.

Yes, the appointment of Salmayr was weird, but has been allowed to stand. Plenty of reform work to be done there.

The reality stays the same. We haven’t got a workable proposal on things like the Irish border.

You can discuss Salmayr‘s grandfather all you want, but what has that got to do with the basic problem? We don’t have workable proposals and he is not going to let us off the hook.

Where are the leavers? Boris and Davis have done a runner. Rees Mogg is biding his time until May falls. Farage is a celebrity on Fox News... „The Leader of Brexit“ according to Hannity. Liam Fox is trying to get us into the Pacific trading bloc. But which leaver is going to do the deal? None. It’s up to May and Oli Robbins to sort the mess out. It is a joke. Let’s go back to Juncker and Salmayr....if it makes you feel better....

martcov · Jul 28, 2018

Astute said:
So the EU has done something to make the process easy?

This is a joke. We all known the truth.

Yes we voted leave. Now they are doing what they can to force us to stay. But you will also disagree with this.

Crooked dealings from a crooked organisation.

We want to leave. We want a future trading relationship. We are not having our cake and eating it.

Simple really. Put the workable proposals on the table and we are all happy.

Astute · Jul 28, 2018

Sky Blue Pete said:
What does he want then astute?

You do realise we no longer have an empire that can rape and pillage its way through the world don’t you? We are utterly dependent on the global community.

Correct.

Global. The EU is a small part of it. But we have not been able to freely trade with the rest of the world for many years since we were engineered into the EU.

He wants our money. Germany will have to cover a lot of what we won't put in after leaving. He wants us to stay in whatever the cost. We are still one of the biggest economies in the world. We will be a massive loss to the EU. And an even bigger loss to Germany.

Why else do you think we have to come out with a plan with no guidance? It makes it impossible to make a deal as there will always be something wrong.

Astute · Jul 28, 2018

martcov said:
Salmayr has worked his way up without the Brexit media noticing him... until now... we are supposed to get an agreement by October.. up until now we don’t have a workable proposal to put on teacher‘s desk. Not done our homework under Davis. Now it’s teacher that is evil because he is going to cane us for not doing our homework.

Yes, the appointment of Salmayr was weird, but has been allowed to stand. Plenty of reform work to be done there.

The reality stays the same. We haven’t got a workable proposal on things like the Irish border.

You can discuss Salmayr‘s grandfather all you want, but what has that got to do with the basic problem? We don’t have workable proposals and he is not going to let us off the hook.

Where are the leavers? Boris and Davis have done a runner. Rees Mogg is biding his time until May falls. Farage is a celebrity on Fox News... „The Leader of Brexit“ according to Hannity. Liam Fox is trying to get us into the Pacific trading bloc. But which leaver is going to do the deal? None. It’s up to May and Oli Robbins to sort the mess out. It is a joke. Let’s go back to Juncker and Salmayr....if it makes you feel better....

He has been the puppet master. He got Juncker his position. He has always guided Juncker.

Look what has happened since he knew he needed an even bigger say. He got Juncker to do what was needed to bypass EU rules to get his present position that he shouldn't have got and that the majority don't want him to have.

martcov · Jul 28, 2018

Astute said:
Here we go again.

You know Selmayr has been the puppet master. How much more evidence do you need?

Why else do you think he has endangered any harmony in the EU to make sure he gets what he wants?

But of course you don't want to be truthful. Because it doesn't look good. Not even to the most pro EU people.

Have I disputed his history? No. Or his grandfather‘s? No. Am I bothered about his grandfather? No. Do I think the appointment was out of order? Yes, but it has been upheld.

Now, back to the real problem... where are the workable proposals?

Astute · Jul 28, 2018

martcov said:
We want to leave. We want a future trading relationship. We are not having our cake and eating it.

Simple really. Put the workable proposals on the table and we are all happy.

So what are the guidelines?

Oh I forgot there isn't any.

skybluetony176 · Jul 28, 2018

Astute said:
So the EU has done something to make the process easy?

This is a joke. We all known the truth.

Yes we voted leave. Now they are doing what they can to force us to stay. But you will also disagree with this.

Crooked dealings from a crooked organisation.

Again with the faux outrage that the EU are fighting there own corner. They were always going to in this scenario. A lot of the leave campaign was built on the EU having that very same protectionist quality and now surprised that they’re using it. It’s a Tommy Robinson playing the victim trick. You fall for it all you like. I was expecting it before the referendum and am not surprised to see it now. Leave was expecting before the referendum yet the majority of supporters now seem to be in shock at this. Really?

Astute · Jul 28, 2018

martcov said:
Have I disputed his history? No. Or his grandfather‘s? No. Am I bothered about his grandfather? No. Do I think the appointment was out of order? Yes, but it has been upheld.

Now, back to the real problem... where are the workable proposals?

Upheld?

Overstatement of the year. He can't be removed from the job. Juncker said he would resign if they took it any further. They knew that it all could collapse if it happened.

All that has happened is they agreed it must never happen again.

Yet another EU whitewash.

At least you now admit that the whole episode is wrong.

Astute · Jul 28, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Again with the faux outrage that the EU are fighting there own corner. They always were in this scenario. A lot of the leave campaign was built on the EU having that very same protectionist quality and now surprised that they’re using it. It’s a Tommy Robinson playing the victim trick. You fall for it all you like. I was expecting before the referendum and am not surprised to see it now. Leave was expecting before the referendum yet the majority of supporters now seem to be in shock at this. Really?

So what are your thoughts of Selmayr and how he got his position?

martcov · Jul 28, 2018

Astute said:
Correct.

Global. The EU is a small part of it. But we have not been able to freely trade with the rest of the world for many years since we were engineered into the EU.

He wants our money. Germany will have to cover a lot of what we won't put in after leaving. He wants us to stay in whatever the cost. We are still one of the biggest economies in the world. We will be a massive loss to the EU. And an even bigger loss to Germany.

Why else do you think we have to come out with a plan with no guidance? It makes it impossible to make a deal as there will always be something wrong.

We trade with 27 EU countries and all those who have some form of trade agreements with the EU. We trade with 27 other countries on WTO basis.

That is a very large portion of the world.

Our net contribution is 10bn. The Germans have budgeted in 3,5bn towards any loss of Brexit contributions as their share.

The German spending budget was 344 bn. The 3,5bn extra is annoying, but not earth shattering.

The EU is more than just a couple of billion in the bigger picture. The German extra contribution is really irrelevant in the discussion of the future of the EU.

It is a Faragism and comes under the „they need us more than we need them“ false argument.

martcov · Jul 28, 2018

Astute said:
Upheld?

Overstatement of the year. He can't be removed from the job. Juncker said he would resign if they took it any further. They knew that it all could collapse if it happened.

All that has happened is they agreed it must never happen again.

Yet another EU whitewash.

At least you now admit that the whole episode is wrong.

I said it shouldn’t have happened and that reform was necessary. You say that they have agreed it should never happen again and are taking measures to prevent it happening again. Exactly what I said I wanted to happen. What do I have to admit to?

skybluetony176 · Jul 28, 2018

Astute said:
So what are your thoughts of Selmayr and how he got his position?

I couldn’t give a flying fuck. It’s irrelevant, which is why you’re concentrating on him. It wouldn’t matter who was in his position they’d still be doing the same things. The EU’s position has always been clear and united on brexit. Being out the EU can never be as good as being in the EU. Junker, Barnier and all were saying this before the referendum and have stuck to this since. Why you’re surprised by this is beyond me. Maybe you thought they were lying, maybe joking and not to be taken seriously and the likes of Boris, Davis and co were being truthful, straight and to be taken seriously when saying these will be the easiest negotiations in history, they need us more than we need them etc.

This is the reality of brexit and it always was going to be. Deal with it.

Grendel · Jul 28, 2018

Why are we talking about this guy anyway - he’s appointment was dodgy (surprise suprise) and even pro Eu articles suggest he is out his depth

Astute · Jul 28, 2018

martcov said:
We trade with 27 EU countries and all those who have some form of trade agreements with the EU. We trade with 27 other countries on WTO basis.

That is a very large portion of the world.

Our net contribution is 10bn. The Germans have budgeted in 3,5bn towards any loss of Brexit contributions as their share.

The German spending budget was 344 bn. The 3,5bn extra is annoying, but not earth shattering.

The EU is more than just a couple of billion in the bigger picture. The German extra contribution is really irrelevant in the discussion of the future of the EU.

It is a Faragism and comes under the „they need us more than we need them“ false argument.

Oh yes Farage :smuggrin:

So if it means nothing as you make out why can't there be a trade deal like other countries around the world have with the EU?

Annoying?

As annoying as Selmayr bypassing EU rules and regulations to get his position?

So why is it that when something happens in or to the EU that you don't like it is only annoying?

Astute · Jul 28, 2018

martcov said:
I said it shouldn’t have happened and that reform was necessary. You say that they have agreed it should never happen again and are taking measures to prevent it happening again. Exactly what I said I wanted to happen. What do I have to admit to?

Yet you blame anyone but those who have anything to do with the EU for there not being a deal.

Yet those who break the EU rules are only counted as an annoyance.

It was an illegal move that nothing will be done about.

SkyblueBazza · Jul 28, 2018

Sick Boy said:
It's been great to see the emergence of about 10 EU flags alongside the proudly flown Sicilian flag on the seafront here in San Vito Lo Capo. The last time I came here just after the referendum I seem to recall there being only the one.

Considering Italy is about to join France, Austria & Holland in following Britain out of the EU, I'd have thought they'd have been burnt by now.

How is official administrators decisions to fly whatever flag they feel inclined ANY indication of what everyday memebrs of their public think or want?
Flying the EU flag over eastablishment buildings & corporations didn't seem to cut the mustard in the UK did it?

As for these other countries joining the UK & departing...I think that is entierly up to them. Some think as successful Brexit will encourage others to follow suit - that is entierly possible, but not a given!

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SkyblueBazza · Jul 28, 2018

Sick Boy said:
It was supposed to have already happened in 3 other countries but that doesn't seem to have happened.

There were even arrogant predictions that Ireland would inevitably end up following the UK out due to the success of Brexit, and I recall seeing an article on a Conservative site calling for it to do so to solve the border issue. Farage even went over and campaigned for it earlier this year.

A recent survey returned saying that 92% think Ireland should remain in the EU.

Neither 5Star or La Lega campaigned on leaving the EU, BTW. There is likely to be a proportion of long-term La Lega Nord voters who'd want to leave it but they want to setup their own country entirely.

Silly argument imo. How many of those countries have given their people a referendum since our decision to leave? And even if they did tomorrow - there is no known outcome as yet from Brexit. Others might well be watching with interest, or Brexit might actually bond those left closer - either way...we're leaving

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SkyblueBazza · Jul 28, 2018

Sick Boy said:
There were plenty of posts on here and predictions in the press about the domino effect and voters in those 3 countries opting for those wishing to leave the EU.

The point is - they were predictions...& I think we have a wait & see situation. Some might just like the deal we get & claim that it sets a justifiable argument for a legal precedent. Others may wait to see how the UK fares over 5, 10 or 25yrs post Brexit before deciding it to be a good thing

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martcov · Jul 28, 2018

Astute said:
Yet you blame anyone but those who have anything to do with the EU for there not being a deal.

Yet those who break the EU rules are only counted as an annoyance.

It was an illegal move that nothing will be done about.

Are you really classifying Brexit with a double promotion in the EU commission? Brexit is a country leaving the biggest trading bloc in the world and is absolutely no comparison with political intrigues in the EU.

Do you think the EU should break their rules for a country that is leaving based on the promotion of an official and on his grandfather‘s career record?

martcov · Jul 28, 2018

SkyblueBazza said:
The point is - they were predictions...& I think we have a wait & see situation. Some might just like the deal we get & claim that it sets a justifiable argument for a legal precedent. Others may wait to see how the UK fares over 5, 10 or 25yrs post Brexit before deciding it to be a good thing

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Or they might just get on with their own lives and be not really bothered about the fate of the UK. Most have seen the problems caused by Brexit and prefer to stay in and reform the EU. That is even Bannon’s strategy.

SkyblueBazza · Jul 28, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
I couldn’t give a flying fuck. It’s irrelevant, which is why you’re concentrating on him. It wouldn’t matter who was in his position they’d still be doing the same things. The EU’s position has always been clear and united on brexit. Being out the EU can never be as good as being in the EU. Junker, Barnier and all were saying this before the referendum and have stuck to this since. Why you’re surprised by this is beyond me. Maybe you thought they were lying, maybe joking and not to be taken seriously and the likes of Boris, Davis and co were being truthful, straight and to be taken seriously when saying these will be the easiest negotiations in history, they need us more than we need them etc.

This is the reality of brexit and it always was going to be. Deal with it.

So a member of a Christian (alarm bells!) Democratic Political party with centre-right agenda...undemocratically gains a position to steer a supposedly democratic EU in reaching a deal over Brexit.

Yes...I see your point - irrelevant indeed!

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Astute · Jul 28, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
I couldn’t give a flying fuck. It’s irrelevant, which is why you’re concentrating on him. It wouldn’t matter who was in his position they’d still be doing the same things. The EU’s position has always been clear and united on brexit. Being out the EU can never be as good as being in the EU. Junker, Barnier and all were saying this before the referendum and have stuck to this since. Why you’re surprised by this is beyond me. Maybe you thought they were lying, maybe joking and not to be taken seriously and the likes of Boris, Davis and co were being truthful, straight and to be taken seriously when saying these will be the easiest negotiations in history, they need us more than we need them etc.

This is the reality of brexit and it always was going to be. Deal with it.

Its irrelevant?

Just shows everyone that you don't have a clue or you can't make up bullshit that is even slightly believable concerning Selmayr.

I suppose it doesn't even show how corrupt the EU system is.

And I suppose it is irrelevant that he is anti UK and doesn't want us to have any sort of deal at all.

But I suppose you can blame those who voted leave more than those who are corrupt. Yet you deny that the EU system being corrupt isn't in any way a reason for leaving.

Says it all to me.

Astute · Jul 28, 2018

martcov said:
Are you really classifying Brexit with a double promotion in the EU commission? Brexit is a country leaving the biggest trading bloc in the world and is absolutely no comparison with political intrigues in the EU.

Do you think the EU should break their rules for a country that is leaving based on the promotion of an official and on his grandfather‘s career record?

They broke their rules to put Selmayr in the position.

So what is your point?

Because the UK hasn't broke any rules. And there are no rules being broken for us asking for a deal that would benefit all involved.

But you know this.

Astute · Jul 28, 2018

martcov said:
Or they might just get on with their own lives and be not really bothered about the fate of the UK. Most have seen the problems caused by Brexit and prefer to stay in and reform the EU. That is even Bannon’s strategy.

Reform the EU?

Are you having a laugh. They can't even keep to their own rules and regulations.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (260 Viewers)

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