The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (117 Viewers)

martcov · Sep 10, 2018

dutchman said:
Anything which hastens the end of the EU is good.

Went well for Holland last time Germany had National Socialism didn’t it? Although Holland did have a lot of collaboration. The older generation used to check if I was one of de Moffen when I was visiting friends. A lot were not happy about their German neighbours rolling their tanks over the borders. The general opinion after the war was that European cooperation was preferable to every country for itself. Surprised that after seeing the results of Nazism that a Dutchman would prefer that to the EU.

martcov · Sep 10, 2018

dutchman said:
German intelligence chief at odds with Angela Merkel as he says no evidence foreigners were attacked in Chemnitz

The head of Germany’s domestic intelligence service set off a major political row on Friday when he directly contradicted Angela Merkel over last week’s far-Right protests in Chemnitz.

Hans-Georg Maassen said he had seen was no evidence to support claims neo-Nazis had hunted foreigners through the streets during the protests.

That put him at odds with Mrs Merkel, the German chancellor, who spoke of video footage clearly showing “targetted harassment” and “hate on the streets”.

Video which appears to show non-Germans being attacked during the protests has been widely circulated on social media. But Mr Maassen said he believed the video could be a fake distributed as “targetted misinformation”.

Still waiting for the Maaßen statement to be analyzed by Seehofer. But other CDU politicians are already playing with the words used by Maaßen. Saying it wasn‘t a „mob chase“ of lefties and migrants. WTF was it then? In other words trying to bend the words. Others mock that.

From the Spiegel:

“In Chemnitz haben die rechten Horden gerufen: "Schlagt den Roten die Schädeldecke ein" und "Wir sind die Fans - Adolf-Hitler-Hooligans", aber was den Gebrauch des Wortes "Hetzjagd" angeht, wollen wir bitte schön sorgfältig sein. Tatsächlich, die Behauptung, die Nazis hätten früher die Juden vergast, trifft so nicht zu. Manche wurden auch erschossen“

We should be careful which words we use to describe chasing and kicking random victims, but the Nazis can just say what the hell they want. It’s like saying „the Nazis gassed the Jews“ is not true as some were shot.

skybluetony176 · Sep 10, 2018

dutchman said:
Anything which hastens the end of the EU is good.

I’m hoping you’re joking.

fernandopartridge · Sep 10, 2018

martcov said:
Went well for Holland last time Germany had National Socialism didn’t it? Although Holland did have a lot of collaboration. The older generation used to check if I was one of de Moffen when I was visiting friends. A lot were not happy about their German neighbours rolling their tanks over the borders. The general opinion after the war was that European cooperation was preferable to every country for itself. Surprised that after seeing the results of Nazism that a Dutchman would prefer that to the EU.

The EU is not the only way in which countries can collaborate

dutchman · Sep 10, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
I’m hoping you’re joking.

Hardly, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

skybluetony176 · Sep 10, 2018

dutchman said:
Hardly, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

Not sure what that’s supposed to mean. So just to be clear you’re saying that you’d rather see the rise of Nazism in Europe than a continuation of the EU?

dutchman · Sep 10, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Not sure what that’s supposed to mean.

It's self-explanatory, ANYONE opposed to the EU is my ally.

skybluetony176 · Sep 10, 2018

dutchman said:
It's self-explanatory, ANYONE opposed to the EU is my ally.

ISIS?

dutchman · Sep 10, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
ISIS?

ANYONE!

dutchman · Sep 10, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
So just to be clear you’re saying that you’d rather see the rise of Nazism in Europe than a continuation of the EU?

It was contimuation of the EU which led to the rise of nationalism in member states, not the other way around.

skybluetony176 · Sep 10, 2018

dutchman said:
ANYONE!

You’ve got to be on the wind up.

martcov · Sep 10, 2018

fernandopartridge said:
The EU is not the only way in which countries can collaborate

The EU is the most successful international collaboration yet. Putting up borders, using their own currencies, not allowing free movement of goods, people or capital is not collaborating. That is what the right wingers propose. The Nazis in Chemnitz have made it quite clear what their alternative is. Free, Social and National. Looking after Germans first and protectionism. Plus the white race standing against black and brown people who are, according to them, a majority of 8 billion against 3 or 400000 whites.

Surprised that you don’t get what is actually going on. It’s not just about alleged faults in the EU. That is a distraction. The end game is worse than Trumpism, or even Bannon’s vision of smashing the existing liberal democratic system and replacing it with white nationalism, including white states in collaboration with each other.

The AfD marched shoulder to shoulder with Thürgida last week who just called for a race war based on an eye for an eye. Dutchman thinks that anything that ends the EU is good.

I beg to differ.

Grendel · Sep 10, 2018

martcov said:
The EU is the most successful international collaboration yet. Putting up borders, using their own currencies, not allowing free movement of goods, people or capital is not collaborating. That is what the right wingers propose. The Nazis in Chemnitz have made it quite clear what their alternative is. Free, Social and National. Looking after Germans first and protectionism. Plus the white race standing against black and brown people who are, according to them, a majority of 8 billion against 3 or 400000 whites.

Surprised that you don’t get what is actually going on. It’s not just about alleged faults in the EU. That is a distraction. The end game is worse than Trumpism, or even Bannon’s vision of smashing the existing liberal democratic system and replacing it with white nationalism, including white states in collaboration with each other.

The AfD marched shoulder to shoulder with Thürgida last week who just called for a race war based on an eye for an eye. Dutchman thinks that anything that ends the EU is good.

I beg to differ.

Do you honestly, genuinely believe the rise in extremism has nothing to do with the political union of the EU and removal of individual state ability to have full control of their political and fiscal ideology?

skybluetony176 · Sep 10, 2018

Grendel said:
Do you honestly, genuinely believe the rise in extremism has nothing to do with the political union of the EU and removal of individual state ability to have full control of their political and fiscal ideology?

If you look at what’s happening in Germany and Sweden it has more to do with immigration from Muslim countries than anything else. Immigration both countries invited without anything to do with the EU.

Grendel · Sep 10, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
If you look at what’s happening in Germany and Sweden it has more to do with immigration from Muslim countries than anything else. Immigration both countries invited without anything to do with the EU.

The question still applies

skybluetony176 · Sep 10, 2018

Grendel said:
The question still applies

It may well do but it clearly isn’t the overriding factor and by a good distance.

martcov · Sep 10, 2018

dutchman said:
Hardly, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

Grendel said:
Do you honestly, genuinely believe the rise in extremism has nothing to do with the political union of the EU and removal of individual state ability to have full control of their political and fiscal ideology?

Yes. For years no one really bothered with the EU. Nazis always existed. Sometimes their support grew e.g. 70‘s National Front because of the Ugandan Asians, then when Thatcher tightened colonial immigration, it faded again. In Germany we had 80s Republikaner and DVU, but they faded away. NPD came and went a couple of times and has now virtually vanished because of AfD taking their membership. The EU plodded on, evolving all the time, and wasn’t their main target. That was immigrants and the „left“. The deciding impulse this time ( from 2008 ) is a combination of social media, YouTube etc. opening up propaganda channels for then fringe parties, the 2008 economic collapse and resulting depression ( the poor and weak paying a high price ) , including the national debt crises in weaker economies... and then the mass migration from Syria and the Mahgreb. All in all a row of disasters, not really all the fault of the EU, which actually tried to help, but a very convenient coincidence to blame everything on a Supra National organisation hated by the extreme right, and, even better, migrants from another culture with a different skin colour. A them, the invaders, and us, the plucky whites fighting the brown and black hordes ( as propagated this week by Thürgida ). The EU didn’t cause this at all. Non EU immigration in places like France and Belgium, which foster some terrorism, has nothing to do with EU policy. Our home grown terrorists who are used as examples of Muslims, have nothing to do with the EU. It is the right wing nationalists who are winding people up against the EU. We have done well out of the EU and have never had so many people in employment. We gain nothing by leaving, but the far right does. It has fulfilled it’s dream of a right wing nation state. God help the rest of the population.

martcov · Sep 10, 2018

Grendel said:
The question still applies

No it doesn’t. The right wing in the UK claims that it is about EU internal borders and Currency. It isn’t in Germany. It is about refugees and a perceived lack of security. The EU is hardly mentioned by the Nazis, apart from strengthening the external border. They want to beat up refugees and burn their homes down to encourage them to leave and not come back, or that the government forcibly repatriates them.

Germany first.. but there are no anti EU demonstrations. Just anti non EU immigration.

Grendel · Sep 10, 2018

martcov said:
No it doesn’t. The right wing in the UK claims that it is about EU internal borders and Currency. It isn’t in Germany. It is about refugees and a perceived lack of security. The EU is hardly mentioned by the Nazis, apart from strengthening the external border. They want to beat up refugees and burn their homes down to encourage them to leave and not come back, or that the government forcibly repatriates them.

Germany first.. but there are no anti EU demonstrations. Just anti non EU immigration.

So the AFD believes in freedom of movement as defined by the EU?

fernandopartridge · Sep 10, 2018

martcov said:
The EU is the most successful international collaboration yet. Putting up borders, using their own currencies, not allowing free movement of goods, people or capital is not collaborating. That is what the right wingers propose. The Nazis in Chemnitz have made it quite clear what their alternative is. Free, Social and National. Looking after Germans first and protectionism. Plus the white race standing against black and brown people who are, according to them, a majority of 8 billion against 3 or 400000 whites.

Surprised that you don’t get what is actually going on. It’s not just about alleged faults in the EU. That is a distraction. The end game is worse than Trumpism, or even Bannon’s vision of smashing the existing liberal democratic system and replacing it with white nationalism, including white states in collaboration with each other.

The AfD marched shoulder to shoulder with Thürgida last week who just called for a race war based on an eye for an eye. Dutchman thinks that anything that ends the EU is good.

I beg to differ.

You're getting hysterical martcov.

martcov · Sep 11, 2018

fernandopartridge said:
You're getting hysterical martcov.

Yes. With good reason. Nazis are calling for National Socialism now and a poster agreed that that is good if it brings the EU down. Never dreamed I would be in this sort of debate.

martcov · Sep 11, 2018

Grendel said:
So the AFD believes in freedom of movement as defined by the EU?

AfD is against non EU migrants. I have not heard them saying anything against internal free movement as defined by the EU.

martcov · Sep 11, 2018

Grendel said:
So the AFD believes in freedom of movement as defined by the EU?

As far as I know. As I say, I haven’t heard their opinion on that.

Actually, when I was in Leipzig 2016, the taxi driver and one of my staff invited me to the Legida ( a branch of Pegida, Thürgida who AfD are now marching with ). They wanted me there. I presume it wasn’t to chase me through the streets and beat me up.

Although I was beaten up and robbed by Nazi skinheads in Rostock in 1991, but that was more anti Wessis than anti UK and there was a financial motive. There were also German victims in the hospital with me in Rostock.

I don’t see Nazi thugs or AfD as suitable „friends“ to bring the EU down. Farage gave speeches at campaign rallies in the AfD electoral campaign. Takes all sorts I suppose.

Another good reason for hating the „irrelevant“ ( Grendel quote ) Farage. But, perhaps you too should be beaten up by Nazis to appreciate the dangers? It helps.

Astute · Sep 11, 2018

martcov said:
No messing about now. They are saying „National Socialism now“ and chanting „Free, Social and National“.

This is what follows when parties like AfD start becoming popular. The tabus are broken and the language of debate changes. The Thürgida ( off shoot of Tommy‘s mate‘s Pegida ) leaders are calling for an for an eye for an eye. Which means people of colour are going to get a kicking whether they have attacked a German or not.
German far-right rally hears calls for violence against foreigners - CNN

You can't have it both ways Mart.

You say that open borders are great. Only a small price to pay for the occasional murder and everything else that comes with it.

But Europe is now seen as the place to go. Get to any country in the EU and then you can go where you want. The full truth isn't known to the majority who want to come here. This creates lots of problems. And all this while we have Muslim fanatics that see us as targets. Before you say it I know the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful. But it makes it easy for the few to travel and cause atrocities.

So now we have open borders but not where immigrants get into Europe.

I would be happy to show my passport at borders if it would make the situation better. But word won't get to those who want to come here expecting a pot of gold.

Astute · Sep 11, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
If you look at what’s happening in Germany and Sweden it has more to do with immigration from Muslim countries than anything else. Immigration both countries invited without anything to do with the EU.

So Germany and Sweden asked Muslim countries to send them their people?

How about the truth?

Open borders made the problem. Then of course they wanted to go to the richer countries. These include Germany and Sweden. So they took many. But now they won't take any more as they never thought of the consequences.

Captain Dart · Sep 11, 2018

Project fear is struggling
UK unemployment falls by 55,000

skybluetony176 · Sep 11, 2018

Astute said:
So Germany and Sweden asked Muslim countries to send them their people?

How about the truth?

Open borders made the problem. Then of course they wanted to go to the richer countries. These include Germany and Sweden. So they took many. But now they won't take any more as they never thought of the consequences.

Sweden has an open door policy for refugees. Nothing to do with the EU. Merkels public open invite to the refugees is well documented. You could actually argue she caused the refugee crisis in Europe if you really wanted to talk about the truth. Again nothing to do with the EU. We’ve taken hardly any in comparison to Sweden and Germany. Again nothing to do with the EU. All down to domestic policies.

skybluetony176 · Sep 11, 2018

Captain Dart said:
Project fear is struggling
UK unemployment falls by 55,000

When you say project fear I assume that you’re talking about the myth that free movement of people in the EU means Eastern Europeans are stealing our jobs. Those figures just confirm that there is enough jobs to go around with huge benefit to the U.K. economy and open borders within the EU isn’t the issue that the leave campaign sold it as.

Captain Dart · Sep 11, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
When you say project fear I assume that you’re talking about the myth that free movement of people in the EU means Eastern Europeans are stealing our jobs. Those figures just confirm that there is enough jobs to go around with huge benefit to the U.K. economy and open borders within the EU isn’t the issue that the leave campaign sold it as.

I'm talking about the remainder campaign to predict disaster in all areas of the economy if we leave the EU. Have you been paying attention, I think not.

skybluetony176 · Sep 11, 2018

Captain Dart said:
I'm talking about the remainder campaign to predict disaster in all areas of the economy if we leave the EU. Have you been paying attention, I think not.

We haven’t left yet. My point still stands.

Astute · Sep 11, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Sweden has an open door policy for refugees. Nothing to do with the EU. Merkels public open invite to the refugees is well documented. You could actually argue she caused the refugee crisis in Europe if you really wanted to talk about the truth. Again nothing to do with the EU. We’ve taken hardly any in comparison to Sweden and Germany. Again nothing to do with the EU. All down to domestic policies.

What domestic policy in Germany and Sweden used to be you mean?

Nothing to do with the EU? Would they all have ended up in EU countries without open borders?

Current policy is leave them stranded in the country that they land in. Germany doesn't want any more. Sweden doesn't want any more.

You make out that the UK hasn't taken anyone. Yet you ignore the fact that our population has boomed whilst the German population has remained steady. So why do so many people from all over the EU want to come here? Germany is stronger. It has the major benefit of the Euro. Lowest unemployment level. And so on.

So why the UK and not Germany?

Astute · Sep 11, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
We haven’t left yet. My point still stands.

Is that the same as the unemployment in the UK will soar if we vote leave point?

Astute · Sep 11, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
When you say project fear I assume that you’re talking about the myth that free movement of people in the EU means Eastern Europeans are stealing our jobs. Those figures just confirm that there is enough jobs to go around with huge benefit to the U.K. economy and open borders within the EU isn’t the issue that the leave campaign sold it as.

How about the myth that everyone has somewhere to live. Or the myth that everyone can get the treatment they need. Or the myth of plenty of school places.

Not a point you make but one you ignore.

martcov · Sep 11, 2018

Astute said:
You can't have it both ways Mart.

You say that open borders are great. Only a small price to pay for the occasional murder and everything else that comes with it.

But Europe is now seen as the place to go. Get to any country in the EU and then you can go where you want. The full truth isn't known to the majority who want to come here. This creates lots of problems. And all this while we have Muslim fanatics that see us as targets. Before you say it I know the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful. But it makes it easy for the few to travel and cause atrocities.

So now we have open borders but not where immigrants get into Europe.

I would be happy to show my passport at borders if it would make the situation better. But word won't get to those who want to come here expecting a pot of gold.[/
QUOTE]

We don’t have open borders. In fact we are strengthening the exterior borders and trying to deport more criminals from non EU countries.

martcov · Sep 11, 2018

Captain Dart said:
I'm talking about the remainder campaign to predict disaster in all areas of the economy if we leave the EU. Have you been paying attention, I think not.

Have we left? Missed that.

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