The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (163 Viewers)

martcov · Oct 15, 2018

Astute said:
OK Mart. Back to your previous posts on the subject.

The AfD are not strong as they got 12%. But in most areas they never got anywhere near the 12%. You say that was mainly in the old East Germany.

AfD has now got 11% in an area that you say they will never get many votes in. The SDP....Merkels partner in running Germany got 9%.

This is in the largest federal state of Germany. It is where the heavy industries are. It is a rich area of Germany.

Merkel is in trouble. It isn't good news for the EU region. It isn't good news for Germany. And it isn't good news for us.

But you will try and tell us differently.

It is good news as the Greens gained. AfD is not capable of governing. It is similar to UKIP. 200000 demonstrated against the far right in Berlin a couple of days ago. Nahles is thick and she is leading the SPD. No wonder they lost. Merkel‘s party didn’t take part as her ally the CSU were there. As always. They tried to be more right wing to head off the AfD and instead let in the Greens.

There is talk of deposing Merkel in the CDU, but there is no obvious candidate. It may not be a bad idea for her to start preparing someone to take over.

Astute · Oct 15, 2018

Grappa said:

You love linking to Twatter.

So what was the point other than agreeing what has already been said on here?

martcov · Oct 15, 2018

Astute said:
Did I say Merkel was at fault?

I said she is in trouble. Are you denying the fact?

The Greens are winners. The AfD are winners. Harmony is the loser.

Would you like to explain how the AfD is getting stronger in such a strong German district?

The country areas were always very conservative. The CSU ruled for years with a more than 50% majority. Always right wing, except in the cities such as Munich which had a strong SPD. In the last 19 years there has been an influx of more than a million from elsewhere in Germany. This has helped the Greens. The AfD has grown because Bavaria took the most refugees being on the southern border. CSU is catholic. The majority of Catholics saw a need to help the people in need. The right wingers obviously didn’t and choose to vote AfD. I never liked CSU, so I am delighted that the Greens won. That on top of the demo in Berlin shows that people don’t necessarily drift to the right. It has absolutely fxxk all to do with Brexit or freedom of movement.

martcov · Oct 15, 2018

Astute said:
You love linking to Twatter.

So what was the point other than agreeing what has already been said on here?

Just nice to calm the people bigging up AfD and indirectly racism. Not you.

Astute · Oct 15, 2018

martcov said:
It is good news as the Greens gained. AfD is not capable of governing. It is similar to UKIP. 200000 demonstrated against the far right in Berlin a couple of days ago. Nahles is thick and she is leading the SPD. No wonder they lost. Merkel‘s party didn’t take part as her ally the CSU were there. As always. They tried to be more right wing to head off the AfD and instead let in the Greens.

There is talk of deposing Merkel in the CDU, but there is no obvious candidate. It may not be a bad idea for her to start preparing someone to take over.

Have you missed where there is talk of the SDP pulling out of the coalition with Merkel?

And one more question Mart. You constantly mention Farage and UKIP although they don't get mentioned in the UK much. The AfD is on the up in Germany. But as you say they will never rule. But is your reason for constantly mentioning Farage and UKIP because you think that they will ever rule in the UK?

AfD is an out and out racist party. Immigrants and black people vote UKIP. Yet UKIP is supposed to be worse than AfD.

martcov · Oct 15, 2018

Astute said:
So what are these easy options?

Remain in the EU or remain in the EU but call it leaving?

Canada + : is Canada in the EU?

Norway: is Norway in the EU?

Astute · Oct 15, 2018

martcov said:
Just nice to calm the people bigging up AfD and indirectly racism. Not you.

Did you read the comments?

martcov · Oct 15, 2018

Astute said:
Have you missed where there is talk of the SDP pulling out of the coalition with Merkel?

And one more question Mart. You constantly mention Farage and UKIP although they don't get mentioned in the UK much. The AfD is on the up in Germany. But as you say they will never rule. But is your reason for constantly mentioning Farage and UKIP because you think that they will ever rule in the UK?

AfD is an out and out racist party. Immigrants and black people vote UKIP. Yet UKIP is supposed to be worse than AfD.

UKIP is as bad as AfD. You should listen to their leader on YouTube. What about Muslim only prisons? AfD isn’t there yet.

Astute · Oct 15, 2018

martcov said:
The country areas were always very conservative. The CSU ruled for years with a more than 50% majority. Always right wing, except in the cities such as Munich which had a strong SPD. In the last 19 years there has been an influx of more than a million from elsewhere in Germany. This has helped the Greens. The AfD has grown because Bavaria took the most refugees being on the southern border. CSU is catholic. The majority of Catholics saw a need to help the people in need. The right wingers obviously didn’t and choose to vote AfD. I never liked CSU, so I am delighted that the Greens won. That on top of the demo in Berlin shows that people don’t necessarily drift to the right. It has absolutely fxxk all to do with Brexit or freedom of movement.

Missing the point as usual I see.

AfD have become stronger where you said they wouldn't. So where are they going to be where they were already stronger?

martcov · Oct 15, 2018

Astute said:
Did you read the comments?

Yes. Dutchman was in like Flynn.

martcov · Oct 15, 2018

Astute said:
Missing the point as usual I see.

AfD have become stronger where you said they wouldn't. So where are they going to be where they were already stronger?

11% is not stronger than in the East. 6% by me.

martcov · Oct 15, 2018

Astute said:
Have you missed where there is talk of the SDP pulling out of the coalition with Merkel?

And one more question Mart. You constantly mention Farage and UKIP although they don't get mentioned in the UK much. The AfD is on the up in Germany. But as you say they will never rule. But is your reason for constantly mentioning Farage and UKIP because you think that they will ever rule in the UK?

AfD is an out and out racist party. Immigrants and black people vote UKIP. Yet UKIP is supposed to be worse than AfD.

I didn’t say UKIP is worse. Just a UK version. Gauland is now giving interviews using Hitler’s argumentation. He merely replaces Jews with Globalists, but the arguments are the same. Someone compared it to a Hitler speech in 1933 at Siemensstadt in Berlin to the workforce. Gauland knows full well what he is doing. Farage and co don’t have the same historical racist English speeches to call upon, but the old Churchill, Dunkirk and 1066 have been rolled out recently.

Astute · Oct 15, 2018

martcov said:
UKIP is as bad as AfD. You should listen to their leader on YouTube. What about Muslim only prisons? AfD isn’t there yet.

You will say that. You always overplaying UKIP and underplay AfD.

AfD provokes outcry in Germany with launch of 'Jewish group'

Girl’s racist poem sparks Germany row

https://www.thejc.com/news/world/ge...-it-launches-group-for-jewish-member-1.470621

'This is the real reason the German far right could triumph at this weekend's elections'

Boris Becker wants 'consequences' after AfD lawmaker's racist tweet | DW | 07.01.2018

And all from a political party in Germany that only started 3 years ago.

Astute · Oct 15, 2018

martcov said:
11% is not stronger than in the East. 6% by me.

How high was it in Bavaria last time?

The AfD is the 3rd largest party in Germany. But you also look for excuses here.

3 years from nothing to 3rd? Not a worry? Not a problem?

Astute · Oct 15, 2018

martcov said:
I didn’t say UKIP is worse. Just a UK version. Gauland is now giving interviews using Hitler’s argumentation. He merely replaces Jews with Globalists, but the arguments are the same. Someone compared it to a Hitler speech in 1933 at Siemensstadt in Berlin to the workforce. Gauland knows full well what he is doing. Farage and co don’t have the same historical racist English speeches to call upon, but the old Churchill, Dunkirk and 1066 have been rolled out recently.

The AfD are out and out racists. The equivalent in the UK is the BNP. What is the best the BNP has ever done here?

martcov · Oct 15, 2018

Grendel said:
You really are a piece of work

The 52% even if had 4 choices and the 5th was pick any of the above other than remain they’d vote leave.

Still keep going. Your the best argument for leaving that there is.

The point being I would only allow leavers to vote on a plan to leave. Just voting leave without knowing what it meant or how you were going to do it would be stupid and result in a mess where only a minority can possibly be happy with the result. Unless they are really thick of course.

Astute · Oct 15, 2018

martcov said:
The point being I would only allow leavers to vote on a plan to leave. Just voting leave without knowing what it meant or how you were going to do it would be stupid and result in a mess where only a minority can possibly be happy with the result. Unless they are really thick of course.

Leave meant leave Mart.

Or do you mean that they didn't know what lengths the EU would go to trying to force us to stay in the EU?

I was a remainer. I didn't have a clue what lengths the EU would go to trying to force us to stay in the EU. That has pissed me off much more than we voted to leave. This is making me not wanting to be a part of the EU anymore. It gave me a reason to look into how they do things. And as you know it isn't what is best for the people of the EU.

dutchman · Oct 15, 2018

martcov said:
Yes. Dutchman was in like Flynn.

I didn't mention AfD!

The EU: In, out, shake it all about....

martcov · Oct 15, 2018

Astute said:
How high was it in Bavaria last time?

The AfD is the 3rd largest party in Germany. But you also look for excuses here.

3 years from nothing to 3rd? Not a worry? Not a problem?

I don’t like it and will march against it if they come here.

I am not worried about them as they are populists. They are at their peak. People are sussing them out. More worrying is the amount of parties coming in. The vote is split and coalitions will start getting bigger and more difficult to hold together.

martcov · Oct 15, 2018

dutchman said:
I didn't mention AfD!

The EU: In, out, shake it all about....

True. Just happy that Merkel’s in trouble? Seehofer is the problem though. It is a difficult situation. Too many parties.

Astute · Oct 15, 2018

martcov said:
I don’t like it and will march against it if they come here.

I am not worried about them as they are populists. They are at their peak. People are sussing them out. More worrying is the amount of parties coming in. The vote is split and coalitions will start getting bigger and more difficult to hold together.

They are at their peak? How do you know that?

Each time there is an election they get more votes. 1 in 8 Germans vote racist. And it is getting worse.

You talk about the diluted vote. Hasn't diluted the AfD vote much has it?

Astute · Oct 15, 2018

martcov said:
True. Just happy that Merkel’s in trouble? Seehofer is the problem though. It is a difficult situation. Too many parties.

If these parties were happy with Merkel and what she wants they could join her. But if anything they are diluting the vote against what she stands for.

martcov · Oct 15, 2018

Astute said:
Leave meant leave Mart.

Or do you mean that they didn't know what lengths the EU would go to trying to force us to stay in the EU?

I was a remainer. I didn't have a clue what lengths the EU would go to trying to force us to stay in the EU. That has pissed me off much more than we voted to leave. This is making me not wanting to be a part of the EU anymore. It gave me a reason to look into how they do things. And as you know it isn't what is best for the people of the EU.

No one is forcing the UK to stay in. Just that the blaggers told people that leaving the EU would be easy. They want to sell us cars, cheese and wine and will let us have our cake and eat it. They are now being difficult by saying it doesn’t work like that. If you leave you have to provide a workable solution. That is no surprise for me, but I wasn’t following the bullshitters on their campaign and never thought that the UK would be so stupid as to put themselves in such a weak position. The vote was too narrow to show that the country as a large majority wanted to leave. At most only half do and business and parliament don’t want to leave.

It’s not the EU that is problem. The voters were conned and now blame the EU for them being conned. I really hope that the tide turns and that the liars are taken apart.

martcov · Oct 15, 2018

Astute said:
If these parties were happy with Merkel and what she wants they could join her. But if anything they are diluting the vote against what she stands for.

She has lost the right of her party. But no party is big enough to negotiate a strong coalition. What Merkel stands for is a more moderate Conservativism. I wish her well. We need her for stability, especially with the tossers that are in power elsewhere.

Astute · Oct 15, 2018

martcov said:
No one is forcing the UK to stay in. Just that the blaggers told people that leaving the EU would be easy. They want to sell us cars, cheese and wine and will let us have our cake and eat it. They are now being difficult by saying it doesn’t work like that. If you leave you have to provide a workable solution. That is no surprise for me, but I wasn’t following the bullshitters on their campaign and never thought that the UK would be so stupid as to put themselves in such a weak position. The vote was too narrow to show that the country as a large majority wanted to leave. At most only half do and business and parliament don’t want to leave.

It’s not the EU that is problem. The voters were conned and now blame the EU for them being conned. I really hope that the tide turns and that the liars are taken apart.

Come on Mart. Do you really think we are all that thick?

You keep saying that we have a major problem with Ireland. You keep mentioning other major problems.

But yet again you haven't replied to my post on how many major problems would just disappear if we had a free trade agreement. The borders would remain as they are. Get checked in and out of the UK. Just look back a few posts if your memory is that bad or you missed it.

EU countries would benefit more from no tariffs than we would. This is because we buy much more than we sell.

Just tell me why this wouldn't work.

Yes there would be more to sort out. But if we got to that stage it would mean that finally the EU is ready to negotiate.

We didn't join the EEC to be dictated to. We didn't get pushed into the EU to be dictated to. So why the f#ck do you think they should be able to dictate to us now?

Astute · Oct 15, 2018

martcov said:
She has lost the right of her party. But no party is big enough to negotiate a strong coalition. What Merkel stands for is a more moderate Conservativism. I wish her well. We need her for stability, especially with the tossers that are in power elsewhere.

Yet you say that the EU is strong and everyone is together as one.

Now you are finally admitting that Germany has problems will you admit that there are major problems all over the EU?

If you can you then might be able to admit that a good Brexit deal would be best for the EU region.

Sick Boy · Oct 15, 2018

Astute said:
So you posted a link to an article saying that it looked good for a deal so the EU must be looking for a deal......to it becoming there isn't going to be a deal struck as it shows what was previously said is right?

:wideyed:

I know it's a challenge for you to understand but the website deleted the orginal article after it was looking positive and the webmasters of the website redirected that article to the new one saying that it wasn't so positive.

It's not that hard to understand.

Sick Boy · Oct 15, 2018

Astute said:
Come on Mart. Do you really think we are all that thick?

You keep saying that we have a major problem with Ireland. You keep mentioning other major problems.

But yet again you haven't replied to my post on how many major problems would just disappear if we had a free trade agreement. The borders would remain as they are. Get checked in and out of the UK. Just look back a few posts if your memory is that bad or you missed it.

EU countries would benefit more from no tariffs than we would. This is because we buy much more than we sell.

Just tell me why this wouldn't work.

Yes there would be more to sort out. But if we got to that stage it would mean that finally the EU is ready to negotiate.

We didn't join the EEC to be dictated to. We didn't get pushed into the EU to be dictated to. So why the f#ck do you think they should be able to dictate to us now?

Perhaps it's due to the UK wishing to align itself more to American standards to secure a trade deal? This would mean there would need to be checks to ensure that banned goods were not entering into the EU.

It would be fine if the UK agreed to maintain its current standards in the long-term but that we all know that won't be happening.

martcov · Oct 15, 2018

Astute said:
Come on Mart. Do you really think we are all that thick?

You keep saying that we have a major problem with Ireland. You keep mentioning other major problems.

But yet again you haven't replied to my post on how many major problems would just disappear if we had a free trade agreement. The borders would remain as they are. Get checked in and out of the UK. Just look back a few posts if your memory is that bad or you missed it.

EU countries would benefit more from no tariffs than we would. This is because we buy much more than we sell.

Just tell me why this wouldn't work.

Yes there would be more to sort out. But if we got to that stage it would mean that finally the EU is ready to negotiate.

We didn't join the EEC to be dictated to. We didn't get pushed into the EU to be dictated to. So why the f#ck do you think they should be able to dictate to us now?

We will have to abide by the same EU regulations even if there are no tariffs in order to avoid border controls. We haven’t got to trade negotiations yet as we will not agree to applying EU regulations. The discussion is about regulatory frameworks. At the moment we have a FTA on tariffs and regulations. You cannot get better. It is called the single market and customs union. But the UK does not want it because of people like you. You won’t accept the 4 freedoms which make the SM and CU. No one in the EU wants to alter the rules to suit Astute and Co‘s dislike of freedom of movement. The UK and Astute are saying, if you want to sell to us, you must change the rules. And you call that dictating to the UK? Jesus wept.

martcov · Oct 15, 2018

Astute said:
Yet you say that the EU is strong and everyone is together as one.

Now you are finally admitting that Germany has problems will you admit that there are major problems all over the EU?

If you can you then might be able to admit that a good Brexit deal would be best for the EU region.

A good Brexit deal would be the Norway one, or maybe Canada +. Just because Germany has problems, or Greece or Italy doesn’t mean they want to make more problems by altering the EU rules for less than half the voters in a third country.

martcov · Oct 15, 2018

Astute said:
If these parties were happy with Merkel and what she wants they could join her. But if anything they are diluting the vote against what she stands for.

All parties have their own ideals and try to bring them into any coalition. It is not a German thing. Nor is PR. Our first past the post system makes it hard for smaller parties to get through. Our problem is that, because people cannot join parties representing narrrow ideals, they make a party within a party. The ERG or Momentum then try and force their ideals on the whole party - which is not what millions thought they were voting for. At least you know what ideals you are voting for in PR. Merkel has far fewer problems in her party than May.

martcov · Oct 15, 2018

Astute said:
We didn't join the EEC to be dictated to. We didn't get pushed into the EU to be dictated to. So why the f#ck do you think they should be able to dictate to us now?

This has to quote of the year. Leaver caricature all over it. No one is dictating to a third country. If you wish to have the best possible deal then you agree to the terms of the best possible deal. It is not rocket science. If you don’t like the terms which everyone else has agreed to - they are the terms you invented and agreed to - then you don’t have to accept them. It is a free world. Go and find terms acceptable to you elsewhere. Bon voyage. No one is dictating to the UK. Politicians promised that the UK would dictate to the EU. Didn’t work. Blame the politicians.

martcov · Oct 15, 2018

Astute said:
They are at their peak? How do you know that?

Each time there is an election they get more votes. 1 in 8 Germans vote racist. And it is getting worse.

You talk about the diluted vote. Hasn't diluted the AfD vote much has it?

1 in 10 is less than 1 in 8.

martcov · Oct 15, 2018

Astute said:
If these parties were happy with Merkel and what she wants they could join her. But if anything they are diluting the vote against what she stands for.

You are missing the point completely. Firstly you don’t understand the PR system. Secondly, in Bavaria the main reason for CSU losing was because they tried to rock the boat with Merkel’s coalition. Most voters say they are sick of the CSU arguing with the government. They don’t trust Söder. He has 48% popularity in his own party membership. They don’t like the anti immigration, AfD copycat course. The greens are seen as more humane and have serious policies as opposed to trying to wind people up on immigration.

Yes, AFD got their 10%, but the vast majority are not interested in their hate mongering. The SPD have lost their raison d‘etre. There is full employment and people are paid well in Bayern. Unemployment was cited as only 30% in terms of relevance for voters. People had other concerns than pure economics . All this has absolutely nothing to do with the EU, Brexit or dissatisfaction with Merkel. Merkel is weakened as a side effect because she has crap partners. Difficult times.

clint van damme · Oct 15, 2018

Astute said:
You just don't get it do you?

The best thing for the EU and the UK is for a free trade deal so we can continue to trade with each other. Jobs will not be lost on both sides.

But the EU doesn't want it as they don't want the remainder of the EU seeing that there is life after the EU. They are more interested in their people suffering to keep the status quo continuing.

Am I supposed to congratulate them on this?

but it was obvious from the start that this was how the EU were going to approach things, whether you me or anyone else agrees or disagrees with their stance is irrelevant.

If the government have been relying on the EU taking a different approach than they're even stupider than I though. From the outset, when people were talking about German car manufacturers lobbying the German government the BDI said they wouldn't allow that to happen.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (163 Viewers)

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