The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (201 Viewers)

Astute · Oct 28, 2018

martcov said:
No. Far right has less members of parliament than 5Star. So far right leaning rather than far right.

Conte Cabinet - Wikipedia

Noticed there had been another post. Should have guessed it was yours as I had no notification.

They are not left leaning. They say they are neither left or right. But they push right while using left reasoning. Then add this to far right that they have joined forces with.

Italy’s Left-Wing Populists Won’t Stop the Far-Right. They’ll Strengthen It.

Then you have the problems with Italy. Everything is being cut to the bone. Now many things are in disarray. Yet 5 star is seen as being to blame for much of it.

Romans protest at eternal decline of Italian capital | Reuters

NPR Choice page

Rome protests over city's decay under Five Star Movement mayor - CNN

martcov · Oct 28, 2018

Astute said:
Noticed there had been another post. Should have guessed it was yours as I had no notification.

They are not left leaning. They say they are neither left or right. But they push right while using left reasoning. Then add this to far right that they have joined forces with.

Italy’s Left-Wing Populists Won’t Stop the Far-Right. They’ll Strengthen It.

Then you have the problems with Italy. Everything is being cut to the bone. Now many things are in disarray. Yet 5 star is seen as being to blame for much of it.

Romans protest at eternal decline of Italian capital | Reuters

NPR Choice page

Rome protests over city's decay under Five Star Movement mayor - CNN

Yes. Populists say a lot, promise a lot, but after initial success the reality comes back to bite them.

martcov · Oct 28, 2018

Astute said:
Noticed there had been another post. Should have guessed it was yours as I had no notification.

They are not left leaning. They say they are neither left or right. But they push right while using left reasoning. Then add this to far right that they have joined forces with.

Italy’s Left-Wing Populists Won’t Stop the Far-Right. They’ll Strengthen It.

Then you have the problems with Italy. Everything is being cut to the bone. Now many things are in disarray. Yet 5 star is seen as being to blame for much of it.

Romans protest at eternal decline of Italian capital | Reuters

NPR Choice page

Rome protests over city's decay under Five Star Movement mayor - CNN

I didn’t say left leaning. They claim to be „big tent“. Which will include some „left leaners“.

Astute · Oct 28, 2018

martcov said:
I didn’t say left leaning. They claim to be „big tent“. Which will include some „left leaners“.

So is SB wrong when he says left leaning?

They claim to be neither left or right. They claim to be anti EU. Is that right?

Captain Dart · Oct 28, 2018

Sick Boy said:
The Italian government isn't far-right, it's a coalition made up of a far-left leaning party and a far-right leaning party.

..and interestingly the Germans are transferring votes partly to the left wing Green party & the right wing AfD.
Conclusion, the established parties have lost their way and are not offering what the public want.

martcov · Oct 28, 2018

Astute said:
So is SB wrong when he says left leaning?

They claim to be neither left or right. They claim to be anti EU. Is that right?

No. Italy's 5-Star sheds anti-EU image, calls for reform | Reuters

martcov · Oct 28, 2018

Captain Dart said:
..and interestingly the Germans are transferring votes partly to the left wing Green party & the right wing AfD.
Conclusion, the established parties have lost their way and are not offering what the public want.

Conclusion. There is an alternative protest party to right wing populists. Thank god.

Sick Boy · Oct 28, 2018

Astute said:
So is SB wrong when he says left leaning?

They claim to be neither left or right. They claim to be anti EU. Is that right?

No.

Astute · Oct 28, 2018

Sick Boy said:
No.

So 5star are left wingers? Can't even find anything that says they lean to the left these days.

Astute · Oct 28, 2018

martcov said:
No. Italy's 5-Star sheds anti-EU image, calls for reform | Reuters

That was from 2017. Can you find something more recent?

Sick Boy · Oct 28, 2018

Astute said:
So 5star are left wingers? Can't even find anything that says they lean to the left these days.

They have some people within the party who are incredibly left-wing but they also have some within the party to appeal to the right. One of their key policies is the universal basic income.

Overall they attracted left wing voters from the more traditional parties.

Sick Boy · Oct 28, 2018

Astute said:
That was from 2017. Can you find something more recent?

What makes you think their position has suddenly changed?

Astute · Oct 28, 2018

Sick Boy said:
What makes you think their position has suddenly changed?

From what I have read up on them they got many votes by saying what voters wanted to hear. But now they state that they are not leaning to the left at all. As in the links I put on here. They seem to have as many to the left as right. But call themselves in the middle.

Sick Boy · Oct 28, 2018

Astute said:
From what I have read up on them they got many votes by saying what voters wanted to hear. But now they state that they are not leaning to the left at all. As in the links I put on here. They seem to have as many to the left as right. But call themselves in the middle.

Alessandro Di Battista - Wikipedia

The above is my tip for their next leader and is very much left-wing. I think that they're incompetent, personally.

Captain Dart · Oct 28, 2018

Astute · Oct 28, 2018

Sick Boy said:
Alessandro Di Battista - Wikipedia

The above is my tip for their next leader and is very much left-wing. I think that they're incompetent, personally.

I agree. But do they keep up with promises or do what they think is best?

Astute · Oct 28, 2018

Captain Dart said:

The Germans are saying that it has been schicksalswahl.

Blow for Merkel in German regional election

SkyblueBazza · Oct 28, 2018

Sick Boy said:
There are no benefits to it whatsoever, it has become about personal ideology and it's going to leave the UK bitterly divided for the foreseeable future. If it goes start to go wrong it'll only get worse and worse.

Ideology...sounds familiar

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Sick Boy · Oct 28, 2018

Astute said:
I agree. But do they keep up with promises or do what they think is best?

They seem to be persevering with their pre-election promises, especially the universal income.

Sick Boy · Oct 28, 2018

SkyblueBazza said:
Ideology...sounds familiar

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

As in you have heard the word before?

Astute · Oct 28, 2018

Sick Boy said:
They seem to be persevering with their pre-election promises, especially the universal income.

They said about a referendum on leaving the Euro. Are they keeping to that?

Leak reveals League and Five Star Movement's radical plans for Italy

Sick Boy · Oct 28, 2018

Astute said:
They said about a referendum on leaving the Euro. Are they keeping to that?

Leak reveals League and Five Star Movement's radical plans for Italy

They proposed it historically but since changed their mind and it was not part of their election pledges.

SkyblueBazza · Oct 28, 2018

Sick Boy said:
As in you have heard the word before?

Many times...in description of the EU.
Most recently about 3wks ago. Some 'expert' on 5Live talking through the issues explaining how there are the political & idealogical camps withing the EU. The latter (mostly the Commision) appear to be steadfast in their approach to Brexit...& are more influencial in negotiations than the political camp (individual national governments). And the ideologists are apparently calling the shots.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Sick Boy · Oct 28, 2018

SkyblueBazza said:
Many times...in description of the EU.
Most recently about 3wks ago. Some 'expert' on 5Live talking through the issues explaining how there are the political & idealogical camps withing the EU. The latter (mostly the Commision) appear to be steadfast in their approach to Brexit...& are more influencial in negotiations than the political camp (individual national governments). And the ideologists are apparently calling the shots.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Surely every political group has its own ideology? It's not a dirty word that's exclusive to the EU.

martcov · Oct 28, 2018

SkyblueBazza said:
Many times...in description of the EU.
Most recently about 3wks ago. Some 'expert' on 5Live talking through the issues explaining how there are the political & idealogical camps withing the EU. The latter (mostly the Commision) appear to be steadfast in their approach to Brexit...& are more influencial in negotiations than the political camp (individual national governments). And the ideologists are apparently calling the shots.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

The Commission proposes and administers laws. The parliament has over 700 MEPs from all parties and votes on laws. The Council consists of 28 countries with their own political ideology. There is plenty of room for various ideologies and political views. Whatever happens any deal with the U.K. has to be ratified unambiguously. The council has the power at the end of the day.

martcov · Oct 28, 2018

Astute said:
The Germans are saying that it has been schicksalswahl.

Blow for Merkel in German regional election

It isn’t over yet. It is a close run thing as to whether CDU and Greens can keep power.

SkyblueBazza · Oct 28, 2018

Sick Boy said:
Surely every political group has its own ideology? It's not a dirty word that's exclusive to the EU.

True. Guess it only becomes an issue when the ideology becomes obsessive & overrides reality. A bit like some consider what Brexit is too. Just different ideology led & driven by different individuals

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

martcov · Oct 28, 2018

SkyblueBazza said:
True. Guess it only becomes an issue when the ideology becomes obsessive & overrides reality. A bit like some consider what Brexit is too. Just different ideology led & driven by different individuals

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

The EU is a rule based organisation. Sticking to the four freedoms is not ideological, it is the basis of the SM. Insisting on the U.K. paying what they have committed to, guaranteeing citizens rights and asking for proposals to keep to the GFA and have a frictionless British/ EU border are practicalities not ideologies. It is simple, they are not going to change the rules to suit the ideology of a country that is leaving.

Astute · Oct 29, 2018

martcov said:
It isn’t over yet. It is a close run thing as to whether CDU and Greens can keep power.

Who said over?

Looks like the CDU are going to get over 25% less votes than last time. Looks like the SPD are going to get over 33% less votes than last time. The Greens look like about doubling their share. And the AfD look like getting a bigger share.

It is making Merkel look very fragile.

Astute · Oct 29, 2018

martcov said:
The EU is a rule based organisation. Sticking to the four freedoms is not ideological, it is the basis of the SM. Insisting on the U.K. paying what they have committed to, guaranteeing citizens rights and asking for proposals to keep to the GFA and have a frictionless British/ EU border are practicalities not ideologies. It is simple, they are not going to change the rules to suit the ideology of a country that is leaving.

We agreed on paying what we had committed to. This is the so called divorce bill.

We wanted to guarantee citizens rights right at the start. But the EU refused to talk about it.

Frictionless UK/EU border? It isn't us using threats that it won't be. It isn't us saying we won't be able to fly to the EU. It wasn't us saying that customs will be blocked. It wasn't us saying that we might need visas. It wasn't us saying that we have to sort other things before we can talk about a trade deal. We would need a free trade deal to have any chance of a frictionless border.

The GFA is a different matter. It is something that the EU shouldn't unnecessarily get involved in. There is an uneasy peace in Ireland still. I am still waiting for someone to explain how a free trade agreement wouldn't help sorting out the border problem with Ireland. A couple even try to say it would make it harder. That is nothing but point scoring. Yet we are not allowed to talk about a trade deal until the Irish problem is solved. That is a joke. Yes the EU will try anything to make us stay in the EU. They will do anything to extend our stay in the EU. But continued peace in Ireland is more important than anything.

martcov · Oct 29, 2018

Astute said:
We agreed on paying what we had committed to. This is the so called divorce bill.

We wanted to guarantee citizens rights right at the start. But the EU refused to talk about it.

Frictionless UK/EU border? It isn't us using threats that it won't be. It isn't us saying we won't be able to fly to the EU. It wasn't us saying that customs will be blocked. It wasn't us saying that we might need visas. It wasn't us saying that we have to sort other things before we can talk about a trade deal. We would need a free trade deal to have any chance of a frictionless border.

The GFA is a different matter. It is something that the EU shouldn't unnecessarily get involved in. There is an uneasy peace in Ireland still. I am still waiting for someone to explain how a free trade agreement wouldn't help sorting out the border problem with Ireland. A couple even try to say it would make it harder. That is nothing but point scoring. Yet we are not allowed to talk about a trade deal until the Irish problem is solved. That is a joke. Yes the EU will try anything to make us stay in the EU. They will do anything to extend our stay in the EU. But continued peace in Ireland is more important than anything.

There can be no discussion about trade until we have agreed how it will be controlled. The EU wants clarity on the border as do we, and we agreed to sort this out first.

There is no discussion on that.

Whether aeroplanes fly or not is not ideology. We are leaving the EU and therefore all other deals through the EU. We are not leaving to improve conditions with the EU and we are putting Brexit, which is ideology and not fact based, before the GFA with the risk that that involves.

The border, or lack of it, is part of the GFA and seeing as it is the external border of the EU with the UK, the EU can hardly avoid it.

English voters ignored it.

Still waiting to see factual benefits of leaving.

martcov · Oct 29, 2018

Astute said:
Who said over?

Looks like the CDU are going to get over 25% less votes than last time. Looks like the SPD are going to get over 33% less votes than last time. The Greens look like about doubling their share. And the AfD look like getting a bigger share.

It is making Merkel look very fragile.

Fragile, but not hopeless as the coalition won, by a wafer thin majority.

Sick Boy · Oct 29, 2018

Astute said:
We agreed on paying what we had committed to. This is the so called divorce bill.

We wanted to guarantee citizens rights right at the start. But the EU refused to talk about it.

Frictionless UK/EU border? It isn't us using threats that it won't be. It isn't us saying we won't be able to fly to the EU. It wasn't us saying that customs will be blocked. It wasn't us saying that we might need visas. It wasn't us saying that we have to sort other things before we can talk about a trade deal. We would need a free trade deal to have any chance of a frictionless border.

The GFA is a different matter. It is something that the EU shouldn't unnecessarily get involved in. There is an uneasy peace in Ireland still. I am still waiting for someone to explain how a free trade agreement wouldn't help sorting out the border problem with Ireland. A couple even try to say it would make it harder. That is nothing but point scoring. Yet we are not allowed to talk about a trade deal until the Irish problem is solved. That is a joke. Yes the EU will try anything to make us stay in the EU. They will do anything to extend our stay in the EU. But continued peace in Ireland is more important than anything.

Most voters in England couldn't give a toss about Northern Ireland and a shocking number are ignorant about the whole situation (NI/Ire in general).

Funny how it's the 'Irish problem', I'd say it's very much the 'British problem'.

Good to see you've acknowledged that peace in Ireland is more important than Brexit.

Grendel · Oct 29, 2018

Sick Boy said:
Most voters in England couldn't give a toss about Northern Ireland and a shocking number are ignorant about the whole situation (NI/Ire in general).

Funny how it's the 'Irish problem', I'd say it's very much the 'British problem'.

Good to see you've acknowledged that peace in Ireland is more important than Brexit.

Peace in Ireland will not be threatened by Brexit

They can become a united Ireland whenever they want

Sick Boy · Oct 29, 2018

Grendel said:
Peace in Ireland will not be threatened by Brexit

They can become a united Ireland whenever they want

You know full well that even if a majority were to vote for it, it would potentially result in a minority carrying out terrorism.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (201 Viewers)

As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

Remain

Leave

Undecided

Not registered or not intention to vote

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Super Moderator

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Super Moderator

Super Moderator

Well-Known Member

Super Moderator

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Super Moderator

Super Moderator

Well-Known Member

Super Moderator

Well-Known Member

Super Moderator

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Super Moderator

Well-Known Member

Super Moderator

Users who are viewing this thread

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency