The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (202 Viewers)

Astute · Nov 22, 2018

Sick Boy said:
I have said many times before that it is the fault of successive governments, yet you conveniently ignore that.

Oh yeah I forgot. I haven't blamed the governments of both parties since today. Then it will.most probably be not since yesterday.

Which part don't you understand? The government takes the vast majority of the blame. But did Tony Bliar realise that our population would go up by millions because of immigration? Yes immigration has played its part whatever you say. And that isn't blaming immigrants and Immigration.

What do you find so hard to understand?

And you can fuck right off if you want to pretend I have defended Bliar here. Because that is your normal trick.

Astute · Nov 22, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
The only effect of migration on the health system it states in the article that you linked is that it’s kept the maternity hospital open as it’s now sustainable again. The local MP also points out that there are 1300 unemployed and 10000 working immigrants and if the immigrants get sent back who is going to fill the jobs and keep the economy in the region growing.

13% unemployed rate?

So who is sending them back to where they have come from? We struggle to even send back those who shouldn't be here and then commit serious crimes.

So who has said anybody from the EU will be removed?

Astute · Nov 22, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
So how was that the EU’s fault? Was the decision of when to send her made in Brussels?

Ha ha very funny.

I got told earlier this year that they are now closing the mental health section. They need more room.

We have the choice. Spend a lot of money expanding Pilgrim hospital again or removing more services for the general public to be seen.

But it has nothing to do with the population boom in Boston. Ask SB. He will put you right.

Sick Boy · Nov 22, 2018

Astute said:
And you can fuck right off if you want to pretend I have defended Bliar here. Because that is your normal trick

WTF - where have I even suggested that you have defended Blair?

The decision not to impose restrictions on migrants from Eastern Europe was a UK decision, other EU countries did impose restrictions.

martcov · Nov 22, 2018

Astute said:
Can't you read?

They stopped doing heart surgery as they didn't have the space in the hospiat for all the new arrivals. They now have what they call a heart monitoring unit. In other words they monitor heart attack patients. A nursetold me they normally had at least one person a night complain of chest pains. They would get a bed for the night and get fed. In the morning they would just get up and leave. But she said they look on the bright side. Their heart monitoring unit has a fantastic recovery rate.

Does that mean that migrants only come to get a free bed for one night in the UK?

skybluetony176 · Nov 22, 2018

Astute said:
Ha ha very funny.

I got told earlier this year that they are now closing the mental health section. They need more room.

We have the choice. Spend a lot of money expanding Pilgrim hospital again or removing more services for the general public to be seen.

But it has nothing to do with the population boom in Boston. Ask SB. He will put you right.

What do they need more room for. It’s not migrants is it? It’s to do with a population boom in the elderly from what I’ve just read. Probably the EU’s fault no doubt for not making them die sooner. The mental health unit also isn’t closing down it’s being moved to Grantham.

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Nov 22, 2018

Sick Boy said:
You have tried to blame EU migrants consistently over the last 2 years for a lot of the country's woes, to me is says a lot about you. The overwhelming majority come here to work and pay taxes, if that money is not reinvested into the infrastructure of the country and services, is it their fault? Don't forget it wasn't that long ago that you were parroting May's magic money tree crap.

Someone says something you don't like so you make lots of things up. All the proof is there to be read. But you will still continue with the same crap. - this sounds an awful lot like yourself and your bizarre attempts at putting words into people's mouths,

Not taking any sides here, but many low paid migrant workers send their money home to their families in Eastern Europe. They may pay taxes here, but they don't spend their income the way most Brits do. Four Billion pounds left the country last year and went to families abroad. That money could be spent in the local economies here.

CCFCSteve · Nov 22, 2018

I cant believe that after all this time those that voted Remain (not just on here, various comments on FT comments page etc) still don't appear to grasp the difference between controlled and uncontrolled immigration. The fact is no country should have uncontrolled immigration, when you think about, it its crazy to even suggest it.

With uncontrolled immigration, 1million net migrants 'could' turn up in a year...how would any country cope with that ? Forget about the arguments that most migrants work, pay tax etc, a majority of which are true, the immediate requirement for public services, housing etc make it totally unfeasible.

There is no doubt that over time net migration is needed due to the social and medical care required for our aging population (this is a crisis that nobody wants to address), however, over the short term in an uncontrolled way, it causes major issues and a massive stretch on public services.

ps by the way, I am not for a minute suggesting that any government in recent years has properly attempted to control net migration, the fact is having the ability to is a necessity for an nation.

martcov · Nov 22, 2018

CCFCSteve said:
I cant believe that after all this time those that voted Remain (not just on here, various comments on FT comments page etc) still don't appear to grasp the difference between controlled and uncontrolled immigration. The fact is no country should have uncontrolled immigration, when you think about, it its crazy to even suggest it.

With uncontrolled immigration, 1million net migrants 'could' turn up in a year...how would any country cope with that ? Forget about the arguments that most migrants work, pay tax etc, a majority of which are true, the immediate requirement for public services, housing etc make it totally unfeasible.

There is no doubt that over time net migration is needed due to the social and medical care required for our aging population (this is a crisis that nobody wants to address), however, over the short term in an uncontrolled way, it causes major issues and a massive stretch on public services.

ps by the way, I am not for a minute suggesting that any government in recent years has properly attempted to control net migration, the fact is having the ability to is a necessity for an nation.

You do realise that FOM is reciprocal? And that EU migrants are more likely to return home at some point than non EU migrants? And that EU migration has been positive for the UK? Do you want to swap them for ex pat pensioners? I am in favour of reciprocal migration... a win win situation.

martcov · Nov 22, 2018

Alan Dugdales Moustache said:
Not taking any sides here, but many low paid migrant workers send their money home to their families in Eastern Europe. They may pay taxes here, but they don't spend their income the way most Brits do. Four Billion pounds left the country last year and went to families abroad. That money could be spent in the local economies here.

By whom? If they weren’t here there would be no EU migrant tax receipts, and no four billion pounds.

martcov · Nov 22, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
What do they need more room for. It’s not migrants is it? It’s to do with a population boom in the elderly from what I’ve just read. Probably the EU’s fault no doubt for not making them die sooner. The mental health unit also isn’t closing down it’s being moved to Grantham.

The baby boomers are coming into old age. Expect more work for care services in the future.

Sky Blue Pete · Nov 22, 2018

Biased but interesting

In Britain’s boardrooms, Brexit is already here. And the warning is stark | Aditya Chakrabortty

Grendel · Nov 22, 2018

Sky Blue Pete said:
Biased but interesting

In Britain’s boardrooms, Brexit is already here. And the warning is stark | Aditya Chakrabortty

It’s drivel

clint van damme · Nov 22, 2018

Grendel said:
It’s drivel

point out what is drivel?

"The UK will become, Gregory says, “a warehouse economy: low skills, low productivity and low growth”.

this is the thrust of the article and it's already happening.

Sky Blue Pete · Nov 22, 2018

CCFCSteve said:
I cant believe that after all this time those that voted Remain (not just on here, various comments on FT comments page etc) still don't appear to grasp the difference between controlled and uncontrolled immigration. The fact is no country should have uncontrolled immigration, when you think about, it its crazy to even suggest it.

With uncontrolled immigration, 1million net migrants 'could' turn up in a year...how would any country cope with that ? Forget about the arguments that most migrants work, pay tax etc, a majority of which are true, the immediate requirement for public services, housing etc make it totally unfeasible.

There is no doubt that over time net migration is needed due to the social and medical care required for our aging population (this is a crisis that nobody wants to address), however, over the short term in an uncontrolled way, it causes major issues and a massive stretch on public services.

ps by the way, I am not for a minute suggesting that any government in recent years has properly attempted to control net migration, the fact is having the ability to is a necessity for an nation.

we do control immigration outside of the Eu. Some of the stories would make you weep of children we are sending back or forcing them to go to court. So if economic migrants are the issue let’s be clear that’s the issue. Studies regularly show no benefit or negative either way in terms of what they bring but they absolutely assist in an ageing society. The model may be imploding when you don’t have equivalent opportunity but to think immigration is only working 1 way is hugely naive

tommydazzle · Nov 22, 2018

Gazolba said:
So you need more young people to fund the increasing older generation.
But then when those young people get old, you need even more young people to fund them in old age.
The system continues to feed on itself until eventually you reach a point where everyone in the world is elderly except a few 20 year old couples who need to have a million children each.

An expanding population cannot be sustainable in the long term.
More people means more natural resources consumed, more space taken up and more pollution.
Eventually you will run out of space, natural resources and destroy the environment.
We need a whole different economic system that does not depend on growth.
It's not impossible to think that the brainpower of a nation could not come up with a solution.
Of course there is no political or public will to do it, so we are doomed in the long term.
I cannot see us colonising another planet.

Agree with all of this - growth by definition is not indefinitely sustainable. This word 'sustainable' gets bandied around by all politicians and most of them don't have a clue what it really means.

In Norfolk now we're getting huge housing estates tacked onto small market towns with no thought to infrastructure. What made Norfolk special, it's quiet lanes, small communities etc is all being lost under concrete, the roads are getting clogged up and developers and landowners are getting very rich. I pass field after field announcing 500 new houses here and there and I'm immediately thinking, that's probably a thousand extra cars on that one estate. This is the future as all parties try to outdo each other with their house building promises. Yes, we need a million extra homes to support our growing population and ten years down the line we'll need a million more. It would take courage for any party to address population growth in its policy making. Don't know if the Green Party have anything to say on this?

Sick Boy · Nov 22, 2018

tommydazzle said:
Agree with all of this - growth by definition is not indefinitely sustainable. This word 'sustainable' gets bandied around by all politicians and most of them don't have a clue what it really means.

In Norfolk now we're getting huge housing estates tacked onto small market towns with no thought to infrastructure. What made Norfolk special, it's quiet lanes, small communities etc is all being lost under concrete, the roads are getting clogged up and developers and landowners are getting very rich. I pass field after field announcing 500 new houses here and there and I'm immediately thinking, that's probably a thousand extra cars on that one estate. This is the future as all parties try to outdo each other with their house building promises. Yes, we need a million extra homes to support our growing population and ten years down the line we'll need a million more. It would take courage for any party to address population growth in its policy making. Don't know if the Green Party have anything to say on this?

As medicine becomes increasingly advanced and more cures are found and anti-technology/medication is discovered, it is only going to get worse. Sadly it is inevitable that humans will end up destroying the planet. I thought the comparison of humans to a virus in the Matrix was probably spot on.

fernandopartridge · Nov 22, 2018

Alan Dugdales Moustache said:
Not taking any sides here, but many low paid migrant workers send their money home to their families in Eastern Europe. They may pay taxes here, but they don't spend their income the way most Brits do. Four Billion pounds left the country last year and went to families abroad. That money could be spent in the local economies here.

TBH, the way we should deal with that is a massive tax on sending money out of the country. It is useless to talk about a growing economy if the fruits of that growth are offshored. This applies to people coming here to work and multinationals posting profits to lower tax countries.

clint van damme · Nov 22, 2018

Sick Boy said:
As medicine becomes increasingly advanced and more cures are found and anti-technology/medication is discovered, it is only going to get worse. Sadly it is inevitable that humans will end up destroying the planet. I thought the comparison of humans to a virus in the Matrix was probably spot on.

I don't think we'll destroy the planet, I think we'll make it uninhabitable for humans, I think the planet will be fine it will be us who are screwed.

Sick Boy · Nov 22, 2018

clint van damme said:
I don't think we'll destroy the planet, I think we'll make it uninhabitable for humans, I think the planet will be fine it will be us who are screwed.

Sorry I meant life in general, including other animals.

clint van damme · Nov 22, 2018

Sick Boy said:
Sorry I meant life in general, including other animals.

true, we do mess things up for other animals as well!

Astute · Nov 22, 2018

Sick Boy said:
WTF - where have I even suggested that you have defended Blair?

The decision not to impose restrictions on migrants from Eastern Europe was a UK decision, other EU countries did impose restrictions.

OMG.

I got it in before you did. Because earlier when I mentioned May you said I defended her although I am still waiting for you to explain how.

So are you saying that we can restrict EU residents from living in the UK? Yet we can't have talks on restricting EU residents from living here. I am intrigued.

Astute · Nov 22, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
What do they need more room for. It’s not migrants is it? It’s to do with a population boom in the elderly from what I’ve just read. Probably the EU’s fault no doubt for not making them die sooner. The mental health unit also isn’t closing down it’s being moved to Grantham.

You are full of shit.

1, Mental health unit is being shut in Boston hospital. It will not be there anymore. If something shut in Coventry and moved to Birmingham would it not be shutting? Because it takes nearly an hour to get to Grantham from Boston IIRC.

The population of Boston has gone up by about 25% since 2000. I suppose they are all old people that have suddenly appeared

Grendel · Nov 22, 2018

Astute said:
You are full of shit.

1, Mental health unit is being shut in Boston hospital. It will not be there anymore. If something shut in Coventry and moved to Birmingham would it not be shutting? Because it takes nearly an hour to get to Grantham from Boston IIRC.

The population of Boston has gone up by about 25% since 2000. I suppose they are all old people that have suddenly appeared

The population explosion in Lincolnshire of course is due to EU migrants m

You would have to be simple to contend otherwise

New data shows immigration levels in these 7 areas in last decade

Sick Boy · Nov 22, 2018

Astute said:
OMG.

I got it in before you did. Because earlier when I mentioned May you said I defended her although I am still waiting for you to explain how.

So are you saying that we can restrict EU residents from living in the UK? Yet we can't have talks on restricting EU residents from living here. I am intrigued.

Yes we could do when for Poles when they joined the EU. As an expert im sure you know this though

Grendel · Nov 22, 2018

Sick Boy said:
Yes we could do when for Poles when they joined the EU. As an expert im sure you know this though

Restrict permanently? I didn’t know that

Sick Boy · Nov 22, 2018

Grendel said:
Restrict permanently? I didn’t know that

Where have I said permanently? You know full well what I mean

Astute · Nov 22, 2018

Sick Boy said:
Yes we could do when for Poles when they joined the EU. As an expert im sure you know this though

And if we did anything like that you would accuse us of racism.

People from Poland have come to live here for many years. I know a fair few Polish people from before they joined the EU. Why should it stop now?

But still you refuse to acknowledge the problems caused by uncontrollable immigration. You make out that it doesn't cause a single problem. You blame the rise of the right wing on anything but immigration. You blame lack of infrastructure on anything but immigration.

I have never said that immigration shouldn't happen. But we do need some sort of say on it.

Astute · Nov 22, 2018

Sick Boy said:
Where have I said permanently? You know full well what I mean

Nobody knows what you mean. Because you twist things all the time then say people are putting words in your mouth when they question you about what you have said.

Astute · Nov 22, 2018

Grendel said:
The population explosion in Lincolnshire of course is due to EU migrants m

You would have to be simple to contend otherwise

New data shows immigration levels in these 7 areas in last decade

Still waiting for the excuses from Tony....like they are all old people.

Sky Blue Pete · Nov 22, 2018

Astute said:
Still waiting for the excuses from Tony....like they are all old people.

We could have limited them as members of the Eu

skybluetony176 · Nov 22, 2018

Astute said:
You are full of shit.

1, Mental health unit is being shut in Boston hospital. It will not be there anymore. If something shut in Coventry and moved to Birmingham would it not be shutting? Because it takes nearly an hour to get to Grantham from Boston IIRC.

The population of Boston has gone up by about 25% since 2000. I suppose they are all old people that have suddenly appeared

You best tell the local papers then because they wrote this “Lincolnshire Partnership NHS Foundation Trust (LPFT) plans to move Rochford patients to hospitals in Lincoln and Grantham so the unit at Pilgrim can be used for “elderly, frail” waiting to be sent home.”

skybluetony176 · Nov 22, 2018

Astute said:
Still waiting for the excuses from Tony....like they are all old people.

Putting words into people’s mouths again. I never said that immigration hasn’t caused a population growth in Boston. I just corrected you when you claimed that migration is responsible for the mental health unit moving. It’s moving to make way for the elderly. There’s a few articles in the local press outlets that I found and they all said the same thing. Not one mentioned immigration.

Sick Boy · Nov 22, 2018

Astute said:
Nobody knows what you mean. Because you twist things all the time then say people are putting words in your mouth when they question you about what you have said.

LOL Germany did it for Poland? I believe, and we recently did it when Romania joined.

The only person who puts words into people's mouths is you.

CCFCSteve · Nov 22, 2018

martcov said:
You do realise that FOM is reciprocal? And that EU migrants are more likely to return home at some point than non EU migrants? And that EU migration has been positive for the UK? Do you want to swap them for ex pat pensioners? I am in favour of reciprocal migration... a win win situation.

Did you an Pete properly read my whole post ?! This is the problem with trying to sensibly debate this topic. People are either rabidly one way or the other and, like a lot of ignorant voters who will only ever vote one way in a general election (whoever and whatever they are voting for) take their tribal stance rather than listening to people’s (genuine) concerns/comments and trying to address them.

It’s like I heard that John McDonnell said the other day that he could ‘never be friends with a Tory’. It’s pathetic, small minded and shows a very narrow view of the world.

Ps not say that your post was pathetic, small minded etc, just people taking a tribal stance on matters. Life and events are not black or white

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