The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (101 Viewers)

martcov · Nov 29, 2018

clint van damme said:
If you have to check every vehicle that currently enters the country fairly seamlessly using a CMR you can make a fairly accurate estimation of how much delay that is going to create.
If we import certain amount of goods from a certain country under the terms of a trade deal that we will now need to pay WTO tariffs on the you can make a fairly accurate estimation of what the extra cost will be and vice versa with exports.

Yes, all these models can't be relied on 100% but it's not like they're based on guess work.

I agree about resourcefulness and it looks like we could be relying quite heavily on it.

The UK resourcefulness was to help create the SM and CU to make up for us being on an island and the extra time and costs incurred because of that. Now we have a government that, on paper, is determined to bash that in order to stop the reciprocal FOM it involves. The UK will be working on a way to get back as near as possible to the SM and CU for the same reasons it helped create it for in the first place. We will not become a Singapore because we don’t have the location advantages they have, and if we open the floodgates to the US economy, we will wreck our economy. At the end of the day geography and common sense will kick in.

Astute · Nov 29, 2018

martcov said:
The predictions are based on facts. The climate is getting warmer.

Eat less beef. Demand falls. Less cattle.

Your solution to too many people?

Look back. It isn't me blaming our generation for global warming. But you haven't said a word to the person that blames our generation. Is that because he normally agrees with you in principle?

Sick Boy · Nov 29, 2018

Astute said:
Does it come with a cow in the boot to power it?

I’m looking forward to finding out, I lazily didn’t bother to check the translation until the other day as it’s a word I hadn’t had to use before haha

Astute · Nov 29, 2018

Sick Boy said:
I’m looking forward to finding out, I lazily didn’t bother to check the translation until the other day as it’s a word I hadn’t had to use before haha

I have always driven on LPG in Italy. Last time I was there it was a Euro a litre cheaper than petrol.

I remember the first time I filled up in Italy. I didn't know that it was put in for you. I started to fill up. My Italian didn't stretch to the response I got from the attendant :wideyed:

clint van damme · Nov 29, 2018

Astute said:
Do you count it as a success?

No.
But the Iraq war is a strange one and a lot depends how you frame the question.
List saddams crimes and you think he needs removing.
List what's happened afterwards and it looks like a huge mistake.
Perhaps we shouldn't have put him on the throne in the first place!

But what happened happened and was always going to happen regardless of public support or not.

martcov · Nov 29, 2018

Astute said:
Look back. It isn't me blaming our generation for global warming. But you haven't said a word to the person that blames our generation. Is that because he normally agrees with you in principle?

I don’t know whether he normally agrees with me. He doesn’t insult me or post some rabid answer to my posts though. I don’t blame any one generation for us being overpopulated and global warming, but we had generations where things got better and our life expectancy was rising. We now have climate change and in some countries life expectancy is not rising. We cannot claim „you’ve never had it so good“ because there are major problems looming for today’s young people- as with every generation.

Astute · Nov 29, 2018

clint van damme said:
No.
But the Iraq war is a strange one and a lot depends how you frame the question.
List saddams crimes and you think he needs removing.
List what's happened afterwards and it looks like a huge mistake.
Perhaps we shouldn't have put him on the throne in the first place!

But what happened happened and was always going to happen regardless of public support or not.

I agree. It was just the way you worded your question to someone else made it sound like you thought it was a success.

SkyblueBazza · Nov 29, 2018

Oh dear..."Labour says Corbyn would 'relish' debate with May - media" - Labour says Corbyn would 'relish' debate with May - media | Reuters
4 days later given the opportunity, according to 5live 2pm news...he isn't relishing it any more. Something about it would get a bigger audience on ITV than on the BBC...& seems to think the BBC would bring in a "fake audience" to favour May.

Credebility Jezza, credibility...just do it!!!

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

SIR ERNIE · Nov 29, 2018

SkyblueBazza said:
Oh dear..."Labour says Corbyn would 'relish' debate with May - media" - Labour says Corbyn would 'relish' debate with May - media | Reuters
4 days later given the opportunity, according to 5live 2pm news...he isn't relishing it any more. Something about it would get a bigger audience on ITV than on the BBC...& seems to think the BBC would bring in a "fake audience" to favour May.

Credebility Jezza, credibility...just do it!!!

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

The 'debate' is a meaningless sideshow.

clint van damme · Nov 29, 2018

SkyblueBazza said:
Oh dear..."Labour says Corbyn would 'relish' debate with May - media" - Labour says Corbyn would 'relish' debate with May - media | Reuters
4 days later given the opportunity, according to 5live 2pm news...he isn't relishing it any more. Something about it would get a bigger audience on ITV than on the BBC...& seems to think the BBC would bring in a "fake audience" to favour May.

Credebility Jezza, credibility...just do it!!!

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

ripping May is like shooting fish in a barrel. What I want to hear from Corbyn is if he was elected what would his plan be in the event of either no deal or the agreement going through parliament.

SIR ERNIE · Nov 29, 2018

‘Debating’ May’s sell-out betrayal deal merely gives it credibility.

Corbyn should refuse to play along with her.

skybluetony176 · Nov 29, 2018

SIR ERNIE said:
‘Debating’ May’s sell-out betrayal deal merely gives it credibility.

Corbyn should refuse to play along with her.

Surely only the content of the deal can give it credibility? Debate can only expose it for what it is. Surely?

I keep hearing it’s a sell out. Genuinely interested to understand how you’ve reached that conclusion.

chiefdave · Nov 29, 2018

Why bother having a debate unless they're planning on another vote. Its not going to change anything. Just wastes more time.

dutchman · Nov 29, 2018

chiefdave said:
Why bother having a debate unless they're planning on another vote. Its not going to change anything. Just wastes more time.

That's been May-the-Remainer's plan all along.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Nov 29, 2018

chiefdave said:
Why bother having a debate unless they're planning on another vote. Its not going to change anything. Just wastes more time.

I think you've answered your own question to be honest.

Astute · Nov 29, 2018

chiefdave said:
Why bother having a debate unless they're planning on another vote. Its not going to change anything. Just wastes more time.

But it is a chance to ask some questions as long as it isn't staged. And it would also be good to get Corbyn in at the same time to try and get him to say what he really wants.

Sick Boy · Nov 29, 2018

SkyblueBazza said:
Oh dear..."Labour says Corbyn would 'relish' debate with May - media" - Labour says Corbyn would 'relish' debate with May - media | Reuters
4 days later given the opportunity, according to 5live 2pm news...he isn't relishing it any more. Something about it would get a bigger audience on ITV than on the BBC...& seems to think the BBC would bring in a "fake audience" to favour May.

Credebility Jezza, credibility...just do it!!!

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

It was actually as the BBC one with clash with some shitty reality programme on ITV at the same time.

CCFCSteve · Nov 29, 2018

Sick Boy said:
It was actually as the BBC one with clash with some shitty reality programme on ITV at the same time.

Jezza didn’t want to miss I’m a celeb I heard.

SkyblueBazza · Nov 29, 2018

Sick Boy said:
It was actually as the BBC one with clash with some shitty reality programme on ITV at the same time.

I quoted it as I heard it at the time.

By 4pm news...the interviewed Corbyn was actually played where he said such about said 'shitty reality programme'.

A perfect example of how the reporting can change perceptions.

It does seem pointless to me though tbh.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Astute · Nov 30, 2018

An interesting read. Gives another angle on this fiasco

The French village that fears for its Brits

SIR ERNIE · Nov 30, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
I keep hearing it’s a sell out. Genuinely interested to understand how you’ve reached that conclusion.

It’s a sell-out because whilst it says ‘Leave’ on the wrapper, when you open it you find out it’s ‘Remain Plus’.

And if you want confirmation of that, I refer you to the arch Europhile Kenneth Clarke; on record as saying

"I look forward to the day when the Westminster Parliament is just a Council Chamber in Europe."

Guess what? He announced last week

“I will support the deal”

‘nuff said

skybluetony176 · Nov 30, 2018

SIR ERNIE said:
It’s a sell-out because whilst it says ‘Leave’ on the wrapper, when you open it you find out it’s ‘Remain Plus’.

And if you want confirmation of that, I refer you to the arch Europhile Kenneth Clarke; on record as saying

"I look forward to the day when the Westminster Parliament is just a Council Chamber in Europe."

Guess what? He announced last week

“I will support the deal”

‘nuff said

I was hoping for some detail rather than the empty rhetoric of the party politics going around from all quarters.

Why is it remain plus?

skybluegod · Nov 30, 2018

What I really don't get is Corbyn going on about May getting a rubbish deal, but he has not come up with any plan/deal/ideas, that actually solve any of the issues. I don't think this is a good deal. I don't think May thinks its a good deal. But do I think that it is the best deal on the table. If other parties have better ideas, then they should have come forward. Not say 'if we get in government we will get a better deal'. They aren't in Government and won't be until at least 2022. So instead of playing party politics, work on getting the best deal for the country.

skybluetony176 · Nov 30, 2018

skybluegod said:
What I really don't get is Corbyn going on about May getting a rubbish deal, but he has not come up with any plan/deal/ideas, that actually solve any of the issues. I don't think this is a good deal. I don't think May thinks its a good deal. But do I think that it is the best deal on the table. If other parties have better ideas, then they should have come forward. Not say 'if we get in government we will get a better deal'. They aren't in Government and won't be until at least 2022. So instead of playing party politics, work on getting the best deal for the country.

The labour proposal isn’t actually a million miles away from May’s deal. The biggest difference is a permanent customs union rather than a temporary one with the backstop.

martcov · Nov 30, 2018

SIR ERNIE said:
It’s a sell-out because whilst it says ‘Leave’ on the wrapper, when you open it you find out it’s ‘Remain Plus’.

And if you want confirmation of that, I refer you to the arch Europhile Kenneth Clarke; on record as saying

"I look forward to the day when the Westminster Parliament is just a Council Chamber in Europe."

Guess what? He announced last week

“I will support the deal”

‘nuff said

The alternative is actually worse. That’s how far down we are.

skybluegod · Nov 30, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
The labour proposal isn’t actually a million miles away from May’s deal. The biggest difference is a permanent customs union rather than a temporary one with the backstop.

But we can't have that. The EU has rules that out (haven't they? Pretty sure i read that!), so they want a deal which isn't going to happen.

clint van damme · Nov 30, 2018

martcov said:
The alternative is actually worse. That’s how far down we are.

it is. But as bad as I believe no deal will be I think we will eventually turn things around.
With this deal it looks to me like we will be shackled to it.
That's why I said, and others have as well, that Corbyn needs to tell us what he would do in both scenarios if labour were elected.

skybluetony176 · Nov 30, 2018

skybluegod said:
But we can't have that. The EU has rules that out (haven't they? Pretty sure i read that!), so they want a deal which isn't going to happen.

Won’t Canada have a permanent customs union when they gain access to the EU single market? It won’t include things like meat and poultry so isn’t a fully comprehensive customs union but then Labour’s wording IIRC also isn’t for a fully comprehensive customs union either. In fact wasn’t another vocal group going by the name of the ERG also claiming we need a Canada plus deal? This is exactly what I mean by playing party politics. They’re all saying the same or very near the same things when you look at the barebones, just using different language to make out that they’re saying the complete opposite to trash the deal.

The last people we should be listening to is politicians on this. Listen to industry, listen to the people who run our institutions day in day out. That’s also who the politicians should be listening to. Policy makers don’t run the country, everyone else does.

For me May’s deal is the reality of brexit and if it’s a bad deal then the reality is Brexit is a bad deal.

skybluegod · Nov 30, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Won’t Canada have a permanent customs union when they gain access to the EU single market? It won’t include things like meat and poultry so isn’t a fully comprehensive customs union but then Labour’s wording IIRC also isn’t for a fully comprehensive customs union either. In fact wasn’t another vocal group going by the name of the ERG also claiming we need a Canada plus deal? This is exactly what I mean by playing party politics. They’re all saying the same or very near the same things when you look at the barebones, just using different language to make out that they’re saying the complete opposite to trash the deal.

The last people we should be listening to is politicians on this. Listen to industry, listen to the people who run our institutions day in day out. That’s also who the politicians should be listening to. Policy makers don’t run the country, everyone else does.

For me May’s deal is the reality of brexit and if it’s a bad deal then the reality is Brexit is a bad deal.

I agree with this. I don't think Brexit is a good deal. But it's what people voted for and so we have to see it through. From what i remember we were told the 4 key principles aligned. And the customs union was one of these, so we could not have this without the others, which is why the deal wouldn't work.

I do however disagree on the point about listening to businesses, because they are not the ones at the negotiating table, they are saying what is best (which of course is what we should want), but doesn't mean we can get it.

martcov · Nov 30, 2018

clint van damme said:
it is. But as bad as I believe no deal will be I think we will eventually turn things around.
With this deal it looks to me like we will be shackled to it.
That's why I said, and others have as well, that Corbyn needs to tell us what he would do in both scenarios if labour were elected.

The problem with eventually, is that there is no time limit. Whatever happens we will not be better off than we are now. Geography being the key. Our major trading partners are our neighbours and we have been able to build on that and increase our trade with the rest of the world whilst being in the EU. Putting any form of barriers in will result in friction at the ports which creates bureaucracy and costs making us less competitive.

fernandopartridge · Nov 30, 2018

SIR ERNIE said:
The 'debate' is a meaningless sideshow.

The debate just shows that British politics is in the gutter, it is all about PR now. There is no substance at all. Never mind leaving the EU, I think we perhaps need to leave the Houses of Parliament as they're not fit for purpose.

Sick Boy · Nov 30, 2018

fernandopartridge said:
The debate just shows that British politics is in the gutter, it is all about PR now. There is no substance at all. Never mind leaving the EU, I think we perhaps need to leave the Houses of Parliament as they're not fit for purpose.

Bang on. The recent blunders by Davis show the whole thing for what it is.

clint van damme · Nov 30, 2018

martcov said:
The problem with eventually, is that there is no time limit. Whatever happens we will not be better off than we are now. Geography being the key. Our major trading partners are our neighbours and we have been able to build on that and increase our trade with the rest of the world whilst being in the EU. Putting any form of barriers in will result in friction at the ports which creates bureaucracy and costs making us less competitive.

i appreciate that, I fully expect never to see an upturn from a no deal Brexit in my life time, certainly in my working life time.

skybluegod · Nov 30, 2018

European Council President Donald Tusk, meanwhile, has stressed that the deal the EU struck with Theresa May was the "only possible one".

From bbc news, just shows the deal Corbyn keeps preaching isn't possible.

Politics is a load of crap, and it's sad that what's best for the people UK and worldwide is often the least important thing of all. No matter what part in any nation it's the same.

Astute · Nov 30, 2018

skybluegod said:
European Council President Donald Tusk, meanwhile, has stressed that the deal the EU struck with Theresa May was the "only possible one".

Which is why it might end up getting passed through parliament.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (101 Viewers)

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