Covstu
Well-Known Member
Do you really think joe public has a clue about the details of this Deal? I doubt it, they are just sick of 2 years of delays
Do you really think joe public has a clue about the details of this Deal? I doubt it, they are just sick of 2 years of delaysIt goes deeper than polling numbers. Last time I looked, a vote tomorrow would yield a 55% win for Remain (note: I don’t take this as gospel). This suggests a couple of things, that the public are not happy with a Brexit process and/or the deal May is bringing back to the country. Public opinion doesn’t tend to shift about 7% to the other side over the course of 2 years. So the government should not sleep walk into Brexit because contexts have changed and the government needs nenewed consent to finalise Brexit.
Mays deal is not 'leaving the EU'.
Brexit means Brexit, and this is Brexit.
Well...In the case of May's deal Brexit means Remain.
But we now know exactly what the deal is now. Two and a half years ago we had no idea what the deal would be.Can they have a third vote when they change their mind again?
Not even sure how that’s an answer to my question but it’s an answer to something I’m sure. You feel that had we stayed in the Eu Germany would have received a grant to move rolls Royce jobs out of the uk?? Is that the argument?Did anyone vote for any of the other business that were moved out of the UK with EU grants?
There's two sides as always.
But we now know exactly what the deal is now. Two and a half years ago we had no idea what the deal would be.
It's a nonsense to suggest there would ever be need for a third vote.
This is still democracy if we now have a a second vote, because we now know so much more than we did two and a half years ago.
Not even sure how that’s an answer to my question but it’s an answer to something I’m sure. You feel that had we stayed in the Eu Germany would have received a grant to move rolls Royce jobs out of the uk?? Is that the argument?
Or that Eu were responsible for the car plants set up in other countries to the uk as it was cheaper to make cars there?
Could you elaborate?
Mays 'deal' isn't even a proper deal.Let’s concentrate on Britain can do. What is the solution the situation the government finds itself in?
If not a general election or referendum, what’s to be done? As far as I can see, the options are May’s deal, which isn’t a proper Brexit, hence the ERG are in open rebellion or a no deal which is in no one’s interest and no one voted for that.
Cause it will affect us moreWalk away, focus their minds, the EU haven't had to concede anything yet ! Time to tell them that they actually have to negotiate or there is no deal and their fragile economy will start to creak.
The referendum wasn't about any so-called 'deal', it was about whether Britain remains or leaves and leave won.
It's nonsense to suggest that remainers will accept the result of any vote that goes against their wishes. They never have and they never will.
No it isn't.Well... it is.
Brexit means Brexit, and this is Brexit.
If those who claimed to want us to leave got behind a deal that saw us leave, we wouldn't be having this conversation now.
We vote leave. Nearly 2m more votes leave to remain.But we now know exactly what the deal is now. Two and a half years ago we had no idea what the deal would be.
Surely a second vote would on that one, single, final deal. That's what we are told it is by Europe.
It's a nonsense to suggest there would ever be need for a third vote.
I'm sure no-one saw this impasse with just 3 months left when the vote was taken.
This is still democracy if we now have a a second vote, because we now know so much more than we did two and a half years ago.
I think we need to put the deal to the public rather than have another vote on whether we now want to remain.
As you know it is the same on both sides.....Who hasn't accepted the result? More generalisations from yourself.
You like to stick labels on everyone due to your inability to think about something as large scale and nuanced as this issue.
Put everyone in a neat little box and repeat ill informed empty rhetoric ad nauseam
But we now know exactly what the deal is now. Two and a half years ago we had no idea what the deal would be.
Surely a second vote would on that one, single, final deal. That's what we are told it is by Europe.
It's a nonsense to suggest there would ever be need for a third vote.
I'm sure no-one saw this impasse with just 3 months left when the vote was taken.
This is still democracy if we now have a a second vote, because we now know so much more than we did two and a half years ago.
I think we need to put the deal to the public rather than have another vote on whether we now want to remain.
You really are in complete denial about the reality the country finds itself in.
Britain cannot get this deal through Parliament and the government therefore, needs to break the deadlock by deferring to the public again. Something needs to be done and right now, the EU has said it won’t renegotiate the Brexit deal so something drastic needs to be done. So, a general election won’t change the position we’re in whether or not Corbyn or May, or a new Tory leader is in charge. The Government cannot carry on like this.
May’s Brexit deal isn’t a real Brexit, and no one voted for a no deal. Even Brexiteers want to avoid a no deal Brexit. That isn’t what the people voted for either. If the public knew we’d be in this scenario it’s very unlikely they would’ve voted Leave. You and I both know that. Or, if you do believe that, why are you dead set against another referendum? What’s changed?
The last paragraph of yours exposes why you’re dead set against a referendum. You belief a second referendum would reverse the first decision. You don’t really care about the democratic ‘will of people’, only that your side won. That’s hypocritical in my estimation.
The argument that you’re denying a people’s vote with another people’s vote is just a plain stupid argument.
But we now know exactly what the deal is now. Two and a half years ago we had no idea what the deal would be.
Surely a second vote would on that one, single, final deal. That's what we are told it is by Europe.
It's a nonsense to suggest there would ever be need for a third vote.
I'm sure no-one saw this impasse with just 3 months left when the vote was taken.
This is still democracy if we now have a a second vote, because we now know so much more than we did two and a half years ago.
I think we need to put the deal to the public rather than have another vote on whether we now want to remain.
Why is it a nonsense remainers won't accept the vote? I voted remain and I would accept it.The referendum wasn't about any so-called 'deal', it was about whether Britain remains or leaves and leave won.
It's nonsense to suggest that remainers will accept the result of any vote that goes against their wishes. They never have and they never will.
The same is true of every government that has ever been elected, so let's have a general election every two and a half years so we can reverse the vote.
I'm not in denial, I know the country finds itself in a bad state.
I'm still yet to hear a good argument for another referendum, so far none of them make sense.
For democracy to exist the original vote needs to be implemented. I stand by that and I think denying that vote by saying we need another one is not only people still not accepting the vote, but it's the same form of arrogance that lost remain the vote the first time round.
I've repeatedly said I'm more than happy for another referendum in 10 or so years time when Brexit has been done and we really know now things are. Unlike you I would be prepared to accept the result once we've lived it out and it does indeed lead to the apocolypse. That doesn't mean that it's ok to call it off before it's even been given a chance because people on the other side cannot accept the original democracy.
A hard-core of remainers telling everyone else that leave voters have changed their mind means absolutely nothing.
I was generally very on the fence leading up to the vote but got so much shit for trying to openly discuss a leave possibility. It's pushed me away even further since then too.
I know it comes from both sides though, but the problem is that most people cannot see that. They believe they are right and everyone else is wrong.
Leave voters were racist, think, uneducated, didn't know what they were voting for... 2 years later they are still not allowed to have their victory because people on the other side are stamping their feet.
Some people can see things from both sides, you can't. To overturn this result would prove to a lot of people that you're not allowed to leave the EU too. It's a disaster.
So what do you advocate? Leave with no deal?How is it nonsense? You are basing the idea that we know more now than we did then on the latest opinion polls. So the second referendum is based on that poll. If subsequent polls reverse that then you are by your own argument saying another poll would be required. Personally I have learned nothing I did not already know
Putting the deal to the public has to include the premise that the voter wants to leave and also rejects the deal. The argument there are several versions of leave is also pretty absurd. Basically there were 3 criteria and leave voters probably believed in all of them
- Control of own laws (border control being one manifestation of that)
- We stop net contributing
- We rid ourselves of risk of further integration
Its ridiculous to assume that the second referendum would achieve anything. It would alienate large sections of society with in all probability very damaging consequences. The electorate gave 85% of its votes in the 2017 election to two parties committed to leaving. Again ignore the electorate at your peril.
Ah ok. That’s a useful answer. I agree but what makes you think that the conservatives would choose to invest in this way as they haven’t in the past. I say conservatives because they are in the main the no deal leaders. There is of course a workers unite against the ruling class reason for leaving the Eu too but although on the same side to leave the uk would look very different of they were in political controlMostly the latter, but I was just trying to make the point that this has happened either side of Brexit really.
So what do you advoctae? Leave with no deal?
So many politicians and political experts have said that would be disastrous.
You really think the EU will budge then?You negotiate further and secure a better deal - even if that means an extension of the date. Or offer the public the alternatives
Leave with this deal
Leave with a Norway style deal
Leave with no deal
You really think the EU will budge then?
I agree with most of your contention but none of those are possible without huge complications and cost to us as a country unless we agree how it will work with our 27 partners.How is it nonsense? You are basing the idea that we know more now than we did then on the latest opinion polls. So the second referendum is based on that poll. If subsequent polls reverse that then you are by your own argument saying another poll would be required. Personally I have learned nothing I did not already know
Putting the deal to the public has to include the premise that the voter wants to leave and also rejects the deal. The argument there are several versions of leave is also pretty absurd. Basically there were 3 criteria and leave voters probably believed in all of them
- Control of own laws (border control being one manifestation of that)
- We stop net contributing
- We rid ourselves of risk of further integration
Its ridiculous to assume that the second referendum would achieve anything. It would alienate large sections of society with in all probability very damaging consequences. The electorate gave 85% of its votes in the 2017 election to two parties committed to leaving. Again ignore the electorate at your peril.
I think the wording will change. So they can claim that nothing more has been offered or given but it will end up being a different offer.You really think the EU will budge then?
I agree with most of your contention but none of those are possible without huge complications and cost to us as a country unless we agree how it will work with our 27 partners.
So if those were the reasons someone should have pointed this out
Not when it comes to the impact on their individual economies and what about voting for something that’s not possible and only deciding it’s not possible after the vote and then once we know it’s not possible saying we can’t run the vote againThe 27 "partners" are actually one
You negotiate further and secure a better deal - even if that means an extension of the date. Or offer the public the alternatives
Leave with this deal
Leave with a Norway style deal
Leave with no deal
Not when it comes to the impact on their individual economies and what about voting for something that’s not possible and only deciding it’s not possible after the vote and then once we know it’s not possible saying we can’t run the vote again
I'm not in denial, I know the country finds itself in a bad state.
I'm still yet to hear a good argument for another referendum, so far none of them make sense.
For democracy to exist the original vote needs to be implemented. I stand by that and I think denying that vote by saying we need another one is not only people still not accepting the vote, but it's the same form of arrogance that lost remain the vote the first time round.
I've repeatedly said I'm more than happy for another referendum in 10 or so years time when Brexit has been done and we really know now things are. Unlike you I would be prepared to accept the result once we've lived it out and it does indeed lead to the apocolypse. That doesn't mean that it's ok to call it off before it's even been given a chance because people on the other side cannot accept the original democracy.
A hard-core of remainers telling everyone else that leave voters have changed their mind means absolutely nothing.
I was generally very on the fence leading up to the vote but got so much shit for trying to openly discuss a leave possibility. It's pushed me away even further since then too.
I know it comes from both sides though, but the problem is that most people cannot see that. They believe they are right and everyone else is wrong.
Leave voters were racist, think, uneducated, didn't know what they were voting for... 2 years later they are still not allowed to have their victory because people on the other side are stamping their feet.
Some people can see things from both sides, you can't. To overturn this result would prove to a lot of people that you're not allowed to leave the EU too. It's a disaster.
= Brexit.It is leaving
Think is it doesn't need to be 10 years.
If things go badly any of the political parties can put it in their manifesto and if the idea is popular that will be reflected in their GE performance though I'd imagine getting back in would have as many variables as getting out.
Ah ok. That’s a useful answer. I agree but what makes you think that the conservatives would choose to invest in this way as they haven’t in the past. I say conservatives because they are in the main the no deal leaders. There is of course a workers unite against the ruling class reason for leaving the Eu too but although on the same side to leave the uk would look very different of they were in political control
Why is it a nonsense remainers won't accept the vote? I voted remain and I would accept it.
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