The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (203 Viewers)

mrtrench · Nov 6, 2016

Liquid Gold said:
Wage growth in the UK is exactly the same as it is in Greece, poverty is real in this country and has been imposed by ideological zealot tory government. Leaving the EU and putting more power in the hands of the same government that has inflicted misery on millions is not the answer.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2...eece-at-bottom-of-wage-growth-league-tuc-oecd

Completely disagree.

1) Poverty is defined as an income percentage of the average (something like 60% of the median I think). Therefore poverty is constant and caused by nothing. By definition it always exists.
2) Nobody in this country is poor on global standards unless they choose to be so from their own actions.
3) If anything, lack of economic growth in the UK was caused by the reckless economic policies of Brown and Balls. The UK has still not recovered from his spending and credit bubble.

mrtrench · Nov 6, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
The fact is that we as a country are nett importers. That means tariffs do more harm than good to us.

Please explain why that is Tony, because I think the opposite.

Sick Boy · Nov 6, 2016

mrtrench said:
Completely disagree.

1) Poverty is defined as an income percentage of the average (something like 60% of the median I think). Therefore poverty is constant and caused by nothing. By definition it always exists.
2) Nobody in this country is poor on global standards unless they choose to be so from their own actions.
3) If anything, lack of economic growth in the UK was caused by the reckless economic policies of Brown and Balls. The UK has still not recovered from his spending and credit bubble.

There were 1.1 million 3 day emergency food supplies handed out by food banks in the UK between 2015-2016. Back in 2008 it was 25,000. It's all very easy to dismiss poverty when you're living in comfort.

It's only going to get worse with rising inflation and higher food prices.

mrtrench · Nov 6, 2016

I am not dismissing poverty. I really feel for all the people globally that have nothing and little hope or ability to do anything about it. But that is not the situation in the UK.

Why do you think it is that people are prepared to camp in Calais for a chance to come to the UK? Is France such an awful country? They want to come to the UK because we treat less fortunate people very well and there are massive opportunities to become wealthy if you so choose.

Sick Boy · Nov 6, 2016

mrtrench said:
I am not dismissing poverty. I really feel for all the people globally that have nothing and little hope or ability to do anything about it. But that is not the situation in the UK.

Why do you think it is that people are prepared to camp in Calais for a chance to come to the UK? Is France such an awful country? They want to come to the UK because we treat less fortunate people very well and there are massive opportunities to become wealthy if you so choose.

I cannot agree with you on that, I am afraid. The gap between the rich and poor within society is growing more, and more and those living in poverty would not agree that there are opportunities to become wealthy. Your post suggests that anyone can become rich in the UK but it is their own personal choice not to, or due to laziness, perhaps?

The poor and disabled who have said their benefits slashed and they themselves demonised would probably find your post offensive. What opportunities are there for these people? Why should they have their money cut and the rich receive greater tax breaks?

Ashdown · Nov 6, 2016

There is severe wealth inequality in the UK of course and the super rich and rich companies get away with disgusting amounts of tax avoidance.................this isn't unique to here though, this is a worldwide problem, show me a country that operates without these issues ?

mrtrench · Nov 6, 2016

Sick Boy said:
I cannot agree with you on that, I am afraid. The gap between the rich and poor within society is growing more, and more and those living in poverty would not agree that there are opportunities to become wealthy. Your post suggests that anyone can become rich in the UK but it is their own personal choice not to, or due to laziness, perhaps?

The poor and disabled who have said their benefits slashed and they themselves demonised would probably find your post offensive. What opportunities are there for these people? Why should they have their money cut and the rich receive greater tax breaks?

I'll reply fully later; have to work now. What I will say is that I don't believe that anyone can become wealthy; but there are opportunities for those with the fortune to be born with intelligence and the attitude to do so.

One more point: just because person A becomes more wealthy than person B, it doesn't mean that person B is deprived, has nothing to eat and nowhere to sleep. You cannot prove that some people are destitute by pointing to the growth in the wealth gap, it's a non-sequitur.

Liquid Gold · Nov 6, 2016

mrtrench said:
I am not dismissing poverty. I really feel for all the people globally that have nothing and little hope or ability to do anything about it. But that is not the situation in the UK.

Why do you think it is that people are prepared to camp in Calais for a chance to come to the UK? Is France such an awful country? They want to come to the UK because we treat less fortunate people very well and there are massive opportunities to become wealthy if you so choose.

It is I'm afraid, just because you're not aware of it doesn't mean it's not there. I know several people who work in social care and they despair at the state of our society, there are people in this country in 2016 who don't eat half of the week so their children can and they can pay their bills, the help that was once there has gone.

You also mentioned people choosing to be poor, where would you classify mentally ill people or those with learning difficulties. These people may not be able to help themselves and government budgets for helping them have been drastically cut, if they don't have any family then there is no support net for them. Figures show thousands more people in terrible situations, these exclude those who have fallen through the net or not sought assistance.

I agree with you that poverty classifications could be updated but that doesn't change the fact that thousands and thousands of people, children among them, are dangerously poor in this country. Use of food banks in a developed country is a disgrace.

This all coincides with a 'growing economy', this means there is money there but it's just not going to the people that need it. That means that there is a fundamental imbalance here, only our government can change that.

clint van damme · Nov 6, 2016

mrtrench said:
I'll reply fully later; have to work now. What I will say is that I don't believe that anyone can become wealthy; but there are opportunities for those with the fortune to be born with intelligence and the attitude to do so.

One more point: just because person A becomes more wealthy than person B, it doesn't mean that person B is deprived, has nothing to eat and nowhere to sleep. You cannot prove that some people are destitute by pointing to the growth in the wealth gap, it's a non-sequitur.

No it's not a non sequitur, there's a massive amount of evidence that unequal distribution of wealth leads to a whole raft of social issues going back to studies on the cause of the great depression in the states.
For those of us not living in a bubble there's also the anecdotal evidence that we see every day.

Sick Boy · Nov 6, 2016

Liquid Gold said:
That means that there is a fundamental imbalance here, only our government can change that.

That will never happen while they continue with the divide and rule strategy and they can place the blame at the feet of those entering the UK to work and pay taxes for the country's woes. I wonder who will be in line after the EU.

As I have said before, my girlfriend works here as a midwife and both my parents ended up going to university over here before working in the education sector. All 3 of them EU migrants and all 3 will have had a major impact on the futures of citizens of this country.

Sick Boy · Nov 6, 2016

clint van damme said:
No it's not a non sequitur, there's a massive amount of evidence that unequal distribution of wealth leads to a whole raft of social issues going back to studies on the cause of the great depression in the states.
For those of us not living in a bubble there's also the anecdotal evidence that we see every day.

I would estimate that I pass at least 8 rough sleepers or people living in tents in parks on my walk to work each morning.

SBAndy · Nov 6, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
This was the crux of the vote for me. Too many people voted based on taglines of let's take back control and let's spend it on the NHS instead thinking by voting out they'd get their cake and eat it. There's always a payoff and alot of people are going to be disappointed as I truly believe that they didn't understand what they were voting for. I'd be flabbergasted if we left the single market for the sake of free movement of people and question the sanity and intellect of anyone proposing it. If we can stay in the single market without free movement of people fine but to come out based on this one clause. Madness.

And things like this make me severely question why politics and economics are not part of the national curriculum. we dedicate an hour a week to religious studies (which by and large is useless) and don't teach these, as well as finance, all of which have a huge bearing on a future understanding of life.

oakey · Nov 6, 2016

Showing your ignorance there, sorry.
I teach Religious Education/Studies, Geography and sometimes History. We cover issues like this far more in Religious Studies. This very week I will be doing lessons on Should we help the poor? With year 9 in RE and Ethics, which the subject is now called in many schools. We will look, of course, at Christian teaching such as
Love your neighbour
If your neighbour is hungry feed him
The Good Samaritan, which is about attitudes to foreigners incidentally
Do not judge

The students debate these ideas about our responsibilities to one another which is the precursor for understanding politics. They are not ready to understand politics, sociology, economics until they understand the ethical underpinning of these subjects IMO

mrtrench · Nov 6, 2016

clint van damme said:
No it's not a non sequitur, there's a massive amount of evidence that unequal distribution of wealth leads to a whole raft of social issues going back to studies on the cause of the great depression in the states.
For those of us not living in a bubble there's also the anecdotal evidence that we see every day.

It was with the manufacture of class hatred and jealousy that Mao and Stalin came to power. Mao turned the peasants with no land against those with only the smallest amount, whilst all the time caring not a fig for the poor and lavishing himself with luxury. Absolutely, the wealthy should and must pay tax and I do not condone evasion. However looking at someone with money and deciding that they shouldn't have it makes for very bad politics and the kind of hatred that the Left claims to be against (whilst historically, in every case I'm aware of, benefiting from themselves). There will always be people born with greater ability and with greater motivation. So long as they pay their taxes and treat people working for them fairly (which can be handled by legislation) then IMO it is best to let them thrive. Ambitious people are the life blood of any economy, so long as they play fair.

It's natural that with wealth to invest, these people become more wealthy as time passes. They have already exhibited a talent for wealth-creation and the wealth will then build up at a greater rate than people with less ambition and/or ability who are on a payroll. It's the natural course of events that the wealth gap will grow. Better to ensure that the poorest have a safety net than to worry about the wealth gap.

mrtrench · Nov 6, 2016

A fuller reply to Sick Boy.

I'm extremely dubious of claims of hardship in the UK - we have a safety net. I'm extremely dubious of anecdotal evidence from the Left because it's the same old rhetoric they have used over and over again to gain power and fuck the countries they conquer (see previous posts). So I can only judge on personal experience and statistics.

IMO, people living without a home are either doing it by choice or mentally ill. I base this on several experiences:

- I once came across a homeless person and offered him a bed for the night. When I awoke in the morning I found that he had not slept at all but instead put on my record player at 78 speed without a disc and left it running whilst jotting complete nonsense in a notebook. He did leave in the morning but I count myself lucky that he didn't try to kill me. I agree that these people need more help but I don't know how to provide it. Care in the Community is better than Insane Asylums but what do you do with people who stop taking medication and take to the streets?

- All of the other encounters I have had with homeless people have left a sour taste in my mouth. I have offered food many times and in all cases they refuse it, asking instead for money so that they can spend it how they wish. Typically they are on alcohol or drugs. They are doing it to themselves. There is a limit to how much society can do for a person if they are determined to self-destruct. I have more to recount if necessary.

- I was born into poverty (60% of the median) and started my post university years in a council house. My neighbours were either mentally ill (see above); ambitious or feckless. Needless to say, every single one of the ambitious are now doing very well. I'm not in touch with the feckless.

- Some people I know are in poverty. In every single case it is their choice and they are amazingly expert at taking the piss out of benefits in any form that it takes. Compared to mine they have a very easy life. I suspect they may regret it when they can no longer earn money in the black market and the minimum pension kicks in, but that is their choice.

ccfcway · Nov 6, 2016

brought to you by the makers of

http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/brexit-sisu.69939/

clint van damme · Nov 7, 2016

mrtrench said:
It was with the manufacture of class hatred and jealousy that Mao and Stalin came to power. Mao turned the peasants with no land against those with only the smallest amount, whilst all the time caring not a fig for the poor and lavishing himself with luxury. Absolutely, the wealthy should and must pay tax and I do not condone evasion. However looking at someone with money and deciding that they shouldn't have it makes for very bad politics and the kind of hatred that the Left claims to be against (whilst historically, in every case I'm aware of, benefiting from themselves). There will always be people born with greater ability and with greater motivation. So long as they pay their taxes and treat people working for them fairly (which can be handled by legislation) then IMO it is best to let them thrive. Ambitious people are the life blood of any economy, so long as they play fair.

It's natural that with wealth to invest, these people become more wealthy as time passes. They have already exhibited a talent for wealth-creation and the wealth will then build up at a greater rate than people with less ambition and/or ability who are on a payroll. It's the natural course of events that the wealth gap will grow. Better to ensure that the poorest have a safety net than to worry about the wealth gap.

No one is saying that the entrepreneurs and risk takers shouldn't get their rewards but it's this current grab, grab,grab every last penny attitude which is causing so many problems. It is greed for the sake of greed. People who work deserve a fair wage for their labour but instead many people are been screwed into the ground.
You say that the wealthy should pay tax, but look at the meagre contributions some of them are making, it's scandalous.

You're on about the poor having a safety net, well even that's disappearing. Many working people are having to use food banks, is that the sort of society you want to live in? This is nothing to do with wealth envy this is to do with everyone receiving and contributing their fair share in order to create a better society.

Ashdown · Nov 7, 2016

http://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-for-all-his-flaws-trump-makes-some-powerful-points-10648665

Sums things up for many people !!

jimmyhillsfanclub · Nov 7, 2016

Ashdown said:
http://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-for-all-his-flaws-trump-makes-some-powerful-points-10648665

Sums things up for many people !!

There is no doubt that the 2008 crash...the cause of the crash......and more importantly the way it was dealt with (or not) has changed the political landscape & awoken a large proportion of folks who previously were simply not engaged with politics......

This is why I think Corbyn is an utter coward......he could have re-united the disaffected & dis-enfranchised working class of this nation with its natural political party & lead a successful brexit out the door on the left.....

.....as it is, the cowardly prick has enabled a hotch-potch of right wing mavericks to form a serendipitous government who are attempting to march us straight out the door on the right......

Captain Dart · Nov 7, 2016

Ashdown said:
http://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-for-all-his-flaws-trump-makes-some-powerful-points-10648665

Sums things up for many people !!

It does actually, excellent article.

Kingokings204 · Nov 7, 2016

Ashdown said:
http://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-for-all-his-flaws-trump-makes-some-powerful-points-10648665

Sums things up for many people !!

Yes he has got so far for a reason. I don't like the guy but instead of criticizing the guy how about look at how he has got there? American people are sick and tired of endless wars and people getting richer and richer doing no work. Etc etc. It's not fair in their eyes.

I see many similarities to brexit with American election. Say what you want about trump and I wouldn't vote for him but blimey if he didn't care about his country then why would he risk Assaination and all that hassle when he is a billionaire. That takes balls and fair play to him.

clint van damme · Nov 7, 2016

Kingokings204 said:
Yes he has got so far for a reason. I don't like the guy but instead of criticizing the guy how about look at how he has got there? American people are sick and tired of endless wars and people getting richer and richer doing no work. Etc etc. It's not fair in their eyes.

I see many similarities to brexit with American election. Say what you want about trump and I wouldn't vote for him but blimey if he didn't care about his country then why would he risk Assaination and all that hassle when he is a billionaire. That takes balls and fair play to him.

it's called ego mate.

chiefdave · Nov 7, 2016

Kingokings204 · Nov 7, 2016

clint van damme said:
it's called ego mate.

Yes I agree and why I liked your post. But he still is risking his life as many have said he would be assisinated within 6 months if he wins. That's pretty scary.

clint van damme · Nov 7, 2016

Kingokings204 said:
Yes I agree and why I liked your post. But he still is risking his life as many have said he would be assisinated within 6 months if he wins. That's pretty scary.

in my opinion, most of the people likely to assassinate a president are Trump supporters!

Ashdown · Nov 7, 2016

A German guy approaches a prostitute.

"I vish to buy sex viz you."

"OK," says the girl, "I'll charge £100 an hour."

"..ist goot, but I must varn you, I am a little kinky."

"No problem," she replies cautiously, "I can do a little kinky."

So off they go to the girl's flat, where the German produces four large bedsprings and a duck caller.

"I vant you to tie ze springs to each of your hans und knees."

The girl finds this most odd, but complies, fastening the springs as he had said, to her hands and knees.

"Now you vill get on your hans und knees."

She duly does this, balancing precariously on the springs.

"You vill please blow zis kwacker as I make love to you."

She finds it odd, but figures it's harmless (and the guy is paying.) She finds the sex is fantastic, as she
is bounced all over the room by the energetic German, all the time honking on the duck caller.

The climax is the most sensational that she has ever experienced and it is several minutes before she has
enough breath to say:

"That was totally amazing, what do you call that position ?"

"Ach," says the German .. . . "zat is ze"............." Four-sprung Duck Technique."

One for Martcov !!?? On a lighter note

fernandopartridge · Nov 7, 2016

Ashdown said:
A German guy approaches a prostitute.

"I vish to buy sex viz you."

"OK," says the girl, "I'll charge £100 an hour."

"..ist goot, but I must varn you, I am a little kinky."

"No problem," she replies cautiously, "I can do a little kinky."

So off they go to the girl's flat, where the German produces four large bedsprings and a duck caller.

"I vant you to tie ze springs to each of your hans und knees."

The girl finds this most odd, but complies, fastening the springs as he had said, to her hands and knees.

"Now you vill get on your hans und knees."

She duly does this, balancing precariously on the springs.

"You vill please blow zis kwacker as I make love to you."

She finds it odd, but figures it's harmless (and the guy is paying.) She finds the sex is fantastic, as she
is bounced all over the room by the energetic German, all the time honking on the duck caller.

The climax is the most sensational that she has ever experienced and it is several minutes before she has
enough breath to say:

"That was totally amazing, what do you call that position ?"

"Ach," says the German .. . . "zat is ze"............." Four-sprung Duck Technique."

One for Martcov !!?? On a lighter note

I liked it

skybluetony176 · Nov 7, 2016

clint van damme said:
in my opinion, most of the people likely to assassinate a president are Trump supporters!

That wouldn't surprise me in the least. I can see Trump having issues on delivering anything he's promised. He's going to struggle with backing of Congress, both sides of the house don't seem to like either him or his policies. Look at the trouble Obama has had with Congress and he was at least liked by his own side of the house.

It will be some religious nut over abortion issues or a redneck because the wall isn't getting built. Either way it will most likely be someone who voted for him.

Sick Boy · Nov 7, 2016

mrtrench said:
A fuller reply to Sick Boy.

I'm extremely dubious of claims of hardship in the UK - we have a safety net. I'm extremely dubious of anecdotal evidence from the Left because it's the same old rhetoric they have used over and over again to gain power and fuck the countries they conquer (see previous posts). So I can only judge on personal experience and statistics.

IMO, people living without a home are either doing it by choice or mentally ill. I base this on several experiences:

- I once came across a homeless person and offered him a bed for the night. When I awoke in the morning I found that he had not slept at all but instead put on my record player at 78 speed without a disc and left it running whilst jotting complete nonsense in a notebook. He did leave in the morning but I count myself lucky that he didn't try to kill me. I agree that these people need more help but I don't know how to provide it. Care in the Community is better than Insane Asylums but what do you do with people who stop taking medication and take to the streets?

- All of the other encounters I have had with homeless people have left a sour taste in my mouth. I have offered food many times and in all cases they refuse it, asking instead for money so that they can spend it how they wish. Typically they are on alcohol or drugs. They are doing it to themselves. There is a limit to how much society can do for a person if they are determined to self-destruct. I have more to recount if necessary.

- I was born into poverty (60% of the median) and started my post university years in a council house. My neighbours were either mentally ill (see above); ambitious or feckless. Needless to say, every single one of the ambitious are now doing very well. I'm not in touch with the feckless.

- Some people I know are in poverty. In every single case it is their choice and they are amazingly expert at taking the piss out of benefits in any form that it takes. Compared to mine they have a very easy life. I suspect they may regret it when they can no longer earn money in the black market and the minimum pension kicks in, but that is their choice.

I would genuinely like to invite you to a homeless shelter for young adults where I volunteer, you can listen to their stories and learn about some real life experiences. We're both on the south coast.

Sick Boy · Nov 7, 2016

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
.....as it is, the cowardly prick has enabled a hotch-potch of right wing mavericks to form a serendipitous government who are attempting to march us straight out the door on the right......

Did you really expect anything else?

Sick Boy · Nov 7, 2016

clint van damme said:
in my opinion, most of the people likely to assassinate a president are Trump supporters!

If an MP can be assassinated over here then it can certainly happen over there.

Liquid Gold · Nov 7, 2016

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ount-to-violations-of-disabled-peoples-rights

What are we saying this time? EU fault? They deserve it? They don't help themselves? It doesn't really happen? Or, in actual fact, our government has systematically destroyed the foundation of the welfare state that helps so many people.

Astute · Nov 8, 2016

mrtrench said:
IMO, people living without a home are either doing it by choice or mentally ill. I base this on several experiences:

That is such a narrow view.

There are more people and families than there are homes for. There are millions less council houses less than there used to be. So those on lower income have to go private. They struggle to get a deposit. There is a good chance that they don't have the credit rating needed. And if they can find somewhere should they have to hand out over half of their money just to have a roof over their head? When they do they live in poverty a lot of the time. Or how about when families split up? If they don't have kids under a certain age they are not eligible for help. Not even emergency housing.

Yes there are vulnerable people. There are those that don't want a permanent home. But the vast majority of people without a proper home do want one. But consecutive governments have done nothing for providing housing for those that need it. Now they are paying the price of paying extortionate rents.

I was dragged up on the most select council estates in Coventry. I agree with some of the comments made by yourself. Yes some people make them lifestyle choices. But times have changed. It is getting harder all the time to survive on the breadline.

It is like saying that all who voted exit are racists. Or all that voted remain are rich self centred people. Yes there are some of each. But the vast majority are not. We all have our own ideas on what we think is best. Carry on with the way things are going? To me things need to change. The poor are getting poorer. But is it worth the risk of leaving the EU? I think it is. Am I sure? No. Just like those who say that it will be catastrophic if we leave. They don't know that. But we can't carry on like this. And anyone who disagrees certainly are not any of those suffering now.

mrtrench · Nov 8, 2016

I agree with everything you say Astute. I wasn't talking about people in temporary accommodation or people who work and are just getting by paying huge rent. Indeed it is their plight that took me also down the route of voting Leave; I see huge problems down the line for young people in debt from University and with no hope to afford to buy. To be absolutely clear, I'm talking about the pictures of people on the streets - Dickensian type images bandied about of people unable to eat and without anywhere to stay - this is what I do not believe.

And I agree about not knowing - none of us know what will happen.

Sick Boy I have accepted your invitation and PM'd you.

Astute · Nov 8, 2016

mrtrench said:
I agree with everything you say Astute. I wasn't talking about people in temporary accommodation or people who work and are just getting by paying huge rent. Indeed it is their plight that took me also down the route of voting Leave; I see huge problems down the line for young people in debt from University and with no hope to afford to buy. To be absolutely clear, I'm talking about the pictures of people on the streets - Dickensian type images bandied about of people unable to eat and without anywhere to stay - this is what I do not believe.

And I agree about not knowing - none of us know what will happen.

Sick Boy I have accepted your invitation and PM'd you.

University debt isn't normally a problem. It only gets repaid after earnings reach a certain level. But then if they are earning just over the threshold it becomes a problem.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (203 Viewers)

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