The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (101 Viewers)

Astute · Mar 20, 2019

Deleted member 5849 said:
We're always in control of whether we choose to leave the EU without a deal.

If only it was that simple.

So who would have the final say? Because the majority of them in parliament struggle to decide on anything. Then we have a speaker who removed everything from his post in the past. But when it suits he uses the past. We have parties that are all split if they are big enough to make a difference. And with all this going on we need to be able to come to an agreement that is agreeable with the EU. And they only want everything to remain as it is now.

martcov · Mar 20, 2019

Astute said:
And if we do that the EU won't allow us to make trade deals with anyone else.

? Depends on the deal. Who else are we desperate to do deals with? USA: will rip us apart. China: already pissed off that we sent an aircraft carrier. They are massive in comparison to the UK India: the most protectionist country in the world according to some. No empire2.0 and so it goes on.

martcov · Mar 20, 2019

Astute said:
If only it was that simple.

So who would have the final say? Because the majority of them in parliament struggle to decide on anything. Then we have a speaker who removed everything from his post in the past. But when it suits he uses the past. We have parties that are all split if they are big enough to make a difference. And with all this going on we need to be able to come to an agreement that is agreeable with the EU. And they only want everything to remain as it is now.

The EU 27 have an agreement with the UK government. The UK government is trying to ratify the agreement. It cannot because of the UK Brexiteers and the DUP.

The EU 27 have been through 2 years of negotiations to agree the deal. They are not going to start from scratch again a couple of working days before the article 50 time limit ends. The ball is in the UK‘s court. Pass the deal, find a workable alternative to the backstop, hold a people’s vote or hold a general election. The UK decides. If not it is no deal. What part do you expect the EU to play?

Astute · Mar 20, 2019

martcov said:
People’s Vote is the name of the campaign for a second Brexit referendum campaign. „Remoaners“ is an insult from leavers with weak or non existent arguments.

People's vote tries to make it sound that the first referendum wasn't a people's vote. Remoaners isn't any worse if even as bad as calling leave voters thick. Yet you don't have a problem with this.

Astute · Mar 20, 2019

martcov said:
? Depends on the deal. Who else are we desperate to do deals with? USA: will rip us apart. China: already pissed off that we sent an aircraft carrier. They are massive in comparison to the UK India: the most protectionist country in the world according to some. No empire2.0 and so it goes on.

What have the two got to do with each other?

If we were tied to the EU with a trade deal would they allow us to make trade deals elsewhere? Yes or no.

Astute · Mar 20, 2019

martcov said:
The EU 27 have an agreement with the UK government. The UK government is trying to ratify the agreement. It cannot because of the UK Brexiteers and the DUP.

The EU 27 have been through 2 years of negotiations to agree the deal. They are not going to start from scratch again a couple of working days before the article 50 time limit ends. The ball is in the UK‘s court. Pass the deal, find a workable alternative to the backstop, hold a people’s vote or hold a general election. The UK decides. If not it is no deal. What part do you expect the EU to play?

I like the way you put all the blame on those who would want Brexit and the DUP.

The majority of MP's want to remain in the EU. If they wanted Mays deal it would have been voted through ages ago.

And now we have the speaker who is a remainer and is doing his best to stop there being a deal. With the vast majority being remain you need to look elsewhere for the problem.

martcov · Mar 20, 2019

Astute said:
I like the way you put all the blame on those who would want Brexit and the DUP.

The majority of MP's want to remain in the EU. If they wanted Mays deal it would have been voted through ages ago.

And now we have the speaker who is a remainer and is doing his best to stop there being a deal. With the vast majority being remain you need to look elsewhere for the problem.

The ERG and DUP are blocking May‘s deal, not the remainers. You need to look at the media,

martcov · Mar 20, 2019

Astute said:
What have the two got to do with each other?

If we were tied to the EU with a trade deal would they allow us to make trade deals elsewhere? Yes or no.

Depends on the deal, so how can anyone know?

martcov · Mar 20, 2019

Astute said:
People's vote tries to make it sound that the first referendum wasn't a people's vote. Remoaners isn't any worse if even as bad as calling leave voters thick. Yet you don't have a problem with this.

Whether or not people’s vote is designed to make it sound like a first vote ( it would be the first vote on a Brexit we can see ), there is no comparison to an insult to remainers. People‘s vote was chosen by remainers.

Astute · Mar 20, 2019

martcov said:
The ERG and DUP are blocking May‘s deal, not the remainers. You need to look at the media,

Is that right?

So explain how about 80% of MP's are remainers but the deal can't get anywhere near 50% of the vote. The DUP is 10 votes out of over 500. So less than 2% of the vote. Yet you blame them.

martcov · Mar 20, 2019

Astute said:
Is that right?

So explain how about 80% of MP's are remainers but the deal can't get anywhere near 50% of the vote. The DUP is 10 votes out of over 500. So less than 2% of the vote. Yet you blame them.

Together with ERG. More comprehension difficulties.

Astute · Mar 20, 2019

martcov said:
Whether or not people’s vote is designed to make it sound like a first vote ( it would be the first vote on a Brexit we can see ), there is no comparison to an insult to remainers. People‘s vote was chosen by remainers.

And calling people thick isn't an insult?

And o to another referendum that you say we could see. Are you saying both sides wouldn't lie again?

Would you be happy to have another referendum where there is a big chance of leaving without a deal if leave got the most votes again?

It is simple. If there was another referendum it would have to be winner takes all. Leave would mean leave. Do you have faith in parliament to make a leave deal that the EU would agree with? What if it was leave with a deal against leave without a deal on the ballot paper and without won?

You seem to be willing to risk all. You try to blame the DUP when all they are after is exactly what you are after. And there isn't that many of them either.

You need to take a step back and have a rethink. Because what you are calling for has big risks.

Astute · Mar 20, 2019

martcov said:
Together with ERG. More comprehension difficulties.

So how about answering the question. How can you blame the leavers or the DUP when about 80% of MP's including the DUP are remainers?

martcov · Mar 20, 2019

Astute said:
People's vote is the same as remoaners and similar.

We already had the people's vote. It was what put us into this predicament. Now it is an MP thing.

I still think that if the vote went ahead that it would be very close. And I have a feeling it would go the way of leave again. There is a lot of people not allowed to vote. But when asked in a poll they are allowed to say remain.

2nd Referendum Voting Intentions:

Remain Vs Govt. Deal

Remain: 61%

Govt. Deal: 39%

Remain Vs No Deal

Remain: 57%

No Deal: 43%

Via @YouGov, 14-15 March

All these people who are not allowed to vote distorting opinion polls.. apparently...

martcov · Mar 20, 2019

Astute said:
So how about answering the question. How can you blame the leavers or the DUP when about 80% of MP's including the DUP are remainers?

80% didn’t vote against May’s deal. So what are you on about?

tisza · Mar 20, 2019

Astute said:
So how about answering the question. How can you blame the leavers or the DUP when about 80% of MP's including the DUP are remainers?

Can't claim DUP are remainers. Always been a eurosceptic party due to an underlying belief / fear that EU ultimately wants a united Ireland. DUP objection is not to leaving but any possible different treatment from rest of UK.

Sick Boy · Mar 20, 2019

Astute said:
People's vote tries to make it sound that the first referendum wasn't a people's vote. Remoaners isn't any worse if even as bad as calling leave voters thick. Yet you don't have a problem with this.

You seem to though, yet it’s fine for you to do

Sick Boy · Mar 20, 2019

Astute said:
So how about answering the question. How can you blame the leavers or the DUP when about 80% of MP's including the DUP are remainers?

What are going on about? The DUP is a eurosceptic party..and then you go on about only speaking the truth haha

Astute · Mar 20, 2019

tisza said:
Can't claim DUP are remainers. Always been a eurosceptic party due to an underlying belief / fear that EU ultimately wants a united Ireland. DUP objection is not to leaving but any possible different treatment from rest of UK.

Are you trying to say that the DUP wants out of the EU?

If not what are you trying to say?

tisza · Mar 20, 2019

martcov said:
2nd Referendum Voting Intentions:

Remain Vs Govt. Deal

Remain: 61%

Govt. Deal: 39%

Remain Vs No Deal

Remain: 57%

No Deal: 43%

Via @YouGov, 14-15 March

All these people who are not allowed to vote distorting opinion polls.. apparently...

Link please

martcov · Mar 20, 2019

Astute said:
And calling people thick isn't an insult?

And o to another referendum that you say we could see. Are you saying both sides wouldn't lie again?

Would you be happy to have another referendum where there is a big chance of leaving without a deal if leave got the most votes again?

It is simple. If there was another referendum it would have to be winner takes all. Leave would mean leave. Do you have faith in parliament to make a leave deal that the EU would agree with? What if it was leave with a deal against leave without a deal on the ballot paper and without won?

You seem to be willing to risk all. You try to blame the DUP when all they are after is exactly what you are after. And there isn't that many of them either.

You need to take a step back and have a rethink. Because what you are calling for has big risks.

I have never said all leavers are thick. I have never said it is ok to call all leavers thick.

I have never said it is only the DUP blocking Brexit.

If you read what I did say about the referendum, you will see that I suggested 2 questions. 1. remain or leave 2. if leave: to leave with a) May’s deal, or b) with no deal.

Both questions to be answered for the vote to count. Q 2 to be carried out by parliament. May’s deal has been agreed with the EU. It is principally the ERG and the DUP refusing to back it. They would have to follow the people’s choice if the vote was as I put forward.

The biggest risk now is „no deal“. That would still be the case.

tisza · Mar 20, 2019

Astute said:
Are you trying to say that the DUP wants out of the EU?

If not what are you trying to say?

Yes DUP wants out of Europe. Remove the backstop or put a time limit on it and they'll vote to leave.
DUP are still a right wing hardline Unionist party.

martcov · Mar 20, 2019

tisza said:
Link please

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/zrgautmsk5/PV_190315_Results_w.pdf

Astute · Mar 20, 2019

Sick Boy said:
What are going on about? The DUP is a eurosceptic party..and then you go on about only speaking the truth haha

And as usual you think you know everything but you don't.

The DUP is the same as others. Yes eurosceptics. But what they have since found out is that the odds are it would create a hard border. And that is the last thing they want. And then you have everything else that could go wrong for NI.

It is similar to lots of people who want out of the EU but have found out what it exactly entails.

Your problem is that if the headlines agree with what you want you are not interested in the details.

Sick Boy · Mar 20, 2019

Astute said:
And as usual you think you know everything but you don't.

The DUP is the same as others. Yes eurosceptics. But what they have since found out is that the odds are it would create a hard border. And that is the last thing they want. And then you have everything else that could go wrong for NI.

It is similar to lots of people who want out of the EU but have found out what it exactly entails.

Your problem is that if the headlines agree with what you want you are not interested in the details.

Haha yeah of course, you make it up as you go along. I’ve never tried to pretend that I know everything, unlike some people.

Sick Boy · Mar 20, 2019

Astute said:
And as usual you think you know everything but you don't.

The DUP is the same as others. Yes eurosceptics. But what they have since found out is that the odds are it would create a hard border. And that is the last thing they want. And then you have everything else that could go wrong for NI.

It is similar to lots of people who want out of the EU but have found out what it exactly entails.

Your problem is that if the headlines agree with what you want you are not interested in the details.

The DUP are also more interested in preserving the union of GB and NI over an open Irish border

Grendel · Mar 20, 2019

Bercow is an unelected preening self publicist

Astute · Mar 20, 2019

tisza said:
Yes DUP wants out of Europe. Remove the backstop or put a time limit on it and they'll vote to leave.
DUP are still a right wing hardline Unionist party.

And if we leave the EU the odds are Ireland would end up with a border somewhere. They would be separated from the rest of the UK. Are you saying that it is what they want?

Astute · Mar 20, 2019

Sick Boy said:
The DUP are also more interested in preserving the union of GB and NI over an open Irish border

How about being realistic for once?

Astute · Mar 20, 2019

Here is one from the BBC.

What is DUP's Brexit talks hope?

They want to leave with a deal. Leaving without a deal would be very bad for Ireland. And they don't want Corbyn to become PM because of his links to the IRA.

tisza · Mar 20, 2019

martcov said:
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/zrgautmsk5/PV_190315_Results_w.pdf

Exactly where this type of polling gets us into a mess. This poll is for people's vote yet another yougov poll on same dates for the Times shows only 37% saying have a referendum and stay in EU is a good thing.
Problem with so many of these polls is they find the results the customer who commissions them wants

Astute · Mar 20, 2019

tisza said:
Exactly where this type of polling gets us into a mess. This poll is for people's vote yet another yougov poll on same dates for the Times shows only 37% saying have a referendum and stay in EU is a good thing.
Problem with so many of these polls is they find the results the customer who commissions them wants

The answer they get depends on the question asked. A couple of different words can make a massive difference.

SkyBlueDom26 · Mar 20, 2019

Grendel said:
Bercow is an unelected preening self publicist

He's a twat

martcov · Mar 20, 2019

SkyBlueDom26 said:
He's a twat

He’s a conservative.

But, tbf, it was his job to make a ruling based on convention. He did and you didn’t like it. Doesn’t automatically make him a twat though.

martcov · Mar 20, 2019

tisza said:
Exactly where this type of polling gets us into a mess. This poll is for people's vote yet another yougov poll on same dates for the Times shows only 37% saying have a referendum and stay in EU is a good thing.
Problem with so many of these polls is they find the results the customer who commissions them wants

That was a different question.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (101 Viewers)

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