The Ground Deal (2 Viewers)

[RegTheDonk]

Its significantly worse than the previous deal with wasps

We don't get any of the pie money either

No coincidence the prem package is a five year thing, and the stadium deal is a 5 year thing

How does this compare to other clubs who rent? Is it the going rate or are we getting properly shafted? And if the latter, is it because FG have us over a barrel as we have no real alternative, or is it the best they can get away with at this time (perhaps part of a longer term plan)? Sorry for so many questions.

 

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[Hobo]

Well energy bills have soared massively for venues. So I think we will be paying more than we paid Wasps. I think Fraser's were tough on other revenues back to the club reading between the lines. One of the reasons it took so long to sort out.

 

[Grendel]

So question is: a decade later, was the rent strike worth it?

Pros:
- Broke £1.2m lease
- Ultimately did bust ACL/Wasps
- Arguable bunker mentality has helped
- Anything else?

Cons:
- Fan split
- Reduced income/increased rent while away
- Lost chance at 50% share
- Not likely to ever bust Frasers
- Lease > Licence

the initial lease wasn’t tangible for anyone

The actual cost was £1.5m with no access other than matchdays no revenues from match related activity

The other problem was ACl was made up from a woefully inadequate council and an egotistical fool - they also only had a lease that from day one was worthless do the whole management company - and therefore the football club - was totally unsustainable and not saleable

Neither would have survived

 

[shmmeee]

the initial lease wasn’t tangible for anyone

The actual cost was £1.5m with no access other than matchdays no revenues from match related activity

The other problem was ACl was made up from a woefully inadequate council and an egotistical fool - they also only had a lease that from day one was worthless do the whole management company - and therefore the football club - was totally unsustainable and not saleable

Neither would have survived

So you’re saying it was a success?

 

[Grendel]

So you’re saying it was a success?

Im saying the original lease was a dumb lease that would have bankrupted ACl and also the football club.

Setting a 50 year lease was the most stupid idea imaginable

 

[shmmeee]

Im saying the original lease was a dumb lease that would have bankrupted ACl and also the football club.

Setting a 50 year lease was the most stupid idea imaginable

Cool, so in answer to my question, was the rent strike worth it?

 

[Grendel]

Cool, so in answer to my question, was the rent strike worth it?

Its not cool it’s a fact - I can see why the council gave it that lease as it made it unsalable. If you define success as still existing as a club then yea it was as it got rid of the morons at the council and forced them to offer a commercial leased a buyer could fund against

 

[shmmeee]

It’s ll not cool it’s a fact - I can see why the council gave it that lease as it made it unsalable. If you define success as still existing as a club then yea it was as it got rid of the morons at the council and forced them to offer a commercial leased a buyer could fund against

I’ll put you down as undecided.

 

[Grendel]

I’ll put you down as undecided.

No it had to be done or we wouldn’t have a club

 

[bigfatronssba]

So question is: a decade later, was the rent strike worth it?

Pros:
- Broke £1.2m lease
- Ultimately did bust ACL/Wasps
- Arguable bunker mentality has helped
- Anything else?

Cons:
- Fan split
- Reduced income/increased rent while away
- Lost chance at 50% share
- Not likely to ever bust Frasers
- Lease > Licence

We’re probably paying more than £1.2m now anyway and if we hadn’t bust ACL then there never would’ve been a Wasps or Frasers.

 

[Specs WT-R75]

We’re probably paying more than £1.2m now anyway and if we hadn’t bust ACL then there never would’ve been a Wasps or Frasers.

... and could have bought back half the 1.2m rent by buying back the Higgs shares.

 

[Nick]

... and could have bought back half the 1.2m rent by buying back the Higgs shares.

And the massive debt

 

[Specs WT-R75]

And the massive debt

Add up all the costs of not buying the stadium (lost revenues, the rent we paid to blues, the rent we paid to wasps, the rent we are paying to FG... would it have been much different in the long run. Especially when you consider that ACL were prepared to offer reduced terms before we eventually did break the lease.

Owning the stadium outright should always have been a priority.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

And the massive debt

Yeah, and not a great lease length. Nobody bought at that deal for a reason.

 

[bigfatronssba]

When taking on a public body like the council, the key is to get the public on side.

Sisu however decided to piss off the public first, and then try and take on the council.

How that hedge fund stays in business is beyond me. They clearly have no idea how basic human psychology works.

 

[COVKIDSNEVERQUIT]

Is it possible that the increase in cost of the corporate boxes is because Frasers have increased how much they charge us for access to them?

Sounds about right

 

[bigfatronssba]

Yeah, and not a great lease length. Nobody bought at that deal for a reason.

Yeah but that is where Fisher made a tit of himself.

When Wasps bought the ground he said like a sulky child that he wouldn’t want the ground under those terms.

Next minute he’s claiming Wasps underpaid.

Both those statements couldn’t be correct

 

[Nick]

Yeah but that is where Fisher made a tit of himself.

When Wasps bought the ground he said like a sulky child that he wouldn’t want the ground under those terms.

Next minute he’s claiming Wasps underpaid.

Both those statements couldn’t be correct

That's because wasps didn't buy it under those terms.

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

Yeah but that is where Fisher made a tit of himself.

When Wasps bought the ground he said like a sulky child that he wouldn’t want the ground under those terms.

Next minute he’s claiming Wasps underpaid.

Both those statements couldn’t be correct

It was 2 arguments
The 50 year lease - shit terms
When the council extended it to a 250 year lease - they’d grossly underpaid

 

[bigfatronssba]

That's because wasps didn't buy it under those terms.

So Fishers initial comments were wrong then?

 

[bigfatronssba]

It was 2 arguments
The 50 year lease - shit terms
When the council extended it to a 250 year lease - they’d grossly underpaid

The fact that it basically destroyed Wasps suggests they didn’t underpay

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

The fact that it basically destroyed Wasps suggests they didn’t underpay

Wasps couldn’t run a piss up in a brewery - this is why they were destroyed, they did underpay for a 250 year lease

 

[bigfatronssba]

Wasps couldn’t run a piss up in a brewery - this is why they were destroyed, they did underpay for a 250 year lease

So presumably Frasers underpaid as well?

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

So presumably Frasers underpaid as well?

They paid 17m for assets out of administration.

wasps paid 6.5 from a local authority

 

[bigfatronssba]

They paid 17m for assets out of administration.

wasps paid 6.5 from a local authority

Wasps didn’t pay £6.5m

If they did they would still exist now!

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

Wasps didn’t pay £6.5m

If they did they would still exist now!

Look on the SBT mythbusting page

Myth Busting - Facts about SISU, Ricoh, CCC etc etc

SBT - Fact or Fiction, Myth or Truth (Part 1) - Coventry MAD I am the first to moan, so I want to be the first to say fair play! It just keeps the things there in black and white and to the point to clear up a few of them and then some facts to back them up! It's how it should be. Just things...

www.skybluestalk.co.uk

- The sale was two separate purchases of roughly £2.77m each. The cost of purchasing a company is the cost of purchasing the voting shares.
- That put the sale value of the shares in ACL at £5.54m at that time


They then paid £1m to extend the lease to 250 years

 

[Ashdown]

The original cost of building the stadium was circa £112 million plus cost of land plus decontamination costs ? Then there has been improvement and upkeep costs?
I wonder how the rental costs would compare had we taken out huge loans to build and own and maintain ?

 

[bigfatronssba]

Look on the SBT mythbusting page

Myth Busting - Facts about SISU, Ricoh, CCC etc etc

SBT - Fact or Fiction, Myth or Truth (Part 1) - Coventry MAD I am the first to moan, so I want to be the first to say fair play! It just keeps the things there in black and white and to the point to clear up a few of them and then some facts to back them up! It's how it should be. Just things...

www.skybluestalk.co.uk

- The sale was two separate purchases of roughly £2.77m each. The cost of purchasing a company is the cost of purchasing the voting shares.
- That put the sale value of the shares in ACL at £5.54m at that time


They then paid £1m to extend the lease to 250 years

You’re not including the debt in that

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

You’re not including the debt in that

Didn’t have to - they paid 6.5m. They bought a company for 6.5m with a loan on it

 

[Specs WT-R75]

Look on the SBT mythbusting page

Myth Busting - Facts about SISU, Ricoh, CCC etc etc

SBT - Fact or Fiction, Myth or Truth (Part 1) - Coventry MAD I am the first to moan, so I want to be the first to say fair play! It just keeps the things there in black and white and to the point to clear up a few of them and then some facts to back them up! It's how it should be. Just things...

www.skybluestalk.co.uk

- The sale was two separate purchases of roughly £2.77m each. The cost of purchasing a company is the cost of purchasing the voting shares.
- That put the sale value of the shares in ACL at £5.54m at that time


They then paid £1m to extend the lease to 250 years

...and then to clear the debt cost another 14m... so the total marketable value of the asset was in the region of 20m unencumbered...

 

[NorthernWisdom]

The one I always remember was Fisher saying that Wasps had overpaid for the ground. He was actually right on that.

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

...and then to clear the debt cost another 14m... so the total marketable value of the asset was in the region of 20m unencumbered...

But that wasn’t the question - Wasps bought a 250 year lease for 6.5m

It was revalued at the time to be 50m, this is how they got the 35m bond

 

[bigfatronssba]

Didn’t have to - they paid 6.5m. They bought a company for 6.5m with a loan on it

That’s like saying you can buy a house for £10k
Yes you’ll have £200k mortgage, but you’ve bought a house with £10k

 

[olderskyblue]

The one I always remember was Fisher saying that Wasps had overpaid for the ground. He was actually right on that.

Not if you already plan to not pay £100m to others….

and did they pay all that was owed on the ground anyway?

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

That’s like saying you can buy a house for £10k
Yes you’ll have £200k mortgage, but you’ve bought a house with £10k

you asked what they paid for it it was £6.5m they used the value of ACL (50m) to sell bonds in it. And loaded it with 35m debt. If anything using your analogy they re-mortgaged it. They didn’t pay the 35m back. So yeah they paid 6.5m

thats what the judicial review was about - they paid 6.5m for an asset worth allegedly 50m