The never ending court story (1 Viewer)

[Nick]

There is of course one obvious solution, And that is for sisu to sell ccfc to any interested party, the new owners would then be free to negotiate a future tenancy agreement without the bad blood and negative history that will follow sisu.
I’m sure that would be acceptable to all, and I really can’t see what sisu would have to gain from hanging on to the club, now that the legal circus has ground to a halt.

Is this where everybody keeps shouting "just go" thinking it will do anything? Should we expect Hoffman to appear again soon?

 

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[oldskyblue58]

Aren't there matchday costs as well on top of that rather than just the flat rent?

yes ..... i was just keeping it to the fixed rental cost. Match day costs can be varied to some degree. You can argue the club has to pay match day costs where ever they are, the increase is the mark up or not that Wasps put on it. No they cant be ignored but yet to see anyone clearly define what is included and what is not

 

[oldskyblue58]

Rent at £1m plus match day and i think most people would be persuaded CCFC are being forced out and are best to walk away from it

 

[Nick]

yes ..... i was just keeping it to the fixed rental cost. Match day costs can be varied to some degree. You can argue the club has to pay match day costs where ever they are, the increase is the mark up or not that Wasps put on it. No they cant be ignored but yet to see anyone clearly define what is included and what is not

The club would need to pay matchday costs whereever, not disputing that and I am not saying they shouldn't.

Just pointing it out before the whole "they barely pay anything anyway" approach is taken....

 

[fatso]

surely an untrustworthy tenant is better than none in a time when you need cash? You can then cast them aside when you are in a position where you don't need them?? Better the devil and all that...

Whatever rent you receive in the short term are likely to be dwarfed by the legal costs you would be hit with in any future legal actions from sisu.
If you were running a buisiness the risks would have to be considered.

 

[Colin Steins Smile]

Why should ccfc pay more if the terms are the same? What would we be getting for the extra rent?

To help them reduce the cost risks in the litigation that the clubs owners are inflicting on them

 

[ceetee]

Weren't they in that position last year? Won't they be in that position every year? Is that not why the councils decision to sell to wasps is absurd and ridiculous? That our club is now beholden to a London rugby club.

Yes to all of that.
The difference is that our owners have persisted with court action, which in the perception of those whose hatred for SISU is greater than their affection for CCFC, pushes Wasps a little bit further up the moral high ground

 

[SkyBlueZack]

To help them reduce the cost risks in the litigation that the clubs owners are inflicting on them

Are costs not claimed? I'm sure before siu have had to pay the council. As an interested party and not the defendant, won't those costs also be lower?

 

[fatso]

Weren't they in that position last year? Won't they be in that position every year? Is that not why the councils decision to sell to wasps is absurd and ridiculous? That our club is now beholden to a London rugby club.

The decision to sell the ground was taken because sisu had made public their intention to buy land and build their own stadium. What do you think the council were going to do with an empty stadium?

 

[christonabike]

The argument about selling the stadium has been done to death a thousand times. The question is will we stay or will we go. I think we will get an improved term this time i.e 3 years but no doubt Wasps will want a few more quid and an increase in rent if we ever get promoted. What would a half share of the Ricoh cost realistically?
Would be a better option for CCFC as at least they have something rather than paying rent every year or do we think the Ricoh is a money pit and its best to keep renting?

 

[ceetee]

The decision to sell the ground was taken because sisu had made public their intention to buy land and build their own stadium. What do you think the council were going to do with an empty stadium?

But surely most of us didn't believe SISU and assumed it was just a negotiating stance.
Or do some people only believe SISU when it suits their argument?.
And by the way, the Coucil Leader said that ACL was viable without CCFC...did everybody believe her or was it just a negotiating stance?

 

[fatso]

How was the Ricoh ever going to be viable without a tenant? You’d need a pop concert every week to make any money, and that wasn’t ever going to happen.
So the council were stuck with an empty sports arena and no viable long term income.

Whether you believed sisu or not, they uped the stakes when they moved the club to Northampton, they clearly didn’t think that any one else would be interested in buying the stadium, but Wasps came along and offered the council an easy get out. In short sisu gambled and lost. That’s hardly the fault of the council.

 

[stupot07]

We don't have to get anything for the extra rent/
Wasps are in a position where they can say take it or leave it

They're not though are they? Constantly losing money, bonds to pay back, potential destabilisation of the valuation of the arena. They can't afford to lose £100k+ they currently get from us.

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[ceetee]

I think CCFC have more to lose than £100k.

 

[ceetee]

How was the Ricoh ever going to be viable without a tenant? You’d need a pop concert every week to make any money, and that wasn’t ever going to happen.
So the council were stuck with an empty sports arena and no viable long term income.

Whether you believed sisu or not, they uped the stakes when they moved the club to Northampton, they clearly didn’t think that any one else would be interested in buying the stadium, but Wasps came along and offered the council an easy get out. In short sisu gambled and lost. That’s hardly the fault of the council.

So you agree the council was lying.
SISU were wrong - I'm not disputing that, and I will not defend their strategy, but when the council sold out to Wasps it was CCFC that suffered long term damage, not SISU. Every action on either side before that sale was reversible. Selling out to Wasps was, in the short term, an irreversible action. If CCFC fold, SISU will survive.

 

[Limey]

Surprisingly hard to find, actually! Averaging around 15k.

Aviva Premiership

So still more than us then (including the much spoke about freebies). Got to turn that around.

 

[Colin Steins Smile]

Are costs not claimed? I'm sure before siu have had to pay the council. As an interested party and not the defendant, won't those costs also be lower?

They are....and most companies will have insurance to cover an element of these costs. However, Wasps staff time would not be covered and they may wish to seek redress for the indirect costs incurred. Any legal action can cause significant disruption to daily business and achievement of strategic and business outcomes.

 

[fatso]

So you agree the council was lying.
SISU were wrong - I'm not disputing that, and I will not defend their strategy, but when the council sold out to Wasps it was CCFC that suffered long term damage, not SISU. Every action on either side before that sale was reversible. Selling out to Wasps was, in the short term, an irreversible action. If CCFC fold, SISU will survive.

I certainly don’t believe the council spokesman who said the arena and ACL were viable without ccfc, You only have to ask where the revenue streams were going to come from to see that the financial case was flawed.

I’m sure in hindsight all sides would of done things differently, but when sisu moved the club away from Coventry, then the councils responsibilities were solely down to the rate payers of the city, not the fans of the club (regrettably)
No one could foresee Wasps arriving on the scene, but when they did, they took full advantage of the devalued arena, (Devalued due to having no tenant and therefor no regular income).
To the council, Wasps must of looked like Father Christmas, the tooth fairy, and the fairy godmother, all rolled into one. Solving all the councils headaches in one go! As I’ve already said, The sale to wasps really pulled the rug from under sisu, They gambled on the council collapsing, but instead they got stung.

 

[Nick]

I certainly don’t believe the council spokesman who said the arena and ACL were viable without ccfc, You only have to ask where the revenue streams were going to come from to see that the financial case was flawed.

I’m sure in hindsight all sides would of done things differently, but when sisu moved the club away from Coventry, then the councils responsibilities were solely down to the rate payers of the city, not the fans of the club (regrettably)
No one could foresee Wasps arriving on the scene, but when they did, they took full advantage of the devalued arena, (Devalued due to having no tenant and therefor no regular income).
To the council, Wasps must of looked like Father Christmas, the tooth fairy, and the fairy godmother, all rolled into one. Solving all the councils headaches in one go! As I’ve already said, The sale to wasps really pulled the rug from under sisu, They gambled on the council collapsing, but instead they got stung.

It was the council leader wasn't it?

 

[fatso]

It was the council leader wasn't it?

Quite possibly, I can’t remember exactly. Whoever it was, it seemed a very strange statement, and there has never been any information forthcoming about how ACL was going to attract enough people to an empty stadium, or who was going to stay in the hotels rooms every week, or who was going to be attracted to the casino etc.

 

[Captain Dart]

It was the council leader wasn't it?

Yes and that was stretching the truth at best. I think the accounts spread the casino licence fee (and possibly other one off income) over several years, so rather than posting one good year followed by 5 bad years it looked like 5 half decent years. This I believe is a normal accounting practise.

However the other thing I remember is Lucas saying very clearly (Oct 2013) that the matter of the Arena would be resolved, this resulted in Wasps buying the Arena lease about a year later. My gut feeling is that Lucas already knew about Wasps interest at that stage and was giving SISU one last chance before starting talks with Wasps in earnest.

Spoiler: Lucas statement

But let me be clear, the clock is ticking and time is moving on. I will not lead the Council into a state of paralysis around this issue. Difficult times call for difficult decisions. If this matter cannot be resolved by the turn of the year, then I and all of my colleagues on the Labour Group on Coventry City Council will look to put in place a process which ensures the best possible deal for the people of Coventry in relation to the Ricoh Arena.

 

[letsallsingtogether]

How was the Ricoh ever going to be viable without a tenant? You’d need a pop concert every week to make any money, and that wasn’t ever going to happen.
So the council were stuck with an empty sports arena and no viable long term income.

Whether you believed sisu or not, they uped the stakes when they moved the club to Northampton, they clearly didn’t think that any one else would be interested in buying the stadium, but Wasps came along and offered the council an easy get out. In short sisu gambled and lost. That’s hardly the fault of the council.

Exactly this.
These words could have been TF
Told us no one wanted the Ricoh only worth 3M for the bricks and mortar.

 

[fatso]

Exactly this.
These words could have been TF
Told us no one wanted the Ricoh only worth 3M for the bricks and mortar.

Funny isn’t it, TF says the Ricoh is only worth 3M, but the whole legal issue centred around sisu’s claim that the council undervalued the Ricoh arena by 30M
when selling to wasps, and that constituted state aid. Honestly, you couldn’t make it up. Not surprised they lost.

 

[chiefdave]

I’d be gutted to leave the Ricoh for a second time, but I certainly wouldn’t point the finger of blame at wasps.

Not to single you out as its certainly not only you but this is what I don't get from our fans. We've been out of the city once. Surely it's something that everyone wants to desperately avoid and we all know the only option is the Ricoh.

It should be clear to Wasps that the city won't accept them forcing the club out but you've got our fans already making excuses for them.

I couldn't care less about SISU, Fisher, Sepalla, the council, ACL, Wasps or anyone else. I care about Coventry City and the club having a long and successful future in Coventry. Why does that seem a difficult concept for many of our supporters?

 

[chiefdave]

The club would need to pay matchday costs whereever, not disputing that and I am not saying they shouldn't.

Issue is match day costs isn't a defined think that is always equal.

Just one small example. Wasps could sell the catering for hospitality in to CCFC at cost, or a small markup, based on what they actually use. Or they could charge full retail based on hospitality being sold out for every game.

Both would be classed as matchday costs but one allows the club to make money and not pay out for things they don't need, the other prevents the club making money and potentially means a loss.

 

[stupot07]

Not to single you out as its certainly not only you but this is what I don't get from our fans. We've been out of the city once. Surely it's something that everyone wants to desperately avoid and we all know the only option is the Ricoh.

It should be clear to Wasps that the city won't accept them forcing the club out but you've got our fans already making excuses for them.

I couldn't care less about SISU, Fisher, Sepalla, the council, ACL, Wasps or anyone else. I care about Coventry City and the club having a long and successful future in Coventry. Why does that seem a difficult concept for many of our supporters?

Nail on head.


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[Magwitch]

Have sisu officially appealed then ? If not how long do they have to do so.

 

[ccfcway]

Have sisu officially appeared then ? If not how long do they have to do so.

Yes mate, they appeared in 2007

 

[play_in_skyblue_stripes]

Can the judges make SISU disappear?

 

[skybluetony176]

Have sisu officially appealed then ? If not how long do they have to do so.

I think that they had some sort of option of leave to appeal at the appeal court following the latest round which they took and was instantly rejected (presumably no new/real argument against the latest decision) so that only leaves them the Supreme Court. As of yet no confirmation that they have appealed to the Supreme Court and the haven’t indicated that they will. Not sure what the window is to do this but I can’t imagine it’s indefinite.

 

[play_in_skyblue_stripes]

Thread isnt so much fun now that previous post has changed "appeared" to appealed.

I read somewhere else 28 days was the window for a further appeal.

 

[Captain Dart]

Thread isnt so much fun now that previous post has changed "appeared" to appealed.

I read somewhere else 28 days was the window for a further appeal.

It is, if Simon Gilbert's tweets can be relied on.

 

[covcity4life]

Hope long yerm rent deal is sorted ans fsvojrsble still to us

I want to see championship football next season st rixoh! And then prem in 2 years!

 

[Adge]

Hope long yerm rent deal is sorted ans fsvojrsble still to us

I want to see championship football next season st rixoh! And then prem in 2 years!

Don’t we all? Trouble being with the business model of “Self sufficient” is that it will only get you so far ie L2 and L1 at best. If we did manage to get to the Championship (despite and not because of the owners) we would come straight back down if no or minimal investment was forthcoming. The Championship is no longer akin to when we were relegated from it under Thorn-who by the way was another Sisu mastersroke!

 

[covcity4life]

Don’t we all? Trouble being with the business model of “Self sufficient” is that it will only get you so far ie L2 and L1 at best. If we did manage to get to the Championship (despite and not because of the owners) we would come straight back down if no or minimal investment was forthcoming. The Championship is no longer akin to when we were relegated from it under Thorn-who by the way was another Sisu mastersroke!

True but also means.more money for the club's in the league too. We would have to be smart with the budget but you never know where ride of momentum might get you I guess

Consolidation as a championship team would be enough. Think robin's is capable