The New Stadium-SISU please tell us the truth!! (1 Viewer)

[Rusty Trombone]

and even if you cant get planning for a stadium you could always apply for much needed housing. that would add value over night to the site i would imagine?

I'd have thought the land owner would have already thought of that so the price will reflect any higher value that housing may give.

 

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[skybluetony176]

You can complete at any point, but you normally see the land prices rise as planning permission becomes more likely.

So it could be that its less of a risk (financially) to buy the site before applying for planning permission?

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

I'd have thought the land owner would have already thought of that so the price will reflect any higher value that housing may give.

Well, yes. But SISU's circumstances mean that planning might get granted whereas other projects - be they for homes or commercial development - might be turned down. Playing the 'Sky Blues Are Homeless' card would get sympathy and councillors loathed to oppose. As such, I don't think they might be as over-the-barrel to land owner gluttony as other developers, as there's an element of inter-dependency to the relationship

 

[Rusty Trombone]

So it could be that its less of a risk (financially) to buy the site before applying for planning permission?

well if you get the planning then it's cost you less than it would have done, that's the gamble. If you don't get the planning then you usually lose out. I think they have missed the boat though on decent land prices, house builders are back in the market.

 

[skybluetony176]

I'd have thought the land owner would have already thought of that so the price will reflect any higher value that housing may give.

so if the land already has outline consent for housing SISU aren't going to buy it anyway. There is no way that will get changed to a football stadium given the pressure the government are under to build houses.

 

[Rusty Trombone]

Well, yes. But SISU's circumstances mean that planning might get granted whereas other projects - be they for homes or commercial development - might be turned down. Playing the 'Sky Blues Are Homeless' card would get sympathy and councillors loathed to oppose. As such, I don't think they might be as over-the-barrel to land owner gluttony as other developers, as there's an element of inter-dependency to the relationship

Completely possible. I can't see it myself, but we'll find out eventually.

 

[Rusty Trombone]

so if the land already has outline consent for housing SISU aren't going to buy it anyway. There is no way that will get changed to a football stadium given the pressure the government are under to build houses.

i doubt they would want to compete with a house developer for a particular site, my view is they would be paying way way over the amount that could make a stadium viable (I don't actually think any stadium build is viable, but this is a hypothetical argument isn't it?).

 

[wingy]

I want to know where the stadium plans are. If they were serious, land deal complete or not you'd have some plans commissioned. Its not like they would have to design it around confines like existing buildings or infrastructure, they've narrowed down to 2 sites apparently that are 60 acres+. they could put it down wherever they wanted in a 60 acre site.

I want to know where the business plan is too. Where is the 365 day income coming from, where's the capital investment coming from. How have they estimated the build cost with no plans. What debt is the club going to be left with once the stadium is finished.

I can see how commercial confidentiality comes into play on tying up the land deal but the questions i want answers too are things that should have been discussed in detail with fans in the first instance, around the same time as the artist impression reared its head.

I wonder which Local Council will pick up the tab/take over Completion when the Club has exhausted It's budget on Consultancy fees before the Land Is even bought?

 

[wingy]

tbh it's why I'm surprised they didn't buy land straight off. Forget planning etc, take the chance you might actually make a profit as prices rise, and have more to show then a drawing to convince people you're serious.

Suggests lack of Ackers to me.

 

[robbiethemole]

You are the same age as my wife. She is also old

cheeky young thing..........I was 33 in 1987

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Absolutely intrigued by you comments!

How do you know where the stadium's likely to be be built and what do you mean by small?

By the way it probably won't be open on Christmas Day LOL

You told us it was and imminent announcement last season so come on where is it?:facepalm:

 

[bigfatronssba]

Well, yes. But SISU's circumstances mean that planning might get granted whereas other projects - be they for homes or commercial development - might be turned down. Playing the 'Sky Blues Are Homeless' card would get sympathy and councillors loathed to oppose. As such, I don't think they might be as over-the-barrel to land owner gluttony as other developers, as there's an element of inter-dependency to the relationship

Planning permission couldn't really be granted on that basis.

Just as it couldn't be refused out of spite, it cannot be granted out of sympathy.

 

[martcov]

Absolutely intrigued by you comments!

How do you know where the stadium's likely to be be built and what do you mean by small?

By the way it probably won't be open on Christmas Day LOL

How do you know where the stadium's likely to be be built? Please Tell.

 

[martcov]

However they do it - complete the transaction and hope to make cash on a value uplift, or the conditional offer route above - it puts pressure on the council. CCC aren't going to want to look difficult after recent events and therefore to an extent, they're over a barrel. That is, to emphasise again, this option only works if SISU have any appetite to build whatsoever...

Why are the council going to look difficult? If they give CCFC precedence over more pressing projects they will get more problems. The Days of the council putting their necks at risk to bend the rules in favour of a football club are long gone. Any planning application will be judged on its merits. Being as we already have a bowl and that the football club is leaving of its own accord, I would say we haven't got a cat in hell's chance of having a stadium in Cov.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Thought it would be interesting to look at incomes at another club. Picked on Bristol City and the figures below show the split of income for the final two years in the Championship ending 31/05/13. They own their own ground and it has a capacity of 21497. It is a group structure that has a holding company that owns the assets and an operating company that runs the football club. They made big losses 12m 2013 14m 2012 but from what I can see massively overpaid salaries (staff costs 17m 2013 and 19m 2012).

Income analysis from the Group accounts
.....................................2013.......................2012
Matchday income........1,132,457.....................1,360,953
Season ticket revenue..1,960,641....................2,003,273
Broadcasting revenue...... 80,000.......................220,000
Football League pool......1,820,000..................2,450,000
solidarity payment ........2,290,025..................2,171,000
other football income........694,544....................337,574
Stadium Revenue
Concert ...................................0...................1,111,662
other ...........................1,925,755..................2,222,462

total ......................9,903,422.................11,876,923

I assume that they will offer conference and restaurant space and that's included in the stadium other income. The stadium isn't in the centre of Bristol. Average attendance 2012/13 = 13348

Looking at those figures most of the income types CCFC would already be entitled to irrespective of owning or renting its ground. The other regular income for BCFC is approx. £2m but from a slightly bigger ground than proposed by SISU/CCFC. But of course those other regular income types bring with it a high level of direct cost also (possibly 50% + of turnover). What that means is that the SCMP calculation on other incomes alone would give a maximum of 600k extra to spend on the team (ie <2m less direct costs £1m> x 60%). There could be one offs in terms of income but they can not be relied upon.

Just a reminder we are looking at championship levels of income and attendance for Bristol City not League 1 levels of income.

I know it is not an exact science but it looks to me that unless we get promotion income levels will be lower than the above, income will be lower because crowds are smaller and prize monies etc are lower in L1. The SISU premise is to build and finance a stadium to get approx. £2m in turnover it seems, that at best makes £600k available to SCMP and at best adds £1m to the bottom line.

Get promoted and we will have the problem of higher wage structure just to survive. Current turnover is what? perhaps £4.5m? with wage costs at say £3m? Bristol spent £17m on wages in Championship and still got relegated

That's all before factoring in the additional costs of finance for the build.

Like I say not an exact science, might even be an unfair example ............. but it is food for thought both in respect of owning and renting :thinking about:

 

[Moff]

Why are the council going to look difficult? If they give CCFC precedence over more pressing projects they will get more problems. The Days of the council putting their necks at risk to bend the rules in favour of a football club are long gone. Any planning application will be judged on its merits. Being as we already have a bowl and that the football club is leaving of its own accord, I would say we haven't got a cat in hell's chance of having a stadium in Cov.

Some cities comfortably manage two stadia, for example our neighbours up the M69, and this is will not be a reason to turn down an application.

Having previous experience of working with planning law, and land purchase, I would say the club, if handled and submitted correctly, would have more than a cat in hells chance of building a stadium in Coventry...IF....done properly and suitable land identified.

To be fair though there it little to no chance of this happening under SISU's stewardship.

 

[oldskyblue58]

I think the biggest problem that they will have with planning permission is how it fits in with the long term business & development plan of CCC. Any new stadium is going to require infra structure to be put in and if that is deemed to be less important than other infra structure plans already committed too or in the pipeline then I do not see how it goes forward quickly. Plus with the budgetary squeeze on councils then there are huge hurdles. Cant see SISU wanting to carry the extra cost either

 

[dongonzalos]

Some cities comfortably manage two stadia, for example our neighbours up the M69, and this is will not be a reason to turn down an application.

Having previous experience of working with planning law, and land purchase, I would say the club, if handled and submitted correctly, would have more than a cat in hells chance of building a stadium in Coventry...IF....done properly and suitable land identified.

To be fair though there it little to no chance of this happening under SISU's stewardship.

If you read Joy Seppala's statement. The issue of having the football stadium in the CCC boundaries. Was nothing to do with available space. It was all about I can't work with CCC and they can't work with me.
Thoughts for the fans and what would be best to make the project work were secondary

 

[chiefdave]

I know it is not an exact science but it looks to me that unless we get promotion income levels will be lower than the above, income will be lower because crowds are smaller and prize monies etc are lower in L1. The SISU premise is to build and finance a stadium to get approx. £2m in turnover it seems, that at best makes £600k available to SCMP and at best adds £1m to the bottom line.

So if a new stadium would bring in £2m revenue and £1m profit a year how would that stack up against the likely costs of financing somewhere in the region of £40m?

Of course if we rent long term we forgo that income but I would think a rent deal could be struck at a far lower annual cost than financing a new stadium and in years to come we won't have to worry about maintenance bills so if you project over say 100 years does one come out way ahead of the other?

Does the mantra of we must own our stadium stand up to scrutiny?

 

[oldskyblue58]

So if a new stadium would bring in £2m revenue and £1m profit a year how would that stack up against the likely costs of financing somewhere in the region of £40m?

Of course if we rent long term we forgo that income but I would think a rent deal could be struck at a far lower annual cost than financing a new stadium and in years to come we won't have to worry about maintenance bills so if you project over say 100 years does one come out way ahead of the other?

Does the mantra of we must own our stadium stand up to scrutiny?

40m over say 25 years at 2% = repayments of 169k pm (a total of interest over 25 yrs of 10.9m) 5m on the same terms is a monthly repayment of £21k

All depends on the deal for rights to income doesn't it. Can a deal be done that works for both?

Ownership has never been an absolute must have, rights to income steams have always been a must have.

It is all very well to say that a stadium is an asset on the balance sheet but in most clubs it is matched by debt and charges that never actually decreases.

 

[martcov]

Some cities comfortably manage two stadia, for example our neighbours up the M69, and this is will not be a reason to turn down an application.

Having previous experience of working with planning law, and land purchase, I would say the club, if handled and submitted correctly, would have more than a cat in hells chance of building a stadium in Coventry...IF....done properly and suitable land identified.

To be fair though there it little to no chance of this happening under SISU's stewardship.

Sorry, don't agree ( about planning ). I don't know the füll story behind Leicester, but I know that whatever happens, it wouldn't be easy in Cov. Firstly there aren't that many sites of the size SISU wants and then, apart from CCC, there are the residents who would prolong any application.
I don't see us getting past all the obstacles. Apart from that the sums don't add up and even if they did, the stadium would belong to SISU's investors and not to what we call "the club". SISU's investors would only provide "us" with a stadium in order to get a good return on their money - regardless of the standard of football played in the arena. The whole thing is a nightmare and yes, I agree that it definitely won't happen under SISU's stewardship anyway.

 

[dongonzalos]

So if a new stadium would bring in £2m revenue and £1m profit a year how would that stack up against the likely costs of financing somewhere in the region of £40m?

Of course if we rent long term we forgo that income but I would think a rent deal could be struck at a far lower annual cost than financing a new stadium and in years to come we won't have to worry about maintenance bills so if you project over say 100 years does one come out way ahead of the other?

Does the mantra of we must own our stadium stand up to scrutiny?

Surely at the point where the land deal is ready to be signed.
You approach wasps show them what you can about your plans to convince them you are serious.
Then you start negotiations about a long term rent deal at the Ricoh with enough access to revenues to make a success of the club.
The advantage to wasps you a agree a partnership on marketing, shops, stewarding. Physios training facilities ect. Halving wasps costs in these areas. Also the get a long term tenant.
If wasps can see how agreeing such a deal will allow the club to succeed. That will naturally bring more exposure to the Ricoh as a facility.

Effectively work out the figures for the new stadium and work out a long term rental deal that is the same as the figures for the new stadium or better.

Put the figures in front of wasps and say what would you do

 

[martcov]

40m over say 25 years at 2% = repayments of 169k pm (a total of interest over 25 yrs of 10.9m) 5m on the same terms is a monthly repayment of £21k

All depends on the deal for rights to income doesn't it. Can a deal be done that works for both?

Ownership has never been an absolute must have, rights to income steams have always been a must have.

It is all very well to say that a stadium is an asset on the balance sheet but in most clubs it is matched by debt and charges that never actually decreases.

If we were gifted a stadium tomorrow, we would mortgage it to the hilt and buy players in an attempt to get out league 1. By this time next year we would be struggling to meet the mortgage payments - assuming we missed out on promotion. Knowing us, we would do that.

 

[Godiva]

It is all very well to say that a stadium is an asset on the balance sheet but in most clubs it is matched by debt and charges that never actually decreases.

Sisu may see it different. It's quite common that hedge fund managers are paid a percentage of the asset base by the investors. We don't know how sisu are paid here, and that is probably the reason we have a hard time figuring what their priorities are.

 

[Godiva]

If we were gifted a stadium tomorrow, we would mortgage it to the hilt ...

This is a sentiment often said on this forum. It's not unusual to mortgage properties as it is otherwise passive capital. Mortgaging frees up the capital and can then be used in developing the operations.
ACL is carrying a mortgage on their lease - and have done so since day 1.

 

[letsallsingtogether]

If you read Joy Seppala's statement. The issue of having the football stadium in the CCC boundaries. Was nothing to do with available space. It was all about I can't work with CCC and they can't work with me.
Thoughts for the fans and what would be best to make the project work were secondary

Tim told us that there was little or nowhere in the Coventry boundaries that meet their needs.

No site big enough to do all of he things they have in mind.

What those things are your'll have to guess as usual.

 

[ajsccfc]

They need plenty of room for that big statue of her.

 

[Lord_Nampil]

The last thing i heard from Tim which was last week was land deal very close, long term plan with club and land owner..... Now I remember a while back reading about a link with Warwick university???? I am guessing Warwick uni actually own the land its built on as well??? If so i wonder if there is a plan to build a stadium on there land?? Only linking 2 bits of info together mind, but would back up was mentioned on here a few weeks bk.....

 

[LB87ccfc]

The last thing i heard from Tim which was last week was land deal very close, long term plan with club and land owner..... Now I remember a while back reading about a link with Warwick university???? I am guessing Warwick uni actually own the land its built on as well??? If so i wonder if there is a plan to build a stadium on there land?? Only linking 2 bits of info together mind, but would back up was mentioned on here a few weeks bk.....

Link with Warwick Uni, is this why it kicked off down their yesterday as someone upset the students saying they was going to demolish it and put our glitzy fisher fantasy land there

 

[Lord_Nampil]

Link with Warwick Uni, is this why it kicked off down their yesterday as someone upset the students saying they was going to demolish it and put our glitzy fisher fantasy land there

no i think that was a sit down protest regarding tuition fees...

 

[chiefdave]

In theory Warwick Uni would be decent but think you would need significant infrastructure improvements to avoid gridlock every matchday.

 

[shy_tall_knight]

The clue is in the name "Warwick" nowhere near the town of Warwick but seen as being more elite to associate with Warwick rather than the city that it is located in. Warwick Uni is going from strength to strength do you think that they are going to encourage a football stadium to be built nearby

 

[torchomatic]

I think you'll find that between all those who "have lost interest", "do other things on a Saturday", "won't go while SISU are here" and "won't go to a new stadium" then gridlock won't be a problem.

In theory Warwick Uni would be decent but think you would need significant infrastructure improvements to avoid gridlock every matchday.

 

[torchomatic]

Eh? Nothing to do with CCFC but tuition fees!

Link with Warwick Uni, is this why it kicked off down their yesterday as someone upset the students saying they was going to demolish it and put our glitzy fisher fantasy land there

 

[Lord_Nampil]

In theory Warwick Uni would be decent but think you would need significant infrastructure improvements to avoid gridlock every matchday.

that is my only concern about it..... and does make me think twice about linking them!