The no loans strategy (4 Viewers)

fernandopartridge · Apr 27, 2024

What have we got out of it?

King said before the United game that he'd swap places with Ipswich. Well yeah, they've supplemented their squad with high quality loan players as pretty much anybody outside of the parachute payment recipients needs to.

Given our form and position in January it feels like an opportunity lost.

SeaSeeEffCee · Apr 27, 2024

Hopefully King will use this January as a learning experience for the future. Play-offs were there for us and failure to move in that market is what has cost us in the end.

Saddlebrains · Apr 27, 2024

It's been made crystal clear by Robins to Doug that to get out of this league you need 2 or 3 loans of real quality

Lets hope Dougs heeds that advice

fernandopartridge · Apr 27, 2024

Not to mention that the man whose fee bankrolled the spending was a loanee, as was the next one to be sold and the other player who is leaving who we're desperate to keep.

Calista · Apr 27, 2024

Ayari being a bit of a flop might have influenced his thinking. But even a couple of underwhelming loans might have allowed Robins to give a few people a rest here and there.

PVA · Apr 27, 2024

Is it a strategy or could we just not get the loans we wanted?

Sick Boy · Apr 27, 2024

PVA said:
Is it a strategy or could we just not get the loans we wanted?

Pretty sure it was a deliberate strategy from King.

The watchmaker · Apr 27, 2024

PVA said:
Is it a strategy or could we just not get the loans we wanted?

I was going to ask a similar question. Loans are expensive and lead to unsettled sides so if you are trying to build and have the money buying is a pretty wise move. We did loan two players - although admittedly one didn't work out and was sent back.

I also wonder whether Doug was a bit caught out by (and I don't mean to be critical) Peterborough's owner not being as business like as he may be used to. Robins seemed pretty confident EMC was coming in but to read MacAntony's account he was on a plane at a critical time and then by his own admission, a little tipsy and made a decision that those around him thought was mad. Maybe EMC coming in doesn't get us promoted but fine margins might have seen us into the playoffs.

Saddlebrains · Apr 27, 2024

Sick Boy said:
Pretty sure it was a deliberate strategy from King.

Correct. Admirable. And sensible really. But you do not get out of that league without that little but of magic from higher level players you can loan in

stupot07 · Apr 27, 2024

Saddlebrains said:
Correct. Admirable. And sensible really. But you do not get out of that league without that little but of magic from higher level players you can loan in

There's a difference between being reliant on loans, which with McNally, Panzo, Doyle, BNC, Wilson-Esbrand (5 of 8 defenders in the squad), to supplementing a squad, with 2-3 options additional oppositions, quality and depth.

The watchmaker · Apr 27, 2024

Saddlebrains said:
Correct. Admirable. And sensible really. But you do not get out of that league without that little but of magic from higher level players you can loan in

Is there an argument that this year was a major rebuild and therefore going big on loans makes more sense next season when we really want to make a big push and have a better idea of the limitations of the players we own?

Saddlebrains · Apr 27, 2024

The watchmaker said:
Is there an argument that this year was a major rebuild and therefore going big on loans makes more sense next season when we really want to make a big push and have a better idea of the limitations of the players we own?

Perhaps, id say thats a valid point

Id be very surprised if we didnt see a couple of loans of real quality in the summer

stupot07 · Apr 27, 2024

The problem is we came out of January one squad player lighter, with a squad that was never big enough.

Out
Fadz
Ayari

In
Torp

The watchmaker · Apr 27, 2024

stupot07 said:
The problem is we came out of January one squad player lighter, with a squad that was never big enough.

Out
Fadz
Ayari

In
Torp

Yeah, the club were clearly aware of that and trying to bring in cover for Sakamoto/Wright. If you read the MacAntony articles Doug pushed really hard to get EMC in and at one stage walked away to pursue other options when it became clear that we wouldn't get him til the summer. Presumably those other options didn't work out either. You live and learn.

Deleted member 9744 · Apr 27, 2024

Been saying it since January. A big mistake and I think it is almost impossible to get out if this league without the extra quality loans bring. Just hope Robins doesn't leave because of this and that we learn from it.

clint van damme · Apr 27, 2024

The watchmaker said:
I was going to ask a similar question. Loans are expensive

Not true, depending on where you get them from.

Robins has been let down in every January for the last 3 seasons

messiahrobins · Apr 27, 2024

Saddlebrains said:
It's been made crystal clear by Robins to Doug that to get out of this league you need 2 or 3 loans of real quality

Lets hope Dougs heeds that advice

That is tricky though as the top loans are usually highly rated PL players who are young and on for our standard big wages, even if we only paying a percentage, is quite a chunk of our budget.
That said i think things changed for Doug at Wembley so ive a feeling he might be now more inclined to push the boat out if Robins requests it. However you know way more than me.

messiahrobins · Apr 27, 2024

Deleted member 9744 said:
Been saying it since January. A big mistake and I think it is almost impossible to get out if this league without the extra quality loans bring. Just hope Robins doesn't leave because of this and that we learn from it.

Not sure on this. Hull gambled hugely on getting into the play offs. I am glad we didnt end up like Hull, as they will now have issues this summer.

messiahrobins · Apr 27, 2024

Saddlebrains said:
Correct. Admirable. And sensible really. But you do not get out of that league without that little but of magic from higher level players you can loan in

Cant blame Doug on this. This was a transitional season and he must have been reluctant to take risks in January, and looking at Hull he probably made the right call. I think he sees the summer as the time to recruit.

The watchmaker · Apr 27, 2024

clint van damme said:
Not true, depending on where you get them from.

Robins has been let down in every January for the last 3 seasons

Well... okay... I suppose it depends on your definition of expensive but I will grant you that actually. Short term, it can be a much cheaper way of bringing in quality you can't afford to buy.

I suppose if you look at hull - if they don't make playoffs they are in the same place as us but all their loans are just dead money... if they somehow sneak the playoffs and go up then they are fantastic value.

I can't argue with your point on Robins either. Probably wouldn't have taken much in January to see us over the line and the failure to properly replace Hamer in the summer window was equally damaging.

clint van damme · Apr 27, 2024

The watchmaker said:
Well... okay... I suppose it depends on your definition of expensive but I will grant you that actually. Short term, it can be a much cheaper way of bringing in quality you can't afford to buy.

I suppose if you look at hull - if they don't make playoffs they are in the same place as us but all their loans are just dead money... if they somehow sneak the playoffs and go up then they are fantastic value.

I can't argue with your point on Robins either. Probably wouldn't have taken much in January to see us over the line and the failure to properly replace Hamer in the summer window was equally damaging.

Well some clubs pick up the bill as long as the loanees plays apparently.
I think there's a happy medium between maxing out on loans and bolstering your squad with a couple of decent additions

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Apr 27, 2024

Maybe some sort of compromise would be loans that we are seriously considering signing permanently. hasn't worked out too bad in the recent past.

Mucca Mad Boys · Apr 28, 2024

Saddlebrains said:
Correct. Admirable. And sensible really. But you do not get out of that league without that little but of magic from higher level players you can loan in

To things back in perspective, the objective Robins was set by King was to compete for a playoff place.

In the end, would spending a lot of budget on loanees made the difference this season? I don’t think so and if it was the difference between securing EMC permanently, we’ve took the right decision in the longer term.

In a 5 year plan, this was a season where we build our foundations.

mmttww · Apr 28, 2024

Saddlebrains said:
Correct. Admirable. And sensible really. But you do not get out of that league without that little but of magic from higher level players you can loan in

Did Brentford ever bother with loans?

Feels like that's what we're aiming for.

Deity · Apr 28, 2024

Ok can we expose some myths on loans ….

1) The most sought after players are not cheap. Clubs insist on a loan fee and the club pick up all / majority of the players wages. This means that loan signings are often the highest paid players at the club they join. It is not unusual for the loan fee to be a 7 figure sum.

2) The player and the loaning club have clear expectations on both how many matches they will play and in what position. This can create issues within the squad as other team members feel it’s not a level playing field for first team selection

3) attitude is everything …. Some loan players embrace their new club, the chance they have for first team football …others act billy big time and think the club, its facilities, etc are below them. This can also cause squad issues.

4) The data is mixed. It’s a bit lazy to say that you have to have loans to go up because almost every club in the championship has loan players. Therefore yes loan players appear in promoted teams but they are also in relegated teams.

If we take Leicester as a case in point. 4 loans this season. Only 1 of which has been a real success. 2 flopped and have barely played and 1 has been injured most of the season.

They have spent over £3m in loan fees.

One loan was recalled by Chelsea in January because he wasn’t playing enough ( he was getting mins off the bench ) ….

Deity · Apr 28, 2024

I personally don’t mind the odd loan but would only ever want 2 max. Unless the loan includes an option to buy then you really are not building anything.

I would sooner inject dead money into 2 or 3 older bosmans that give the team more experience, match day know how, and help the younger players have the right standards.

I think Milner and Lallana at Brighton are the perfect example of this approach …. Clearly we couldn’t afford that quality but the approach could be similar.

clint van damme · Apr 28, 2024

Deity said:
Ok can we expose some myths on loans ….

1) The most sought after players are not cheap. Clubs insist on a loan fee and the club pick up all / majority of the players wages. This means that loan signings are often the highest paid players at the club they join. It is not unusual for the loan fee to be a 7 figure sum.

2) The player and the loaning club have clear expectations on both how many matches they will play and in what position. This can create issues within the squad as other team members feel it’s not a level playing field for first team selection

3) attitude is everything …. Some loan players embrace their new club, the chance they have for first team football …others act billy big time and think the club, its facilities, etc are below them. This can also cause squad issues.

4) The data is mixed. It’s a bit lazy to say that you have to have loans to go up because almost every club in the championship has loan players. Therefore yes loan players appear in promoted teams but they are also in relegated teams.

If we take Leicester as a case in point. 4 loans this season. Only 1 of which has been a real success. 2 flopped and have barely played and 1 has been injured most of the season.

They have spent over £3m in loan fees.

One loan was recalled by Chelsea in January because he wasn’t playing enough ( he was getting mins off the bench ) ….

Point 1 isn't correct

Deity · Apr 28, 2024

clint van damme said:
Point 1 isn't correct

Yes it is for the most sought after players.

Deity · Apr 28, 2024

clint van damme said:
Point 1 isn't correct

Ipsw are paying 75% of Kieffer Moore’s prem league contract …. He’s there highest paid player.

covcity4life · Apr 28, 2024

At start of season fans were so happy we had no loans and now in hindsight kicking off lol

In the summer I was more permanent signings to keep the squad moving in right direction

If a great loan opportunity comes up then yes take it to be the cherry on top

clint van damme · Apr 28, 2024

Deity said:
Ipsw are paying 75% of Kieffer Moore’s prem league contract …. He’s there highest paid player.

But not all loans work like that.
Some are free but the player has to play, or play a certain amount, as you've stated in point 2.

clint van damme · Apr 28, 2024

covcity4life said:
At start of season fans were so happy we had no loans and now in hindsight kicking off lol

In the summer I was more permanent signings to keep the squad moving in right direction

If a great loan opportunity comes up then yes take it to be the cherry on top

Like I said, there's a happy medium, a couple of loans to bolster the squad is no bad thing.

Flying Fokker · Apr 28, 2024

The watchmaker said:
I was going to ask a similar question. Loans are expensive and lead to unsettled sides so if you are trying to build and have the money buying is a pretty wise move. We did loan two players - although admittedly one didn't work out and was sent back.

I also wonder whether Doug was a bit caught out by (and I don't mean to be critical) Peterborough's owner not being as business like as he may be used to. Robins seemed pretty confident EMC was coming in but to read MacAntony's account he was on a plane at a critical time and then by his own admission, a little tipsy and made a decision that those around him thought was mad. Maybe EMC coming in doesn't get us promoted but fine margins might have seen us into the playoffs.

Would Peterborough let go if they are in The Championship? Yes, maybe it was good business despite the loan back to Peterborough.

Flying Fokker · Apr 28, 2024

stupot07 said:
The problem is we came out of January one squad player lighter, with a squad that was never big enough.

Out
Fadz
Ayari

In
Torp

Ayari was an example of loans that do not work occasionally.

Deity · Apr 28, 2024

Our recent track record on loans is mixed at best

Ayari … no
Binks …. Mixed

previous season

JWE …no
Norton Cuffy …. Mixed
McNally … Yes
Doyle … Yes
The young palace right back …. No

The no loans strategy (4 Viewers)

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