The phone in!! (1 Viewer)

[wingy]

Juggy on tonight.
I'd wager he's had a few friends ring in to set the agenda /direction of the programme.
Seriously though he bought up a cojent point.
Basically that our contribution to the Academy is £600 K.
That means overall budget is £1.2M.
That's quite hefty and at least 50 % of what the playing budget is.
What eats that amount up?

 

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[Sky Blue Harry H]

Juggy on tonight.
I'd wager he's had a few friends ring in to set the agenda /direction of the programme.
Seriously though he bought up a cojent point.
Basically that our contribution to the Academy is £600 K.
That means overall budget is £1.2M.
That's quite hefty and at least 50 % of what the playing budget is.
What eats that amount up?

It's the prawn sandwiches and the brandy in the flasks for the directors in the posh seats at the side of the pitch

 

[stupot07]

I imagine 90% goes direct yo Joy......

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[ccfcway]

is the academy include in the 1st team playing budget ?

 

[stupot07]

is the academy include in the 1st team playing budget ?

No, I don't think so. The FA have said it takes c£1m to run a cat 2 academy so they pay around half towards it.

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[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

I imagine 90% goes direct yo Joy......

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Not quite 90%

 

[ccfcway]

it wont be 50% of the 1st team budget. as £1.2 million will just be wages, wont include rent, police etc. Academy £600k will be lock stock and barrel I assume

 

[stupot07]

it wont be 50% of the 1st team budget. as £1.2 million will just be wages, wont include rent, police etc. Academy £600k will be lock stock and barrel I assume

c£1m lock stock and barrel for the academy - staff, accommodation, transport to games, medical staff, staff training, utilities, kit, etc, etc

Like you say the first team budget will be c£2-2.5m but that will just be wages.

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[wingy]

It was a serious point.
Not suggesting any skullduggery.
That brings me to another point however.
Given that Ryton is an asset of Arvo, should they not be responsible for its upkeep rather than TM dipping into the player budget to keep it shipshape.

 

[stupot07]

Yes they would be responsible for that, but TM wanted to do some extra bits so that's wilhy he used some of this years first team budget on top of the normal maintenance that would come out the "admin/management" costs

Sorry Wingy, I could just see what was going to come. I imagine the club have to provide details of what they are spending that money on and his matched funding is being used for tbr academy otherwise the FA would withdraw the Cat 2 status. I really don't think there would be any skullduggery here

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[Deleted member 5849]

It was a serious point.
Not suggesting any skullduggery.
That brings me to another point however.
Given that Ryton is an asset of Arvo, should they not be responsible for its upkeep rather than TM dipping into the player budget to keep it shipshape.

Arguably a coat of paint is aesthetics rather than needed, though.

Still not sure what the faux graffiti was all about!

 

[wingy]

c£1m lock stock and barrel for the academy - staff, accommodation, transport to games, medical staff, staff training, utilities, kit, etc, etc

Like you say the first team budget will be c£2-2.5m but that will just be wages.

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So more realistically 25% of the overall budget including U21's etc?

 

[stupot07]

So more realistically 25% of the overall budget including U21's etc?

No idea. Not sure if you picked up the second bit of my post re: auditing and having to disclose what they spend it on/how match funding is spent?

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[chiefdave]

You can see why some teams have wound up their academies since the EPPP came in. How many first teamers do we get coming through a year? Lets be generous and say 5, that's £200K a go. The compensation scheme means if Sambou goes we get back about £100K, so taking into account the FA money we just about break even on him.

You can't rely on there being a Wilson or Maddison every year and I suspect we're going to see players being moved at 18 a lot more frequently.

 

[shy_tall_knight]

Fair play to juggy concentrated on the people running our club, faceless incompetent owners, ticket office shambles, Chris anderson revering to type talking about projects, raising expectations then weeks later contradicting these statements.

Unfortunately this club won't move forward until they have gone.

 

[wingy]

You can see why some teams have wound up their academies since the EPPP came in. How many first teamers do we get coming through a year? Lets be generous and say 5, that's £200K a go. The compensation scheme means if Sambou goes we get back about £100K, so taking into account the FA money we just about break even on him.

You can't rely on there being a Wilson or Maddison every year and I suspect we're going to see players being moved at 18 a lot more frequently.

You'd have to assume the next one to achieve a fee would be RCC, not sure if he played any U18's though, possibly into U21's after being released by Arsenal.
Beyond that who knows.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

You can't rely on there being a Wilson or Maddison every year and I suspect we're going to see players being moved at 18 a lot more frequently.

Say conservatively they were both £2.5mil received.

That'd mean you'd need one of them every four years to break even.

Then there are the ones that fill out the squad, and break through... who should in theory be on cheaper wages (initially, anyway) than those you have to beat off other clubs for, and ought to have a certain affinity for the club.

And if done properly, ought to be steeped in the club's style of play so they can blend seamlessly into the first team.

(yeah, I appreciate the last point needs some work, but the theory's fine!)

 

[CJ_covblaze]

Amazing to think that Man City's budget just for their age groups up to and including U9s is more than our entire academy budget.

 

[chiefdave]

You'd have to assume the next one to achieve a fee would be RCC, not sure if he played any U18's though, possibly into U21's after being released by Arsenal.

He's a great example. What was he, 19 or 20 when he came to us. Why pay for an academy to develop players when you can let someone else do it and pick up the cast offs.

As NW says you need a Wilson or Maddison every 4 years. That's great if you keep producing them and they stay long enough to reach a value but if players start leaving regularly at 18 and we're only getting the compensation payments is it worth it?

Just to be clear I'm not suggesting we should close the academy, but think SISU or future owners might consider it a few years down the line the way things are going.

 

[wingy]

He's a great example. What was he, 19 or 20 when he came to us. Why pay for an academy to develop players when you can let someone else do it and pick up the cast offs.

As NW says you need a Wilson or Maddison every 4 years. That's great if you keep producing them and they stay long enough to reach a value but if players start leaving regularly at 18 and we're only getting the compensation payments is it worth it?

Just to be clear I'm not suggesting we should close the academy, but think SISU or future owners might consider it a few years down the line the way things are going.

No me neither CD, but a point I've made a few times.
If the current manager doesn't dip in to utilise then it raises a question, but then you go the other way a la SP and risk relegation.
The raw ingredients we attract at this level are possibly not quite cut out for where we are or one above, bar the exception every couple of years.

 

[skybluericoh]

Yes they would be responsible for that, but TM wanted to do some extra bits so that's wilhy he used some of this years first team budget on top of the normal maintenance that would come out the "admin/management" costs

Sorry Wingy, I could just see what was going to come. I imagine the club have to provide details of what they are spending that money on and his matched funding is being used for tbr academy otherwise the FA would withdraw the Cat 2 status. I really don't think there would be any skullduggery here

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'I imagine the club have to provide details of what they are spending that money on and his matched funding is being used for tbr academy otherwise the FA would withdraw the Cat 2 status. I really don't think there would be any skullduggery here'

Rest assured that the football authorities will have tight rein on the running of the game, they wouldn't allow any 'doggie dealings' by any owners to go unpunished. And heaven forbid our game would ever allow corrupt people to gain any sort of control at club level, never mind national or international controls where someone might get a watch or other gift that may distract them from paying attention to an audit.

 

[skybluegod]

Its not just about football at the top level though is it? If we shut down academies except for the top clubs, then youngsters will not get into football at a young age, meaning we will lose talents like Maddison and Wilson from local areas.
Coaches that go to schools and work with kids , will no longer happen, means school participation will drop
Increasing the amount of people not involved in sport, and increasing obesity in society.
Even if the academy does not run self-sufficiently I think you have to look at the wider impact.

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[ccfcway]

Amazing to think that Man City's budget just for their age groups up to and including U9s is more than our entire academy budget.

funny, I was expecting you to say man citys kids budget was more than our "1st team budget"

 

[pipkin73]

funny, I was expecting you to say man citys kids budget was more than our "1st team budget"

I though he was going to say the same lol.

 

[dongonzalos]

He's a great example. What was he, 19 or 20 when he came to us. Why pay for an academy to develop players when you can let someone else do it and pick up the cast offs.

As NW says you need a Wilson or Maddison every 4 years. That's great if you keep producing them and they stay long enough to reach a value but if players start leaving regularly at 18 and we're only getting the compensation payments is it worth it?

Just to be clear I'm not suggesting we should close the academy, but think SISU or future owners might consider it a few years down the line the way things are going.

Wilson was reported to be 3.5 million,
Maddision 2.5 million. (Some claim more)

That's 6 million from 2 players.

I take I have missed something not hearing the phone in?
I thought SUSU were investing 500k a season, that's 12 years worth from two players.

The value of British players is increasing dramatically the costs of the academy as far as I am aware are not increasing at the same pace.

Bigi was sold for 1 million.

Christie raised some money and if he his contract hadn't run down he would have raised some more money.

As far as I can see the academy pays for itself and plenty on top

 

[shmmeee]

Last 12 years we've sold Turner, Bigi, Madders, Sheffers, Wilson plus saved on squad players with countless cameos and lesser players.

To claim it's not worth half a million a year before you've even talked about its intrinsic value is nuts.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Just a thought or two .....

The club I assume allocate costs to the academy in line with the FL/FA guidelines. Highly likely that some staff are classed as both academy and non academy and their total cost split between the two cost centres. That works for the grant application but the other side of it would we be able to afford such often essential staff for the club overall without the grant

We know that the club makes losses usually several million per year. The academy grant is classed as income. So whilst the club is loss making you could look at it that the grant received actually offsets the academy cost of £600k rather than providing extra funding to take expenditure up to 1.1m. So in effect the academy costs the club (it is the club not SISU that pays for it) next to nothing.

If the Academy costs a net very little then any academy players sold or making it to the 1st team is a very good return.

If the Academy is so vital to the clubs financial future then two questions
1) What is happening about the Academy future following the reports of changes at the Higgs centre. Unless there is an indoor training pitch doesnt that down grade the academy to Cat 3 and hit the grant received? To my knowledge there is only one such pitch in the area
2) how is the financial plan affected by the PL/FL deal that means an agreed level of compensation rather than a sale of value. Academy players are being hoovered up by the big clubs and as with Bassala that means lost financial opportunities for the club

 

[chiefdave]

how is the financial plan affected by the PL/FL deal that means an agreed level of compensation rather than a sale of value. Academy players are being hoovered up by the big clubs and as with Bassala that means lost financial opportunities for the club

That's the key point. Forget what we got for players in the past there seems to be a trend for the top clubs to take players earlier. With the EPPP that means we only get £3K a year for 9-11 and £25K a year for 12-16, assuming the changes at Higgs don't affect our academy status, if it does we get even less.

If it gets to the point that players aren't coming through like Maddison and Wilson and the good ones get picked off for next to nothing before they've even played for us I'm sure at some point in the future there will be questions asked by whoever owns the club at that point as to the viability of continuing the academy. Other clubs have already closed their academies as they don't feel it represents value.

The other side of it is filling our first team. But if you look at this season only 7 academy graduates (Burge, Haynes, Maddison, Phillips, Connor Thomas, George Thomas and Jordan Willis) have played and that covers the last 5 seasons (including this year) of academy graduates. You could make an argument that it would be better to not bother and just pick up players like Stokes and RCC for nothing or next to nothing.