The World Is Drugged Up ? (1 Viewer)

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Who drinks pure alcohol? That's a moot point.

Alcoholic drinks have been around for over 9,000 years. It's helped shape cultures and progressed the arts amongst other things.

It's not suddenly something that needs to be banished or demonised because certain sections of the public can't control themselves.

Also, over taxing booze hasn't been much of a success in Scotland.

Minimum unit pricing: it’s pish

How many people take pure crack or heroin? Hardly any.

Many other drugs have progressed the arts and cultures as well. Many famous artworks, literature, songs have been conceived when the creator was high, from stuff like mushrooms through LSD to ecstacy and cocaine. Why are those demonised?

I didn't say that high taxation was a cure for the ills of drink and drugs - it's just a better solution than others available.
1. Market pricing - lower cost = higher consumption. Higher consumption = more social and health problems but no tax means the burden of dealing with these falls heavily on the state.
2. Banning/restriction. Highly unpopular due to the ingrained cultural legitimacy. The level of addiction (every at minor levels such as a drink every night after work that people wouldn't/couldn't give up) creates a large market for criminal enterprises and creates a potential health and safety risk from bootleg booze. So health and social problems and costs with an added policing and crime cost element, not to mention the jobs lost on farms/production exacerbating that. All with absolutely no tax on whatsoever to help pay for it.
3. Higher taxation. Tax money helps to pay for the health and social problems it causes. Increased price means for most except those with severe addictions they can still enjoy it but extra cost should slightly reduce consumption and thus have some health and social benefits while minimising the opportunity for criminals.

If that policy isn't working at reducing consumption it's because the addiction rates are far worse than stated. If you can't stop drinking even if it's costing you more than you can afford, you are an alcoholic and you have a severe addiction that requires major help from the health services.

 

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[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Have they ever tried a double absynthe and a double sambuca set on fire?

The green fairy has been subject to very stringent regulations for a long time and was banned in a number of places.

 

[Houchens Head]

Wine: If it was alright for Jesus, it's alright for me! :emoji_grin:

 

[LastGarrison]

How many people take pure crack or heroin? Hardly any.

Many other drugs have progressed the arts and cultures as well. Many famous artworks, literature, songs have been conceived when the creator was high, from stuff like mushrooms through LSD to ecstacy and cocaine. Why are those demonised?

I didn't say that high taxation was a cure for the ills of drink and drugs - it's just a better solution than others available.
1. Market pricing - lower cost = higher consumption. Higher consumption = more social and health problems but no tax means the burden of dealing with these falls heavily on the state.
2. Banning/restriction. Highly unpopular due to the ingrained cultural legitimacy. The level of addiction (every at minor levels such as a drink every night after work that people wouldn't/couldn't give up) creates a large market for criminal enterprises and creates a potential health and safety risk from bootleg booze. So health and social problems and costs with an added policing and crime cost element, not to mention the jobs lost on farms/production exacerbating that. All with absolutely no tax on whatsoever to help pay for it.
3. Higher taxation. Tax money helps to pay for the health and social problems it causes. Increased price means for most except those with severe addictions they can still enjoy it but extra cost should slightly reduce consumption and thus have some health and social benefits while minimising the opportunity for criminals.

If that policy isn't working at reducing consumption it's because the addiction rates are far worse than stated. If you can't stop drinking even if it's costing you more than you can afford, you are an alcoholic and you have a severe addiction that requires major help from the health services.

I was with you for the first two paragraphs and then you lost me.

If you highly tax something then the black market will continue to flourish (think cigarettes in the UK).

And lower cost does not equal higher consumption - take Portugal as a prime example.

The fact is that people will always take substances to alter their state of mind and this isn’t a society thing, it appears to be a human nature thing, as all different types and social levels of people take them.

What is right and what is wrong is up for massive debate, however, our current policy is clearly not working. The Yanks ‘War on drugs’ (ie an excuse for bombing the shit out of somewhere) also doesn’t work so at some point, someone, has to sit down and have a rational look at it and make a judgement call rather than all of the sensationalist bollocks we have to hear at the moment.

 

[Mcbean]

Know very little about drugs but drink I could write a book - most Europeans who drink alcohol do so in small glasses and it is treated as an accompaniment to food - local wines are less strong and not full of the preservatives that we end up drinking - our insistance on drinking pints and drinking for drinking sake or self pity is our downfall . Very often Europeans will be drinking coffee or tea rather than alcohol as it dehydrates the body in hot weather

Cheers !

 

[LastGarrison]

Know very little about drugs but drink I could write a book - most Europeans who drink alcohol do so in small glasses and it is treated as an accompaniment to food - local wines are less strong and not full of the preservatives that we end up drinking - our insistance on drinking pints and drinking for drinking sake or self pity is our downfall . Very often Europeans will be drinking coffee or tea rather than alcohol as it dehydrates the body in hot weather

Cheers !

I would usually agree but I have just spent 8 hours on the wine and palinka with two Hungarians until 3 this morning in Budapest and believe me there was no water in sight.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I was with you for the first two paragraphs and then you lost me.

If you highly tax something then the black market will continue to flourish (think cigarettes in the UK).

And lower cost does not equal higher consumption - take Portugal as a prime example.

The fact is that people will always take substances to alter their state of mind and this isn’t a society thing, it appears to be a human nature thing, as all different types and social levels of people take them.

What is right and what is wrong is up for massive debate, however, our current policy is clearly not working. The Yanks ‘War on drugs’ (ie an excuse for bombing the shit out of somewhere) also doesn’t work so at some point, someone, has to sit down and have a rational look at it and make a judgement call rather than all of the sensationalist bollocks we have to hear at the moment.

The point with the tax was it provides much less opportunity for the black market than a ban would. Obviously it gives them more opportunity than low taxation. The thing for me is the trade off between providing for the problems it causes.

With the consumption thing with things like alcohol it's not as straight forward as most other things because it has an addictive quality and cost is more a deciding factor on which drink you choose. But price does affect consumption levels - that's why they had things like Happy Hour and Shots For £1 (and usually early on). Get people to have that first drink, and end up buying more even when the price has increased because they get the taste for it and their decison making has become impaired by the alcohol.

If you go to a restaurant and were asked if you wanted a bottle of wine and you could get it for say £10-20 you'd probably say "yeah why not". Make it £50-100 and the answer would be "no thanks".

 

[Mcbean]

I would usually agree but I have just spent 8 hours on the wine and palinka with two Hungarians until 3 this morning in Budapest and believe me there was no water in sight.

Excellent - please excuse the-Western Europe generalisation infamous exceptions accepted - I too have experienced Ukrainians forcing Vodka down me for a day at a time and me using water to stop the glass refilling - different rules for Finland , East Europe and as you point out Central Europeans

 

[fellatio_Martinez]

If you go to a restaurant and were asked if you wanted a bottle of wine and you could get it for say £10-20 you'd probably say "yeah why not". Make it £50-100 and the answer would be "no thanks".

Well that's effectively just punishing poorer people.

Know very little about drugs but drink I could write a book - most Europeans who drink alcohol do so in small glasses and it is treated as an accompaniment to food - local wines are less strong and not full of the preservatives that we end up drinking - our insistance on drinking pints and drinking for drinking sake or self pity is our downfall . Very often Europeans will be drinking coffee or tea rather than alcohol as it dehydrates the body in hot weather

Cheers !

Saying that Europeans drink less beer / pints is a bit off old bean!



Volume of beer consumed per capita in Europe, by country (in litres)

Czech Republic 138
Austria 105
Germany 101
Poland 97
Estonia 82
Romania 82
Latvia 79
Croatia 79
Ireland 79
Slovenia 78
Luxembourg 76
Bulgaria 74
Slovakia 72
Netherlands 70
United Kingdom 67

 

[Mcbean]

Well that's effectively just punishing poorer people.



Saying that Europeans drink less beer / pints is a bit off old bean!



Volume of beer consumed per capita in Europe, by country (in litres)

Czech Republic 138
Austria 105
Germany 101
Poland 97
Estonia 82
Romania 82
Latvia 79
Croatia 79
Ireland 79
Slovenia 78
Luxembourg 76
Bulgaria 74
Slovakia 72
Netherlands 70
United Kingdom 67

I stand corrected ! Lightweights - we seem not to handle it so well ?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Well that's effectively just punishing poorer people.

Maybe to a certain extent. I just used those figures as an example of what I personally would look at. For other they might not go that high. Many others would go much much higher. With a tax it would obviously be dependent on the price of the bottle to begin with.

It can be argued a lot of the social costs and problems from alcohol are predominantly created by poorer people, but there are a huge amount of hidden problems in more affluent families causing kids a great deal of mental health problems.

I accept that as the prices go up it probably doesn't necessarily affect consumption much, just which brand you drink.

 

[fellatio_Martinez]

I stand corrected ! Lightweights - we seem not to handle it so well ?

I'm not sure why but it seems English, Scots and Irish seem particularly prone to acting up while on the sauce.

I've seen business men drink beer on their commutes to work in Germany and in Poland 24hr off licences full of cheap booze but zero trouble. I know that's anecdotal evidence but there's definitely something to it.

Maybe being an Island nation makes us mad bastards.

 

[clint van damme]

Maybe to a certain extent. I just used those figures as an example of what I personally would look at. For other they might not go that high. Many others would go much much higher. With a tax it would obviously be dependent on the price of the bottle to begin with.

It can be argued a lot of the social costs and problems from alcohol are predominantly created by poorer people, but there are a huge amount of hidden problems in more affluent families causing kids a great deal of mental health problems.

I accept that as the prices go up it probably doesn't necessarily affect consumption much, just which brand you drink.

They've introduced pricing regulations in Canada and Scotland.
Massive reductions in alcohol related deaths in Canada, mot a blind bit of difference in Scotland. You've got to admire their commitment to the session.

 

[shmmeee]

Well that's effectively just punishing poorer people.



Saying that Europeans drink less beer / pints is a bit off old bean!



Volume of beer consumed per capita in Europe, by country (in litres)

Czech Republic 138
Austria 105
Germany 101
Poland 97
Estonia 82
Romania 82
Latvia 79
Croatia 79
Ireland 79
Slovenia 78
Luxembourg 76
Bulgaria 74
Slovakia 72
Netherlands 70
United Kingdom 67

Is that just beer or all alcohol? My graph earlier suggests Brits have been switching away from beer recently.

 

[bringbackrattles]

Here in Bell Green we have many Eastern Europeans. A group of them gather every day/ night drinking cans outside the newsagents/ off licence, which is open to 11 pm 7 days a week. They seem merry enough, and dont really bother you too much. But a few months ago it kicked off between a dozen of them, and what a scrap it was ! Bodies lying prone, and one bloke waving a machete about. The cavalry arrived near the end of the battle, and the machete bloke got tasered. All of us in the flats had a grandstand view, and I've never seen someone get tasered before, he was writhing around like a fish on a slab. Never heard what caused the fight, but you'd pay good money to watch it at a MMA event !

 

[fellatio_Martinez]

Is that just beer or all alcohol? My graph earlier suggests Brits have been switching away from beer recently.

That one was for beer. The UK is even lower in the overall alcohol consumption scale.

Litres of alcohol consumed per capita

1 Belarus 17.50
2 Moldova 16.80
3 Lithuania 15.40
4 Russia 15.10
5 Romania 14.40
6 Ukraine 13.90
7 Andorra 13.80
8 Hungary 13.30
9 Czech Republic 13.00
10 Slovakia 13.00
11 Portugal 12.90
12 Serbia 12.60
13 Grenada 12.50
14 Poland 12.50
15 Latvia 12.30
16 Finland 12.30
17 South Korea 12.30
18 France 12.20
19 Australia 12.20
20 Croatia 12.20
21 Ireland 11.90
22 Luxembourg 11.90
23 Germany 11.80
24 Slovenia 11.60
25 United Kingdom 11.60

 

[Nick]

Is that just beer or all alcohol? My graph earlier suggests Brits have been switching away from beer recently.

Blame the Woo Woo.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Blame the Woo Woo.

Why not the sunshine, moonlight or good times?

 

[Nick]

Why not the sunshine, moonlight or good times?

That's not manly enough.