They've run us up against a cliff edge of and they've moved to tip us over (13 Viewers)

James Smith · Aug 1, 2013

CCFC_GT said:
Forget SISU and think about the football club for a minute.

The offer on the table now is absolutely a good rent deal and reduces expenditure for the football club which is great, but it doesn't help the football club one jot with income for FFP calculation.

My view is and has always been that the football club adds value to the Ricoh as a business way beyond match days, and should have access . For example the naming rights to the arena will IMHO not have the same income value in future without CCFC.

As PWKH pointed out some time ago "match day revenues are not sufficient to make any real difference to the gap between the other commercial incomes of the Club and the wages. In order to have a self-sufficient club which does not rely on pulling in money every years as loans or investments or whatever it needs to have 365 days a year income. That was the business model that drove the design of the Ricoh."

Yes the rent was too high, but we wouldn't be in this position if SISU had apporached ACL and negotiated in the first place instead of just blundering on with the rent boycott. HAd they done things in a calm and civilised way we could have owned at least half of ACL and be negotiating with the council for the rest and possibly a loner lease.
ACL could just have kicked us out after the escrow ran out and to be honest that would have well and truly f*cked us. The fact that the didn't and have they've made this offer is either because they don't want the team to move because Coventry City Football Club belongs in Coventry, or because they're desperate for the money. You decide - I know what I think.

covcity4life · Aug 1, 2013

yeh, how can anyone be happy with ACL behaviour

they have lost every single battle with SISU and their refusal to admit defeat is dragging the club down

if they had given us this rent reduction earlier the relationship with SISU wouldn't have deteriorated so much.

they know this is a fair price,before they were jsut being greedy because they felt they held all the cards. idiots.

Wm65 · Aug 1, 2013

blueflint said:
what a load of shit non payment of rent failing to negotiate correctly put us here SISU to blame nobody else end of

KeresleySBA said:
The excuse before this was 'ACL had made it clear there is no deal to be done'. Well now there's a deal to be done, whats the next excuse Fisher...

covcity4life said:
yeh, how can anyone be happy with ACL behaviour

they have lost every single battle with SISU and their refusal to admit defeat is dragging the club down

if they had given us this rent reduction earlier the relationship with SISU wouldn't have deteriorated so much.

they know this is a fair price,before they were jsut being greedy because they felt they held all the cards. idiots.

Spot on .

ccfcmustang · Aug 1, 2013

I am struggling to see how SISU are still continuing to pay everyones wages while a day away from liquidation. I dont know if this has happened before but for example Hearts FC havent paid the players for months and we are closer to liquidation than what they are? I agree that the offer from ACL isnt sustainable for a football club in any division however first things first, owning the Ricoh will not garuarntee any success. SISU want the Ricoh its as simple as that, they have never cared about the playing side of the club it is evident. 4/5 years ago we had a team of westwood, scott dann, danny fox, gunnarsson, henderson, juke, and had the chance to sign andy carroll for 1mil. Imagine what we could of done with owners with real ambition. SISU out

robbieray · Aug 1, 2013

Whoever landed us here its obvious Sisu dont like the fans, they dont want to negotiate with ACL why dont they just sell up?

Wm65 · Aug 1, 2013

blueflint said:
what a load of shit non payment of rent failing to negotiate correctly put us here SISU to blame nobody else end of

KeresleySBA said:
The excuse before this was 'ACL had made it clear there is no deal to be done'. Well now there's a deal to be done, whats the next excuse Fisher...

covcity4life said:
yeh, how can anyone be happy with ACL behaviour

they have lost every single battle with SISU and their refusal to admit defeat is dragging the club down

if they had given us this rent reduction earlier the relationship with SISU wouldn't have deteriorated so much.

they know this is a fair price,before they were jsut being greedy because they felt they held all the cards. idiots.

robbieray said:
Whoever landed us here its obvious Sisu dont like the fans, they dont want to negotiate with ACL why dont they just sell up?

jesus-wept · Aug 1, 2013

Normal comment and bluster from Mr Fisher, lets see what he does and says tomorrow and how he explains why to the outside world.

italiahorse · Aug 1, 2013

fernandopartridge said:
Why didn't they offer it back in January? Actually, why wasn't it offered in 2005?

It was not a problem in 2005 and only became a problem when we dropped out the Championship. Also £1.2M million in the Premiership would not be an issue.

The point is that we don't know the details of the negotiations.
Just imagine if SISU said we want it for nothing (Full Stop) and ACL kept bringing it down in an attempt to negotiate. They work down to 400k and SISU say no we still want it for nothing. ACL say can't agree that and say you either negotiate or we pull out. Sisu say tough and ACL say no further negotiations. SISU say its ACL fault.

Noggin · Aug 1, 2013

covcity4life said:
yeh, how can anyone be happy with ACL behaviour

they have lost every single battle with SISU and their refusal to admit defeat is dragging the club down

if they had given us this rent reduction earlier the relationship with SISU wouldn't have deteriorated so much.

they know this is a fair price,before they were jsut being greedy because they felt they held all the cards. idiots.

Assuming this rent includes the 300k of match day fees then it's at a big loss to ACL and they are only offering it out of desperation, no reasonable person would have expected them to offer this before.

covcity4life · Aug 1, 2013

its funny how you only imagine it from one side all the time italia.

James Smith · Aug 1, 2013

italiahorse said:
It was not a problem in 2005 and only became a problem when we dropped out the Championship. Also £1.2M million in the Premiership would not be an issue.

The point is that we don't know the details of the negotiations.
Just imagine if SISU said we want it for nothing (Full Stop) and ACL kept bringing it down in an attempt to negotiate. They work down to 400k and SISU say no we still want it for nothing. ACL say can't agree that and say you either negotiate or we pull out. Sisu say tough and ACL say no further negotiations. SISU say its ACL fault.

Maybe they said that about the freehold not the rent, that would fit with Ann Lucas saying that she had to protect an asset of the city.

AJB1983 · Aug 1, 2013

It's a strange way of going about your business if you would like access to revenues, which means effectively going into partnership with ACL, when all you've done in the past eighteen months is not pay your rent, spout in the media how evil acl are, legal threats against the council and acl directors, not agree anything and them basically move out to try and screw the Ricoh.
Surely when you are trying to get into bed with someone you go on the charm offensive and try and work with them and agree on things.
I'm not surprised acl don't want to give up a share to these people, I don't want them to.
Remember acl board members are city fans, only reason they were able to finish last season at the Ricoh was because of this, and equally why this last ditch offer was made. Fisher and sepala simply do not want to know.

italiahorse · Aug 1, 2013

Wm65 said:
Acl have pissed about playing games and sisu have called their bluff - now acl are panicking and squirming - they should have made the offer to sisu long ago - now the damage is done and acl as well as sisu must hang their heads in shame.

The damage could be sorted tomorrow. CCFC at the Ricoh, SISU with a peppercorn rent.
But SISU won't agree because they want it for nothing. So they will pin there hopes on a Judicial Review which will take CCFC down while we wait for it..
A review that will ask the question "Did CCC misuse public funds by giving ACL a loan with 3% interest rate?". FFS I can only get 2.5% on my ISA.

ccfcmustang · Aug 1, 2013

I can only remember SISU ever paying for Juke which was 1million. Never saw any money from westwood fox dann turner gunnarsson sale of juke. They would obviously claim that that money was paying off debts but they would of knew from the moment they bought the club if CCFC get relegated they would not be able to afford the rent at all. Being in the premier league would of squashed that problem outright. They had the chance 4/5 years ago to build a premier league team (all of them players are now in the PL) and this rent issue would not have been a problem. So how can anyone blame anyone else other than SISU when they sold our quality players and failed to reinvest. SISU by their own accord have placed this club in this situation. If SISU shown any signs of building for the future maybe ACL would of negotiated a deal to buy the Ricoh. Who can blame them for not doing so.

CCFC_GT · Aug 1, 2013

James Smith said:
Yes the rent was too high, but we wouldn't be in this position if SISU had apporached ACL and negotiated in the first place instead of just blundering on with the rent boycott. HAd they done things in a calm and civilised way we could have owned at least half of ACL and be negotiating with the council for the rest and possibly a loner lease.
ACL could just have kicked us out after the escrow ran out and to be honest that would have well and truly f*cked us. The fact that the didn't and have they've made this offer is either because they don't want the team to move because Coventry City Football Club belongs in Coventry, or because they're desperate for the money. You decide - I know what I think.

I agree with everything you have said, which doesn't contradict anything I said.

In my view the overwhelming reason ACL has offered a deal is financial and it is designed to appeal to the desperation of fans to play in Coventry. If SISU does ultimately relent and accept a deal, it will only be because it is otherwise relying on destroying ACL as I never see SISU recovering its accumulated losses through a new stadium build.

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 1, 2013

italiahorse said:
and only became a problem when we dropped out the Championship.

Robinson made moves to look for a reduction way back when.

tbf to ACL at the time he wanted that, I think they weren't in as healthy shape as they are now, so chances are a deal couldn't have been agreed as who picks up the losses? But it does show the absolute stupidity of football club and football stadium being under two separate arms when they both (absolutely correctly) need to look after their own interests.

But those interests aren't necessarily going to meet, always.

Ashdown1 · Aug 1, 2013

I still cannot believe that people cannot see the situation for what it is and always has been or it has for at least the last couple of years. SISU have pulled the legs off the CCFC spider one by one in an attempt to gain control of the Arena at any cost. Their blatant disregard for the actual football club and its fans is despicable and totally spiteful now. They have no comprehension or feelings for what a football club is to many people and the effects it has on peoples social lives and family and friend bonds that go back for generations. Hedge funds are immoral at best even when dealing in the business world at this level when its a community asset dating from 1883 though it renders them repulsive vermin !
Even if everyone gave in to them its fairly obvious that revenue and contracts derived from the footfall from the supporters would not benefit the club, they would separate it and likely still load debt against the club wherever possible. I hope ACL tell them to fuck off, not because I think they are blameless either but because when push came to shove they have made attempts at compromise but the hedge fund wanted it all !
RIP CCFC !

James Smith · Aug 1, 2013

CCFC_GT said:
I agree with everything you have said, which doesn't contradict anything I said.

In my view the overwhelming reason ACL has offered a deal is financial and it is designed to appeal to the desperation of fans to play in Coventry. If SISU does ultimately relent and accept a deal, it will only be because it is otherwise relying on destroying ACL as I never see SISU recovering its accumulated losses through a new stadium build.

Sadly I can't see SISU accepting us playing at the Ricoh without essentially being given the stadium for nothing. This may just be rent free but if rumours are true about the talks last week then it could mean the freehold at which point the council might as well not bother negotiating and our SISU Sky Blues friend true sky blue would have a hissy fit.

I'll tell you what though I'll definitley go to the first match at the White Elephant Stadium that Tim is going to build. I'll buy snacks, a programme, drinks, CCFC merchandise and a premium seat - I'm that confident that it won't happen.

italiahorse · Aug 1, 2013

covcity4life said:
its funny how you only imagine it from one side all the time italia.

Likewise

The Penguin · Aug 1, 2013

fernandopartridge said:
Why didn't they offer it back in January? Actually, why wasn't it offered in 2005?

Why would you, as a business, offer less than someone is clearly willing to pay?

We should have negotiated harder in 2005.

January, though....well that's anyone's guess. I am doubtful it would have made a difference, given the behaviour of our illustrious owners.

covcity4life · Aug 1, 2013

italiahorse said:
Likewise

yeh i see your point,not like i have ever called sisu scum is it?

fernandopartridge · Aug 1, 2013

italiahorse said:
It was not a problem in 2005 and only became a problem when we dropped out the Championship. Also £1.2M million in the Premiership would not be an issue.

The point is that we don't know the details of the negotiations.
Just imagine if SISU said we want it for nothing (Full Stop) and ACL kept bringing it down in an attempt to negotiate. They work down to 400k and SISU say no we still want it for nothing. ACL say can't agree that and say you either negotiate or we pull out. Sisu say tough and ACL say no further negotiations. SISU say its ACL fault.

the implication from the offer is that £1.2m was excessive to the extreme for a Championship club

duffer · Aug 1, 2013

I think it's perfectly obvious from SISU's response to the current offer that they've never negotiatied in good faith.

It proves it's never been about the rent - there's no figure that ACL could offer that could ever be good enough for SISU.

SISU have just played along and stretched things out for as long as possible whilst maximising the debt in CCFC Ltd and transferring the assets out in preparation for this day. It's always been about getting their hands on the Ricoh, but not by paying a fair price, by distressing ACL to the point of failure.

Personally, I think they've shown themselves to be human effluent. I subscribe to the idea that a man is as good as his word, and their words aren't worth sh*t, frankly.

James Smith · Aug 1, 2013

This is just history repeating

Sort of

Les Reid tweet said:
Les Reid ‏@Lesreidpolitics 1m
BREAKING EXCLUSIVE 1: Ricoh firm ACL seek 10-yr rent deal with #CCFC of £150k in League 1, £400k Championship, £100k L2

PWKH said:
Way back when, when McGinnity was Chairman, the late Sir Derek Higgs proposed a new rent structure. He was director of CCFC and ACL. His rent proposal was to have a base rent set for each League with increases linked to attendance. McGinnity and Hover, then Chief Executive of CCFC, rejected this outright as although there were reductions for Championship, League One etc, there would have been an increase in the base in the Premiership.

So we had a sliding rent offered before and the club turned it down.

Grendel · Aug 1, 2013

The Penguin said:
Why would you, as a business, offer less than someone is clearly willing to pay?

.

Are you saying no morality in business?

Are you talking sisu here or ACL I'm confused. At least you agree ACL are blatant profiteers and as greedy as our illustrious owners.

If only our council and swansea's could've swapped places we would be in a far better place.

Snozz_is_god · Aug 1, 2013

Ashdown1 said:
I still cannot believe that people cannot see the situation for what it is and always has been or it has for at least the last couple of years. SISU have pulled the legs off the CCFC spider one by one in an attempt to gain control of the Arena at any cost. Their blatant disregard for the actual football club and its fans is despicable and totally spiteful now. They have no comprehension or feelings for what a football club is to many people and the effects it has on peoples social lives and family and friend bonds that go back for generations. Hedge funds are immoral at best even when dealing in the business world at this level when its a community asset dating from 1883 though it renders them repulsive vermin !
Even if everyone gave in to them its fairly obvious that revenue and contracts derived from the footfall from the supporters would not benefit the club, they would separate it and likely still load debt against the club wherever possible. I hope ACL tell them to fuck off, not because I think they are blameless either but because when push came to shove they have made attempts at compromise but the hedge fund wanted it all !
RIP CCFC !

Couldn't of put it better myself.

The Penguin · Aug 1, 2013

James Smith said:
So we had a sliding rent offered before and the club turned it down.

Yeah, and look who turned it down?

McGinnity and Hover.

I would post what I think of them but it's likely to have me done for libel and slander!

Grendel · Aug 1, 2013

James Smith said:
Sort of

So we had a sliding rent offered before and the club turned it down.

So what? That's like blaming the current owners for selling Kevin Gallagher.

bigfatronssba · Aug 1, 2013

Grendel said:
So what? That's like blaming the current owners for selling Kevin Gallagher.

So your saying contractual agreements should change every time a business changes ownership?

The Penguin · Aug 1, 2013

Grendel said:
Are you saying no morality in business?

Are you talking sisu here or ACL I'm confused. At least you agree ACL are blatant profiteers and as greedy as our illustrious owners.

If only our council and swansea's could've swapped places we would be in a far better place.

Well, isn't there the old saying that something is only worth what somebody is willing to pay?

In other words, we were once willing to pay 1.2m to rent the stadium, so that's what ACL got away with.

I have said before that I felt that was an absolutely ridiculous sum to pay, even if we were in the Premiership, especially since it was purely for the right to play there and nothing else.

Blatant profiteers and greedy? Well....yeah. They're running a business too, aren't they? SISU are no different. Doesn't mean I have to support or condone their behaviour, either, especially since they've shown they give not a single fuck for the supporters.

It is possible to understand why they charged us such an insanely high rent while similarly condemning that same rent amount for being too high, you know.

James Smith · Aug 1, 2013

Grendel said:
So what? That's like blaming the current owners for selling Kevin Gallagher.

I was just pointing out that historically we've sort of been here before, not making any judgements or blaming anyone.

kmj5000 · Aug 1, 2013

Ashdown1 said:
I still cannot believe that people cannot see the situation for what it is and always has been or it has for at least the last couple of years. SISU have pulled the legs off the CCFC spider one by one in an attempt to gain control of the Arena at any cost. Their blatant disregard for the actual football club and its fans is despicable and totally spiteful now. They have no comprehension or feelings for what a football club is to many people and the effects it has on peoples social lives and family and friend bonds that go back for generations. Hedge funds are immoral at best even when dealing in the business world at this level when its a community asset dating from 1883 though it renders them repulsive vermin !
Even if everyone gave in to them its fairly obvious that revenue and contracts derived from the footfall from the supporters would not benefit the club, they would separate it and likely still load debt against the club wherever possible. I hope ACL tell them to fuck off, not because I think they are blameless either but because when push came to shove they have made attempts at compromise but the hedge fund wanted it all !
RIP CCFC !

Well said!

procdoc · Aug 1, 2013

I wish someone would push Tim Fisher off a cliff, although that would probably require a bulldozer

CCFC PimpRail · Aug 1, 2013

The Penguin said:
Well, isn't there the old saying that something is only worth what somebody is willing to pay?

In other words, we were once willing to pay 1.2m to rent the stadium, so that's what ACL got away with.

I have said before that I felt that was an absolutely ridiculous sum to pay, even if we were in the Premiership, especially since it was purely for the right to play there and nothing else.

Up to a point, but then you've got to think about how much it would cost to build a stadium in the first place, and then how much the mortgage repayments would be on that figure. Since SISU are so keen to build a stadium, try approaching them as a potential major tenant and asking how much rent they would charge you on their 30 million investment. Better still, just rob the keys off them....

TWO things annoy me about finances within football, firstly the amount we're talking about is about a month's wages for one good footballer, so how can the FL let a club with so much history go to rot because it is down in the third tier...??

AND where did all the money go...? For decades clubs absolutely raked it in when they owned their own grounds and entertained massive standing crowds of 40k+ and yet had small overheads when Footballers earnt less than a miner down Binley Pit. If you look at the finances when Highfield Road closed, it looks like they walked out with just the team. That should bode well when Coventry United start in earnest...

They've run us up against a cliff edge of and they've moved to tip us over (13 Viewers)

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