This deserves its own thread Old Sky Blue (4 Viewers)

[HateFootball]

HateFottball, OSB,

Hedge funds - Their objective is to make money. How does that make them any different than other investors?
The difference I see is Hedge Funds are specialized in making money from debt ridden and almost out-of-business companies, whereas 'normal' investors make money from already profitable (or likely to be in a short time window - a window that is bigger in good times and smaller in bad times).
Five years ago, when the financial world was booming, we probably could have attracted 'normal' investors as their patience to long term investments were bigger, but today we don't really have a choice. So unless there are normal investors out there being promissed they can have it all - the Ricoh, all income streams, all surrounding building prospects if only they accept to take along the football club, then we are stuck with what we have.

Communication - Hedge funds don't do public communications for a lot of reasons, but mostly because of what they do. They are in the public oppinion seen as vultures who thrive on others misfortune. In our case they left all communications to Ranson. And he did communicate in the beginning, but he became more silent as the income failed to match the budgets and he realized that a hedge fund is no sugardaddy.
When he was ousted and sisu took over the board they did try to communicate, but that didn't really go well. Clash of ego's in Brody and Dulieu who are both very communicative, but have very different - ehm - skill levels. KD was chairman and bound to win that contest, so LB went back to Canada .... and KD went back to Switzerland or whereever he lives. It all went from bad to worse. Now Tim Fisher is installed to do whatever communication he can, but even if I think he is doing a pretty decent job, nobody is ever going to listen or even trust his words. He will need 2 or 3 years to restore trust, but he is probably never going to get that.

The situation is looking very desperate and everybody is very creative in finding facts that our current owners have gotten this and that wrong. But is it helpful at this moment?
Is there no way we can help save the club?

Not all hedge funds make money from distressed companies. Some are experts in commodoties, others in equity options, others in currencies. One thing they have in common is to make lots with minimum risk.

SISU will do what they will and my gut tells me that they will restructure.

A rich overseas investor looking to raise their international profile to deter state persecution is a possibility.

A long shot would be to raise cash with an offer of warrants in CCFC with a strike price of the current debt levels.

The only potential investors who would be willing to become share-holders on this basis would be die-hard fans who trust SISU. Not a big market I would guess!

 

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[MusicDating]

How likely? Given that CCFC is losing cash at a prodigious rate and loses access to the £3m parachute payments from the second tier, I'd say SISU would be crazy not to put the club into administration at some point.

But - they were crazy to invest in the first place, so maybe they'll surprise us!

It's all about timing and when debts fall due. Clearly while there was hope in the second tier, the points deduction would not make sense. Furthermore if large invoices are coming due, it's best to wait until you have a pile of bills to pay before attempting to liquidate the assets. That way, the 'newco' would rid itself of a lot more debt.

SISU knows very well what it's doing here and I'd say they were biding their time. They're just about to make a ton of cash from a telco investment in Europe. There's no rush just yet.

Would SISU be waiting until the Football Creditors Rule ruling is announced? If as expected it gets scrapped, could they then save themselves from having to pay 100% to all football creditors?...

 

[HateFootball]

A long shot would be to raise cash with an offer of warrants in CCFC with a strike price of the current debt levels.

The only potential investors who would be willing to become share-holders on this basis would be die-hard fans who trust SISU. Not a big market I would guess!

Perhaps the Warrants aren't such a long-shot afterall for SISU. Bizarre.

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/co...not-help-club-at-all-say-sisu-92746-30875197/

Last page:

"To this end, we will be exploring ways of transferring an ownership stake in the club to our supporters."

 

[BrisbaneBronco]

Perhaps the Warrants aren't such a long-shot afterall for SISU. Bizarre.

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/co...not-help-club-at-all-say-sisu-92746-30875197/

Last page:

"To this end, we will be exploring ways of transferring an ownership stake in the club to our supporters."

So they will give fans the opportunity to purchase shares, the same shares they obtained for nothing. Yeah right!!!

 

[HateFootball]

So they will give fans the opportunity to purchase shares, the same shares they obtained for nothing. Yeah right!!!

£30m isn't nothing. The club had substantial debts driving it into administration. SISU bailed them out.

Why is there scant recognition of SISU's remarkable investment in a loss-making club, with poor local support and no stadium?

I'm struggling. I'm really struggling how all that can be discounted when the players and coach perform miserably.

 

[dongonzalos]

£30m isn't nothing. The club had substantial debts driving it into administration. SISU bailed them out.

Why is there scant recognition of SISU's remarkable investment in a loss-making club, with poor local support and no stadium?

I'm struggling. I'm really struggling how all that can be discounted when the players and coach perform miserably.

So they took over and correct me if I am wrong but they said we have a business plan to achieve within 3 years

1) own our own stadium
2) promotion to the premiership
3) Make the club debt free

Measuring their success five years on

1) Made the council their enemy, no chance of ever getting even half the stadium
2) relegation to division 1
3) Losing half a million every month and reportedly 30 million of debts

I am really struggling to understand what you are really struggling with.

If they had not came i to save they day, we would have dropped into administration. We would have dropped into the bottom three by 4 points. We would have been virtually debt free then they could have taken over the club.

Why did they not do this? Competition for owning the club if we had gone into administration other buyers would have come on the scene.

I have no sympathy for them. Their bad business decisions has screwed us

 

[Godiva]

So they took over and correct me if I am wrong but they said we have a business plan to achieve within 3 years

1) own our own stadium
2) promotion to the premiership
3) Make the club debt free

Measuring their success five years on

1) Made the council their enemy, no chance of ever getting even half the stadium
2) relegation to division 1
3) Losing half a million every month and reportedly 30 million of debts

I am really struggling to understand what you are really struggling with.

If they had not came i to save they day, we would have dropped into administration. We would have dropped into the bottom three by 4 points. We would have been virtually debt free then they could have taken over the club.

Why did they not do this? Competition for owning the club if we had gone into administration other buyers would have come on the scene.

I have no sympathy for them. Their bad business decisions has screwed us

This is from FAQ-3:

Many have questioned if SISU even have a plan other than to make as much money as they possibly can. This is what Ranson said about the vision after he first became chairman:” We want to gain financial stability and a platform to achieve the clubs commercial and sporting aspirations, which is promotion to the Premiership followed by repurchase of a 50% share in the Ricoh Arena home”

There’s a plan in there, a step by step layout, - First we get the losses under control
then we will become strong enough to gain promotion, Finally we will buy half the stadium

It's important so see the priority in their original plan, as the initial investment plan have most likely been made to match that.

So when income failed through the declaining numbers through the gates, then priority number one was never met. I blame Ranson for being too much a football man and too little a business man and make sure the costs were cut quickly to fit the overall priority. He may have tried, but too lttle, too late.

 

[HateFootball]

So they took over and correct me if I am wrong but they said we have a business plan to achieve within 3 years

1) own our own stadium
2) promotion to the premiership
3) Make the club debt free

Measuring their success five years on

1) Made the council their enemy, no chance of ever getting even half the stadium
2) relegation to division 1
3) Losing half a million every month and reportedly 30 million of debts

I am really struggling to understand what you are really struggling with.

If they had not came i to save they day, we would have dropped into administration. We would have dropped into the bottom three by 4 points. We would have been virtually debt free then they could have taken over the club.

Why did they not do this? Competition for owning the club if we had gone into administration other buyers would have come on the scene.

I have no sympathy for them. Their bad business decisions has screwed us

They had the courage to invest. There is little recognition of that in many of the contributors to this forum.

I see a lynch-mob mentality with little understanding of how the world works. Walking away from debts is not a panacea. How many businesses, jobs, livelihoods would have been wrecked in Coventry as a result? Is that the price we have to pay in the city for lousy footballers and fair-weather fans?

There's a willingness, a desire, a myopic optimism to forgive or make allowances for the "talent", yet all the time scape-goating and conveniently ignoring the fact that SISU put in £40m and that it was the players, coach and fans that failed to deliver success and let CCFC down.

£40m and state-of-the-art new stadium and what did players and fans achieve?

The nearest mirror is where most players and fans will find the source of their grievance with CCFC, but no one likes to admit failure.

Tom Donnelly

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Fans have stood by the club through decades of non achievement with one summer of glory 25 years ago in return. To be criticising them at this time when people are still renewing despite the worst season in 50 years I find difficult to understand.

 

[HateFootball]

Fans have stood by the club through decades of non achievement with one summer of glory 25 years ago in return. To be criticising them at this time when people are still renewing despite the worst season in 50 years I find difficult to understand.

Sure... but a gate of 13,000 in a city of 300,000 with no other league football team?

Come on....

Wigan.. pop. 80,000 Average Gate 22,000

SISU is not the problem.

The numbers speak

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I point you again to the disproportionately long time this club has gone without league success-no other club has performed so poorly for so long and that is why our crowds are poor in comparison with the majority of other teams.

 

[HateFootball]

I point you again to the disproportionately long time this club has gone without league success-no other club has performed so poorly for so long and that is why our crowds are poor in comparison with the majority of other teams.

I've argued facts, I've argued numbers, but perhaps I'll never convince you. I am convinced however, that the fair-weather fans are a major contributing factor to CCFC's problems and they are in denial.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

And I've argued context and mitigating factors which you refuse to acknowledge-comparing a Premier League club's attendance with that of one heading into League One is not a like for like comparison I'm sure you'll agree. No club has achieved so little for so long-any other club would be struggling for good crowds just as we are in the same situation.

 

[Godiva]

All very good and probably historical correct, but when everybody has been assured and reassured that all errors were made in the past and whats been done and what the consequences were ... we still are were we are.
Leave the past to the auditors and historians and lets look to the future.

With what we have and the platform we stand on ... what constructive ideas do any of you have?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Allow all players who don't wish to stay to leave. Divide their wages into two, using one half to go into the fund to sign good quality 3rd tier players and loans, and the other half to be used to stem the club's losses. Make the attack the priority, followed by the midfield-I have confidence in the defence even assuming Cranie/Keogh depart (a fit McPake and Wood will do equally well in L1), and in Murphy we have a solid keeper for that division. A goalscoring partner for Cody, and pacy wingers should be the focus-which means that Bell has no place in the side.

However, all of this is irrelevant if we don't exist-which makes SISU related debates very relevant.

 

[Grendel]

So they took over and correct me if I am wrong but they said we have a business plan to achieve within 3 years

1) own our own stadium
2) promotion to the premiership
3) Make the club debt free

Measuring their success five years on

1) Made the council their enemy, no chance of ever getting even half the stadium
2) relegation to division 1
3) Losing half a million every month and reportedly 30 million of debts

I am really struggling to understand what you are really struggling with.

If they had not came i to save they day, we would have dropped into administration. We would have dropped into the bottom three by 4 points. We would have been virtually debt free then they could have taken over the club.

Why did they not do this? Competition for owning the club if we had gone into administration other buyers would have come on the scene.

I have no sympathy for them. Their bad business decisions has screwed us

Unfortunately there are several fallacies to the argument. You often imply that administration would have been OK as we would be debt free and also not near relegation. The fact is as a club we were in freefall and there were collosal debts which had to be negotiated and would not have been wiped out. Indeed your inference that we could wave debts away to local businesses with no moral compunction makes me wonder why you bother to criticise Pompey. We would also have been relegated. We would have had an embargo and not signed players so no Dann and no Fox.

There would have been very few buyers on the scene, there was one. A consortium fronted by Geoffrey Robinson and the administrators may have elected them as owners.

Sadly you really are away with the fairies if you think owning this club is an investment. It's an albatross round SISU's neck. I was mystified why they bought but they did and have they really fared much worse than clown McGinnity who sacked the only decent managers we had since relegation and the farcical operation premiership bunch who bloated the squad with over paid mediocrity raking up debt after debt and virtually bought the club to it's knees.

If you seriously think £30 million of investors money is going to be surrendered think again. Whatever there ills (and there are many) they are the only game in town.

Protesters remind me more of the Tooting Poplar Front than Tolpuddle Martyrs. Protest against what and for what? Time to move on support the team and see what happens.

 

[dadgad]

Protest against what and for what? Time to move on support the team and see what happens.

:jerkit:

....and that'd involve supporting the manager too, you know?

 

[HateFootball]

Allow all players who don't wish to stay to leave. Divide their wages into two, using one half to go into the fund to sign good quality 3rd tier players and loans, and the other half to be used to stem the club's losses. Make the attack the priority, followed by the midfield-I have confidence in the defence even assuming Cranie/Keogh depart (a fit McPake and Wood will do equally well in L1), and in Murphy we have a solid keeper for that division. A goalscoring partner for Cody, and pacy wingers should be the focus-which means that Bell has no place in the side.

However, all of this is irrelevant if we don't exist-which makes SISU related debates very relevant.

You have a little image at the bottom of your posts saying "GET SISU OUT!"

Ok - so if that's your objective, then what plan would achieve it?

"Divide their wages into two, using one half to go into the fund to sign good quality 3rd tier players and loans, and the other half to be used to stem the club's losses."

Who is going to pay the wages if you have gotten rid of SISU?

There is total denial of the dire straits this business is in. You want to get rid of the investor but you also want to continue spending money?

What about the rent at the Ricoh and the mortgage payments?

What about the declining gate now the club is in division three?

Just stop and think things through for a minute.

Sloganeering won't fix things. Neither will an unwillingness to look facts in the face.

Tom Donnelly

 

[HateFootball]

And I've argued context and mitigating factors which you refuse to acknowledge-comparing a Premier League club's attendance with that of one heading into League One is not a like for like comparison I'm sure you'll agree. No club has achieved so little for so long-any other club would be struggling for good crowds just as we are in the same situation.

Mitigating? I think you're militating against common sense:

If Wigan had the population of Coventry and you extrapolated gate figures, then they would have almost 10 times the CCFC gate.

Your argument is that they are Premier? That would explain such a margin?

You know that does not add up.

Furthermore, Wigan is in a 10 mile sandwich between International brands such as Liverpool, Man U and Man C. yet they still manage to pull in twice as many fans as CCFC with a quarter of the population of Coventry.

Sweeping statements like "No club has achieved so little for so long" also undermine your arguments.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Stop being so condescending and maybe you'll get something more constructive. Your financial background does not give you license to patronise other posters.

 

[Puck]

I'm sure Tom, that Wigan are impressed that you've boosted their average attendance by 20%.

Given your financial expertise and gift for massaging figures, Tom, I'm sure they would be keen to know how you could also boost their finances at a stroke by 20%

 

[dongonzalos]

here you are for those who still dont know what AVRO ARVO are

 

[mark82]

When Wigan were 3rd tier they averaged between 3,000 up to 7,000 their last year. They now average about 16,000 last season (ie 2010/11)

 

[dongonzalos]

Oops looks like sisu are getting ready to liquidate.

They were planing this a year ago.

The sting in the tail

 

[rob9872]

And it was wrong a year ago and probably wrong now too. If anything it shows that they only play a tough game, but ACL have brought this to a head and they are ultimately responsible if we take an immediate 10 point hit. I don't care about this rubbish, I wan a successful team ON THE PITCH and this season we have a chance. My position may be different if promotion was unattainable but it clearly isn't at the moment.

 

[TheParsonsHose]

They could have waited until the playoff dream was over Rob but ACL are going to hang on the liquidation threat by SISU. The fact the the parties clearly hate each other would have put a stop to any sensible conversation about let's just see if we can make promotion.

 

[dongonzalos]

And it was wrong a year ago and probably wrong now too. If anything it shows that they only play a tough game, but ACL have brought this to a head and they are ultimately responsible if we take an immediate 10 point hit. I don't care about this rubbish, I wan a successful team ON THE PITCH and this season we have a chance. My position may be different if promotion was unattainable but it clearly isn't at the moment.

Which pitch?

 

[dongonzalos]

Hey have you looked at it yet. .. we are now coventry city football club limited. Coventry city holdings are gone.

Arvo are sisu. Clearly we are about to be liquidated

Remember this?

Normal business practice.

 

[dongonzalos]

Who exposed this.....

Nick would you mind putting thread into the main thread for a bit, considering there are no matches now and this is the biggest current issue for CCFC