Those hoping for WASPs demise (13 Viewers)

martcov · Apr 14, 2015

stupot07 said:
As OSB says we have a 2 + 2 year deal, and it's unclear whether those same assurances for the additional 2 years will still stand after CCC are out of the picture.

Also what happens in 3 years time?

Also, we have every right to feel bitter about the wasps deal, I find it odd that some aren't bothered. Bizarre really,

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

who is not bothered? Some have been hoping that we start negotiating with Wasps as a new stadium seems unlikely. This new move, if it happens, will shut out any hope of a good deal with Wasps. I would say that we are all bothered, but some had been hoping for a quick deal with Wasps to be ahead of something like this. They/we were called Wasps fans. But, it hasn't happened yet...... We were told by some that the Ricoh was worthless and a white elephant and by others that it was doing great without city. Then it wasn't a white elephant and we should have it and others now say it wasn't doing as well as stated without city. Now it is great and the debt will be paid off.... Who knows what the next move is.... ?

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Apr 14, 2015

tisza said:
Isn't the current deal significantly better than the sixfields deal which was for a pretty ordinary League 2 ground? and where we paid for a new pitch at least ACL are paying for this pitch.

So your argument is that the Ricoh is better than sixfields, congratulations of course it is better than sixfields but it still isn't a deal which matches our ambitions.

torchomatic · Apr 14, 2015

How much will the Council lose in interest if Wasps pay it off early?

Captain Dart · Apr 14, 2015

oldskyblue58 said:
Worryingly paying the loan off means any undertakings given to CCC about tenure for CCFC are likely to disappear too. Whilst it is locked in for another year I wonder what the terms of the option are for the two years after and who can activate the option.

I understood that the terms of the lease include accommodating CCFC and exclude 'penal' rental charges, however the actual terms are confidential and the reality may fall a little short of the rosey picture Mr Eastwood & Mrs Lucas painted. I guess the situation will become clearer when the initial 2 year deal is up, when I think there will some level of renegotiation, not that the current deal stops anyone discussing new terms or a longer deal right now.

chiefdave · Apr 14, 2015

lordsummerisle said:
Also, counting chickens before hatched never a good idea, remember what ITV Digital did for us?

Indeed, the collapse of ITV Digital is often overlooked when discussing the fall clubs such as ourselves have suffered.

In fact a lot of what you hear from Wasps is very reminiscent of Richardson when the whole Arena 2000 project was being thrust upon us. Of course he never considered the fact we might drop out of the top division. Wonder if Wasps have? When its been mentioned in the past we've seen comments like 'it won't happen', isn't that exactly the attitude that tripped us up? Same with qualifying for Europe, we keep hearing how valuable these top Europeans games are, what happens if there aren't any?

Deleted member 5849 · Apr 14, 2015

Captain Dart said:
'penal' rental charges

/sniggers

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Apr 14, 2015

torchomatic said:
How much will the Council lose in interest if Wasps pay it off early?

I'm guessing 20 years worth, could you imagine the false moral outrage if SISU had tried to pull this one off.

chiefdave · Apr 14, 2015

CCFC said:
I'm guessing 20 years worth, could you imagine the false moral outrage if SISU had tried to pull this one off.

Probably similar to when SISU tried to rip off a childrens charity by offering less than the formula price

And before any of the usual suspects decide to examine every post I've ever made I'll happily tell you now I was one of those having a go at SISU.

lordsummerisle · Apr 14, 2015

CCFC said:
I'm guessing 20 years worth, could you imagine the false moral outrage if SISU had tried to pull this one off.

I'm still wondering if the Charities Commisssion have collared PWKH yet for selling their share for less than half what they paid for it?

That was all the rage when it looked like Sisu wanted to pay around £5million for the share.

"Fiduciary responsibilty" was MMM's particular buzz-phrase then from what i recall.

chiefdave · Apr 14, 2015

Everyone's favourite award winning journalist is also reporting the Wasps refinancing story. Reid's sources say that Wasps are planning to raise the money, in part, by asking fans to lend it to them on the promise they will be able to pay it back at some point! Bet Tim is gutted he didn't think of that first, could have made SISU a few quid.

http://coventryobserver.co.uk/2015/...ns-and-pay-back-council-taxpayers-131528.html

Nick · Apr 14, 2015

If that's true, sounds a bit desperate?

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Apr 14, 2015

Imagine a few on here will be at the front of the queue to give Wasps there money.

I though Wasps were loaded the other day, 50% increase or whatever it was?

Probably bull from Reid but still a funny idea, again could you imagine the reaction if SISU suggested such a thing

chiefdave · Apr 14, 2015

Nick said:
If that's true, sounds a bit desperate?

Also makes you wonder why they would go to those lengths to repay a loan when there's no pressure to pay it? Can only think they're either worried about the outcome of the JR for some reason or worried about being able to meet payments as I can't imagine fans taking steps to recover the money in the same way the council eventually might.

Grendel · Apr 14, 2015

CCFC said:
Imagine a few on here will be at the front of the queue to give Wasps there money.

I though Wasps were loaded the other day, 50% increase or whatever it was?

Probably bull from Reid but still a funny idea, again could you imagine the reaction if SISU suggested such a thing

Italias gone to the bank to remortgage his house

Nick · Apr 14, 2015

Grendel said:
Italias gone to the bank to remortgage his house

Do you mean pay his mortgage off early?

tisza · Apr 14, 2015

CCFC said:
So your argument is that the Ricoh is better than sixfields, congratulations of course it is better than sixfields but it still isn't a deal which matches our ambitions.

No. My question was is the current deal reasonable for where we are now and what we are getting from the deal?

As to the rest I don't think it's Wasps/ACL's responsibility to set us up for challenging in League 1 or even playing in the Championship. That lies firmly with the owners and the management.

Hiding behind the rights and wrongs of various rental deals doesn't excuse many of the other shortcomings of CCFC management since the first Ricoh move.

stupot07 · Apr 14, 2015

martcov said:
who is not bothered? Some have been hoping that we start negotiating with Wasps as a new stadium seems unlikely. This new move, if it happens, will shut out any hope of a good deal with Wasps. I would say that we are all bothered, but some had been hoping for a quick deal with Wasps to be ahead of something like this. They/we were called Wasps fans. But, it hasn't happened yet...... We were told by some that the Ricoh was worthless and a white elephant and by others that it was doing great without city. Then it wasn't a white elephant and we should have it and others now say it wasn't doing as well as stated without city. Now it is great and the debt will be paid off.... Who knows what the next move is.... ?

Bit defensive Mart. Think it was more the back slapping of wasps and the deal, and what a great move it is for the city, rather than saying we should sign a long term deal that has led to people being called Wasps Fans.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

Nick · Apr 14, 2015

Another article from the cet about it...

stupot07 · Apr 14, 2015

tisza said:
No. My question was is the current deal reasonable for where we are now and what we are getting from the deal?

As to the rest I don't think it's Wasps/ACL's responsibility to set us up for challenging in League 1 or even playing in the Championship. That lies firmly with the owners and the management.

Hiding behind the rights and wrongs of various rental deals doesn't excuse many of the other shortcomings of CCFC management since the first Ricoh move.

Moaning about wasps and the ricoh deal = absolving our owners of blame.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Apr 14, 2015

tisza said:
No. My question was is the current deal reasonable for where we are now and what we are getting from the deal?

As to the rest I don't think it's Wasps/ACL's responsibility to set us up for challenging in League 1 or even playing in the Championship. That lies firmly with the owners and the management.

Hiding behind the rights and wrongs of various rental deals doesn't excuse many of the other shortcomings of CCFC management since the first Ricoh move.

Never said CCFC was Wasps or ACL responsibility which is why I'm so angry our owners didnt buy it as soon as they arrived and am now also extremely disappointed and angry that the council decided to sell ACL to wasps

You're right it is our responsibly so why does everyone poo poo the new stadium (dont mean the credibility but the idea of it) and say we should go beg Wasps for handouts and scraps instead?

tisza · Apr 14, 2015

CCFC said:
Never said CCFC was Wasps or ACL responsibility which is why I'm so angry our owners didnt buy it as soon as they arrived and am now also extremely disappointed and angry that the council decided to sell ACL to wasps

You're right it is our responsibly so why does everyone poo poo the new stadium (dont mean the credibility but the idea of it) and say we should go beg Wasps for handouts and scraps instead?

I don't see any deal to be had with Wasps that significantly improves our income whilst at the same time earning Wasps enough money to justify changing the current deal.

I'm pretty much for a new stadium dependent on two criteria.
1. Location
2. A convincing explanation that CCFC (not any new company SISU company) will be significantly better off.

Financing of a new stadium and how much of the cost would be passed onto the club through rent are key issues.
Let's not kid ourselves that the club would have control of new stadium income 365 days. Even the plan for the Ricoh seemed to rely on bringing in 3rd party management (AEG). Fisher has always referred to it as "access" to further income streams not control of.

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Apr 14, 2015

tisza said:
I don't see any deal to be had with Wasps that significantly improves our income whilst at the same time earning Wasps enough money to justify changing the current deal.

I'm pretty much for a new stadium dependent on two criteria.
1. Location
2. A convincing explanation that CCFC (not any new company SISU company) will be significantly better off.

Financing of a new stadium and how much of the cost would be passed onto the club through rent are key issues.
Let's not kid ourselves that the club would have control of new stadium income 365 days. Even the plan for the Ricoh seemed to rely on bringing in 3rd party management (AEG). Fisher has always referred to it as "access" to further income streams not control of.

Ok, think we are on the same page

torchomatic · Apr 14, 2015

Nick said:
Another article from the cet about it...

And from Les R:

INDEBTED rugby club Wasps want to raise up to £30million including in loans from ordinary fans - partly to pay back a taxpayer loan from Coventry City Council, the Observer understands.
Our council sources say councillors have been briefed by senior council officers on Wasps' latest proposals to raise loans from a mixture of institutional investors, and fans - through a 'retail bond' scheme.
The 'retail bond' scheme would invite ordinary people, fans and possibly local companies to invest money as an "I owe you", with the expectation it would be returned by Wasps at some point in future.
It follows unconfirmed speculation for months that Wasps have been trying to raise similar monies from traditional lenders in the finance markets, partly to enable them to re-finance the loan and pay off the council in full.
Hotel Chocolate is among companies to have issued a 'retail bond' scheme. As a return on punters' investment, they issued free chocolate as a type of interest payment.
It is understood a third part of Wasps' plan is to raise money from the naming rights in the Ricoh Arena from a sponsor, who would pay potentially millions of pounds for the stadium to be re-named using their company name.
There is speculation that Jaguar Land Rover could be interested in the naming rights, which it is understood are due within the next two years.
Council sources say income from the naming rights could help pay off the £13.4million loan owed to the council since a secret deal in October last year. That deal saw indebted London Wasps Holdings Limited buy the Ricoh company Arena Coventry Limited on a massive 250-year lease for £5.5million - plus the loan - from previous ACL joint owners, the council and Alan Edward Higgs Charity.
Council sources say it is hoped the council loan could be paid back in full within months - rather than the planned 20 years - when Wasps intend to issue a prospectus for the retail bond scheme.
The prospectus would claim business has significantly increased since their Ricoh move. Wasps maintain their turnover is increasing - albeit from a low base - since their switch from Adams Park in High Wycombe. Their Ricoh attendances have been bolstered by free, cheap and 'buy one, get one free' ticket offers.
It is not known if Wasps might seek to borrow to pay off the council loan against the future income they expect from the naming rights next year.
We revealed the latest 2013/4 accounts for London Wasps Holdings Limited - owners of stadium operating company Arena Coventry Limited - show £22million debt, including loans which have been borrowed against future rugby Premiership income.
The last ACL accounts, for 2013/4, recorded £400,000 losses. The Coventry Observer has exposed inaccurate public claims by council leader Ann Lucas about ACL's finances. We have also highlighted how the council's Labour leaders had repeatedly stated they would only expose city taxpayers to risk from loans in viable and sustainable companies.
News of the possibility of the council loan being paid back in full comes three weeks before council and general elections in which Labour insiders fear some political fall-out from the secret deal, which both Labour and Conservative councillors agreed in private.
While Coventry City fans are divided over the entire saga, many on social media have expressed fury with the council for selling the Sky Blues' Ricoh home - which always depended on Sky Blues' income to be viable - to an out-of-town rugby club.
Coventry City's future is uncertain. Its current owners say the club cannot continue as tenants of Wasps at the Ricoh and want to build a new stadium to maximise commercial income. That would see the club playing nearby but outside their traditional domicile home city.
Council sources also say the 'retail scheme' could enable ordinary punters to place their bonds in ISAs to enable them to get tax breaks.
Sky Blues' owners Sisu have an appeal outstanding against their failed attempt at last year's judical review to claim the original council loan to ACL in January 2013 was an unlawful use of taxpayers' money.
Council sources claim if the loan is paid off it would bolster the council's ongoing argument that the loan was made at a commercial rate, and was not 'state aid'. The council still owns the Ricoh freehold.
Twenty-five high-profile Coventry City fans and professionals including academics, business people, lawyers, accountants and writers have called for a wide-ranging independent review into the Wasps deal, false council claims, use of taxpayers' money and other aspects of council conduct.
A response is awaited from communities secretary Eric Pickles, now held up until after the election. Councillors have said the council's independent auditor will scrutinise the deal later this year as part of an annual inspection of council accounts - which opponents say would be too limited.

Read more: Indebted Wasps may seek fans' loans and pay back council taxpayers | Coventry Observer

bigfatronssba · Apr 14, 2015

CCFC said:
The old whilst in league 1 argument, so you have no ambition to get out of league 1 and sustain a higher level of football ever?

The current deal has two more years left to run. Do you think we will get out of league 1 within two years?

bigfatronssba · Apr 14, 2015

stupot07 said:
As OSB says we have a 2 + 2 year deal, and it's unclear whether those same assurances for the additional 2 years will still stand after CCC are out of the picture.

Also what happens in 3 years time?

Also, we have every right to feel bitter about the wasps deal, I find it odd that some aren't bothered. Bizarre really,

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

You raise two points there, neither have anything to do with what I said.

chiefdave · Apr 14, 2015

bigfatronssba said:
The current deal has two more years left to run. Do you think we will get out of league 1 within two years?

Personally I'm hoping we get out of League 1 next season (and not by getting relegated!). Of course its then the sustain part that's the problem.

oldskyblue58 · Apr 14, 2015

Nick said:
Another article from the cet about it...

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/wasps-rfc-early-loan-repayment-9040895

Not sure what they plan does say business is booming, depends on the starting position really doesn't it? I think it says they are confident enough to seek better sources of finance but until we know more you could also see it as they cant afford the current deal.

The hearing on 7th July is not the appeal against judgement it is a hearing to seek permission to appeal to a higher court

Can the money from the repaid loan be used to prop up current services? Doesn't it depend on the "pot" it was taken from in the first place?

Any budget planning for 20 years can only be outline at best and would have to factor in potential for change in circumstances. In this case it would factor in alternative uses for the money which to be fair the article does point to. The income effect is a loss of under £1m revenue out of an annual budget that was 476m in 2013/14 or a 0.21% variation

RBC says the meeting 11/03/15 with TF etc was to discuss the planning application process it was not it seems about any specific sites

As the main remedy under the JR is to order the repayment of a loan if it was illegal then it would seem that remedy would be null and void. For SISU to claim compensation from CCC they will I would guess need to prove a contractual obligation existed between the club/SIUS/ARVO/SBS&L/Otium and CCC/wasps when the deals were done - its difficult to see that there was from what we know

SISU seem very quiet of late ....... in the past it has signalled that they have something going on in the back ground:thinking about:

Any way match tonight ...... think we will be all but safe with a 2 nil win maybe need one more draw after that

bigfatronssba · Apr 14, 2015

chiefdave said:
Personally I'm hoping we get out of League 1 next season (and not by getting relegated!). Of course its then the sustain part that's the problem.

So what your saying there is until a new stadium is built we have no chance of being sustainable in the Championship.

Now as a new stadium is at best years off, wouldn't we be better doing what some of us have said all along, and enter in negotiations with Wasps to get a deal at the Ricoh that is sustainable?

Today's news is exactly why we should have been having talks with Wasps months ago.

Deleted member 5849 · Apr 14, 2015

tisza said:
I'm pretty much for a new stadium dependent on two criteria.
1. Location
2. A convincing explanation that CCFC (not any new company SISU company) will be significantly better off.

I'd be all with you, as long as 'better off' is wide enough to include culturally and socially, as well as financially...

italiahorse · Apr 14, 2015

Nick said:
Do you mean pay his mortgage off early?

Payed it off when I retired on my Jaguar package 10 years ago.
Not much interest from the bank so might look out for the deal.

Nick · Apr 14, 2015

italiahorse said:
Payed it off when I retired on my Jaguar package 10 years ago.
Not much interest from the bank so might look out for the deal.

Land is where it's at!

italiahorse · Apr 14, 2015

bigfatronssba said:
So what your saying there is until a new stadium is built we have no chance of being sustainable in the Championship.

Now as a new stadium is at best years off, wouldn't we be better doing what some of us have said all along, and enter in negotiations with Wasps to get a deal at the Ricoh that is sustainable?

Today's news is exactly why we should have been having talks with Wasps months ago.

I keep saying this but while Sisu, and these victims, keep bleating it can't be done, it will never happen.
Sisu have made a statement and the 3 musketeers are fighting their battles for them by producing graphs and arguing the case.
Sisu are just sitting back, saying absolutely nothing and let them take the flack. I bet they smile at their gullibility. ointlaugh:
I reckon I could make the £5M a year with a bit of application to put them on par with other similar Championship teams.

Just keep winning, get up the league and see where it takes us.

italiahorse · Apr 14, 2015

Nick said:
Land is where it's at!

Already got a load thanks.

Nick · Apr 14, 2015

italiahorse said:
I keep saying this but while Sisu, and these victims, keep bleating it can't be done, it will never happen.
Sisu have made a statement and the 3 musketeers are fighting their battles for them by producing graphs and arguing the case.
Sisu are just sitting back, saying absolutely nothing and let them take the flack. I bet they smile at their gullibility.
ointlaugh:
I reckon I could make the £5M a year with a bit of application to put them on par with other similar Championship teams.

Just keep winning, get up the league and see where it takes us.

I don't think somebody posting a graph is defending them is it? Surely it's just stating facts?

Could be worse, they could be fighting wasps battles.

ccfcway · Apr 14, 2015

am i too cynical to suggest that it was always a straight race between if SISU could win this case at court and get an order for the loan to be repaid, or if CCC could get the loan paid off before any case which ordered it to be repaid.

Those hoping for WASPs demise (13 Viewers)

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