tim speaks.....bullshit as usual (2 Viewers)

[chiefdave]

It's defamation not deformation but don't worry the Guardian newspaper made the same mistake in an article about that subject, so it's an easy mistake to make apparently. Yes they could easily take him to court however when he's made similar inaccuracies in the past they've not done so. PWKH usually appears on here and says that Uncle Tim is talking balls (again). I've only skimmed it but there are certainly some things that would concern me from a defamation point of view if Uncle Tim can't back these statements up with evidence/facts.

that's the point really, we get Tim saying one thing then PWKH (what's happened to him BTW, not heard anything from him in a while) comes on here and says something different, neither side really give us any proof to back up what they're saying and I guess we won't find out unless it all has to come out in court. If I was running ACL I wouldn't be letting Tim keep running to the papers saying all this if he's lying, I'd be doing something about it.

my feeling is the truth lies somewhere in the middle, possibly more in favour of ACL but I think they are far from blameless in this.

 

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[Noggin]

Is it much better to have 10,000 watch city in a half empty 32000 seat stadium, that we will never own and costs £1.2 m to rent?

I guess you have eyes to see!

imp:

because of the fact it would avoid the damage due to 3-5 years away actually it is better yes significantly, but of course they didn't need to do this because what is 100 times better though would have been staying with a rent of 400k

 

[Godiva]

4. I'm afraid I can't share your faith in them. There doesn't seem to have been a particularly close relationship between statements and actions in the last couple of years. I'm not sure why this should suddenly change.

5. New stadia do usually get an attendance bounce, but we may be in League 2 (or worse) by then.

I just want to reply to 4 and 5:

4: While the rent row has been going on I agree there has been little correlation between what's been said and what has happened. But as I have during all this mess been very critical against ACL I have a biased view and think the actions of ccc and ACL have countered much of what sisu have wanted to do. In that case the missing correlation could be others making.

5: ... or we could be in the championship )
Ridiculous? Well, if sisu want to 'buy back' some of the fans they could strengthen the team ahead of next season. We were not too far off the top 6 before we were deducted 10 points, and that was including a disasterous start. So stranger things has happened. (I don't actually belive we will get promoted anytime soon though).

 

[Noggin]

I just want to reply to 4 and 5:

4: While the rent row has been going on I agree there has been little correlation between what's been said and what has happened. But as I have during all this mess been very critical against ACL I have a biased view and think the actions of ccc and ACL have countered much of what sisu have wanted to do. In that case the missing correlation could be others making.

5: ... or we could be in the championship )
Ridiculous? Well, if sisu want to 'buy back' some of the fans they could strengthen the team ahead of next season. We were not too far off the top 6 before we were deducted 10 points, and that was including a disasterous start. So stranger things has happened. (I don't actually belive we will get promoted anytime soon though).

ffp! not to mention if there plan was to strengthen and try for promotion they would be planning a 20k stadium at least.

 

[SonofErnie]

ffp! not to mention if there plan was to strengthen and try for promotion they would be planning a 20k stadium at least.

I think that's the point of the modular design, though I think we're preempting things, given there are other barriers to overcome before then.

 

[Ddccfc]

Everyone is an expert when it comes to interpreting things to suit their own agendas.

The truth is nobody knows all the facts.

You are not experts.

Trust the system. Justice will prevail.

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

Everyone is an expert when it comes to interpreting things to suit their own agendas.

The truth is nobody knows all the facts.

You are not experts.

Trust the system. Justice will prevail.

Thats what I'm afraid of

 

[Godiva]

ffp! not to mention if there plan was to strengthen and try for promotion they would be planning a 20k stadium at least.

I know about FFP
But there are players earning more than their performance justify!

We haven't really been told what capacity they are planning, only that they are looking to use the construction principle from Rotherham. That is not the same as saying it will only have a capacity of 12k, but that it will be modular and easily upgradeable. Even in the championship we struggled to get a crowd of 20k - so 14k-16k would probably do.

 

[Noggin]

I think that's the point of the modular design, though I think we're preempting things, given there are other barriers to overcome before then.

It costs significantly more to build a 12k seater stadium and then extend it to 20k+ than it costs to build the 20k+ stadium in the first place however well the modular design works. So if they felt there was a chance of us being in the championship (as godiva suggests it's possible they are thinking) they should be planning a stadium that could accommodate that from the start.

Of course we won't be in the championship, we won't even be in league one unless it turns out our team of kids are amazing because crowds of about 3k + ffp = relegation almost guaranteed over 3-5 years imo, especially at a club in turmoil, with a loser mentality, fans that loath the owners, overpaid players tied into contract and a manager that hasn't been able to impress yet at least.

If SISU are still owners in a couple of months time the club as we know it will have been terminally wounded and we'll just have to watch it slowly die over the next few years.

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

how is your job going at the council?

Funny how OSB joined this site same time as you apr2010 :thinking about:
Haven't heard from Inside Track lately or that other one cant remember who had inside info

 

[Noggin]

I know about FFP
But there are players earning more than their performance justify!

We haven't really been told what capacity they are planning, only that they are looking to use the construction principle from Rotherham. That is not the same as saying it will only have a capacity of 12k, but that it will be modular and easily upgradeable. Even in the championship we struggled to get a crowd of 20k - so 14k-16k would probably do.

with ffp we are going to have a wages budget similar to a team like Bury. because we will have about 3k fans average imo

While you say we have players earning more than their performances justify (and you are right) thats going to hurt us more, anyone doing this who is tied to contract when our revenues drop will be causeing massivly more damage than they are now. If your playing budget is 4 mill and you have someone earning 5k a week sitting in the treatment room it's a pain, if your playing budget is 1 mill then that player is a quarter of your budget and you are screwed.

 

[RoboCCFC90]

It's amazing the SISU bound hatred on this forum right now, yes they're to blame for what's happening at the Club, but so is the Council and ACL and if you can't see that then the hatred has consumed you..

 

[lordsummerisle]

It's amazing the SISU bound hatred on this forum right now, yes they're to blame for what's happening at the Club, but so is the Council and ACL and if you can't see that then the hatred has consumed you..

No room for rational debate on here, God knows never wanted Sisu here in the first place, but at least tried to argue rationally against them.

SISU=EVIL, ACL=GOOD

No room for any grey areas there.

 

[Godiva]

It costs significantly more to build a 12k seater stadium and then extend it to 20k+ than it costs to build the 20k+ stadium in the first place however well the modular design works. So if they felt there was a chance of us being in the championship (as godiva suggests it's possible they are thinking) they should be planning a stadium that could accommodate that from the start.

Of course we won't be in the championship, we won't even be in league one unless it turns out our team of kids are amazing because crowds of about 3k + ffp = relegation almost guaranteed over 3-5 years imo, especially at a club in turmoil, with a loser mentality, fans that loath the owners, overpaid players tied into contract and a manager that hasn't been able to impress yet at least.

If SISU are still owners in a couple of months time the club as we know it will have been terminally wounded and we'll just have to watch it slowly die over the next few years.

Thay could build a 14k stadium from start. That should suffice even in the unlikely event that we got promoted.

Next season's wage cap won't be based on 3k crowds ... that would be the season after (assuming you're right the crowd will drop that low). Yet there are ways to counter lost incrome from lower crowds - like better sponsor deals (e.g. sisu capital).

 

[James Smith]

Point 9

This deal was documented, signed by all parties and then reneged on by the council. The council made the problem even worse by then using public funds, something that is now subject to the judicial review proceedings

Okay so just show us the signed document Tim, as that would prove the council are liars as you claim. No need to talk about handshakes that have been misinterpreted or who said what to whom.

Just show us the document, you can can't you?

 

[covcity4life]

No, he has every right to be here.

you are the nicest guy in the world.:claping hands:

 

[Manchester_sky_blue]

For all made Tim's bullshit, I do believe him on one point. I do believe that the council/ACL were intent on removing SISU from the club. Whether they were right to do that or not is another question but it does make you wonder if we wouldn't be better off with SISU buying out the debt and taking a 50% stake in ACL in return. Yes we would still be stuck with shitty owners but it would surely be better than the current situation.

 

[covcity4life]

Funny how OSB joined this site same time as you apr2010 :thinking about:
Haven't heard from Inside Track lately or that other one cant remember who had inside info

OSB is my second account i admit it. i use it when i want to go on the wum.

you got me

 

[DazzleTommyDazzle]

I just want to reply to 4 and 5:

4: While the rent row has been going on I agree there has been little correlation between what's been said and what has happened. But as I have during all this mess been very critical against ACL I have a biased view and think the actions of ccc and ACL have countered much of what sisu have wanted to do. In that case the missing correlation could be others making.

5: ... or we could be in the championship )
Ridiculous? Well, if sisu want to 'buy back' some of the fans they could strengthen the team ahead of next season. We were not too far off the top 6 before we were deducted 10 points, and that was including a disasterous start. So stranger things has happened. (I don't actually belive we will get promoted anytime soon though).

I'm sure that there have been things on both sides that have contributed to the problems - however on the basis of what I've seen, I consider that the balance of "the blame" lies with SISU.

It's not just the ACL issue either. We were "debt free" as the loans were converted into equity, SISU had signed off a three year funding plan - but within a year Tim was saying we might have to be liquidated etc

Re point 5 - I guess that anything is possible. However, we'd have to be out of embargo before they could do any strengthening. I also don't see a team playing in front of small (I expect) crowds at Walsall, being the most attractive prospect for new players (assuming we're chasing ones that have a choice). I could go on, but as you say, you don't really believe that either

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

OSB is my second account i admit it. i use it when i want to go on the wum.

you got me

That wasn't what I was suggesting

 

[Godiva]

Point 9


Okay so just show us the signed document Tim, as that would prove the council are liars as you claim. No need to talk about handshakes that have been misinterpreted or who said what to whom.

Just show us the document, you can can't you?

Or someone could ask Mutton! Or PWKH.

 

[Noggin]

Thay could build a 14k stadium from start. That should suffice even in the unlikely event that we got promoted.

Next season's wage cap won't be based on 3k crowds ... that would be the season after (assuming you're right the crowd will drop that low). Yet there are ways to counter lost incrome from lower crowds - like better sponsor deals (e.g. sisu capital).

sure and I think we will survive next year because of that but the 2 (more likely 4) years after that we have little to no chance of not being relegated.

14k isn't enough in the championship, we got over 20k at pretty much every midlands derby game and in the championship you have much better chances of playing premiership teams in the 2 cups. They could easily be throwing away 100k for each big game.

There certainly are ways to cheat ffp but that means even more wasted money from sisu and further shows their talk about how they had to have food and beverage due to ffp was rubbish. If sisu are our shirt sponsors we will have even less money coming in. They would have to inject millions more per season than they have been if they wanted us to try for the championship with every game away and there is no way in the world they would do this.

 

[davebart]

Is it much better to have 10,000 watch city in a half empty 32000 seat stadium, that we will never own and costs £1.2 m to rent?

I guess you have eyes to see!

imp:

The more I see of your posts the more I think you are actually Tim Fisher.

CCFC designed the Ricoh stadium when they had AMBITIONS to be a premier league club. You build a £12m stadium for league 1/2 ambition at best. Telford are currently in BSN with a similar ground they just built.

 

[Danceswithhorses]

sure and I think we will survive next year because of that but the 2 (more likely 4) years after that we have little to no chance of not being relegated.

Good point Noggin....i don't think people fully realise the potential catastrophic consequences that CCFC will face, not this coming season, but the one after and in the future, with our revenue destroyed

 

[skyblueinBaku]

Good point Noggin....i don't think people fully realise the potential catastrophic consequences that CCFC will face, not this coming season, but the one after and in the future, with our revenue destroyed

I'm sure that a lot of people on here fully realise the potential consequences, Dances. Pity TF doesn't.

 

[James Smith]

Or someone could ask Mutton! Or PWKH.

They could but then they didn't make the claim and it would be up to Tim in a court of law to prove it existed, not ACL or the Council.

 

[Danceswithhorses]

I'm sure that a lot of people on here fully realise the potential consequences, Dances. Pity TF doesn't.

Judging by some of the discussions i have and also follow on here, there seems to be a sizeable minority on here who are almost happy that SISU are sticking their two fingers up at ACL, CCC and the Higgs Charity, with little or no thought as to how it will decimate our revenue, which in turn will massively cut our wage budget.

 

[SonofErnie]

I think there are antics on both sides of the fence. The route both SISU and ACL are pursuing is what's known as MAD - "Mutually Assured Destruction". There are some interesting points made on the attached forum from a site completely unrelated to football about the viability of ACL without the football club.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1553876&page=34

 

[torchomatic]

I would like to hear PWKH's take on some of the points Fisher made. Is there a document that proves there was an agreement before the CCC bail-out? Did ACL mark up[ utilities by up to 300%?

 

[James Smith]

I would like to hear PWKH's take on some of the points Fisher made. Is there a document that proves there was an agreement before the CCC bail-out? Did ACL mark up[ utilities by up to 300%?

Well first time in a while SISU/Holdings have said something that lawyers haven't immediately retracted and reissued with changes.

 

[bigfatronssba]

I would like to hear PWKH's take on some of the points Fisher made. Is there a document that proves there was an agreement before the CCC bail-out? Did ACL mark up[ utilities by up to 300%?

Cwr should have both sides on for a live debate.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Cwr should have both sides on for a live debate.

Hosted at the Ricoh?

 

[PWKH]

I have read Fisher's statements in the CT. Untangling the truth from the part truths and the outright lies would take an age. What I will say is that there was no agreement for Sisu/Seppala/CCFC to buy the Higgs shares. This knocks out quite a lot of what Fisher is claiming. Everything he says about "deals" has this lie as a crucial part of the argument he is putting.

He talks about "the highest rent" this is again a Fisherism. He rolls up rent and repayment of costs all into one sum and then calls it "rent". When you compare one thing with another you must compare like with like. If you strip away the licence fee, which covers the costs, the rent is just a midpoint rent according to the information provided to us by the Football League. All the rent figures quoted by Fisher are purely rent: whenever he talks about the Club "rent" he includes the overheads to exaggerate the number to make it look high. He might just as well add the player wages or the cost of Ryton as well because once you depart from the truth you can say any old thing.

These two points, I believe, expose the fundemental lack of truth in what Fisher says. It was all meant to be about the rent. It never was, and it still isn't.

 

[bigfatronssba]

I have read Fisher's statements in the CT. Untangling the truth from the part truths and the outright lies would take an age. What I will say is that there was no agreement for Sisu/Seppala/CCFC to buy the Higgs shares. This knocks out quite a lot of what Fisher is claiming. Everything he says about "deals" has this lie as a crucial part of the argument he is putting.

He talks about "the highest rent" this is again a Fisherism. He rolls up rent and repayment of costs all into one sum and then calls it "rent". When you compare one thing with another you must compare like with like. If you strip away the licence fee, which covers the costs, the rent is just a midpoint rent according to the information provided to us by the Football League. All the rent figures quoted by Fisher are purely rent: whenever he talks about the Club "rent" he includes the overheads to exaggerate the number to make it look high. He might just as well add the player wages or the cost of Ryton as well because once you depart from the truth you can say any old thing.

These two points, I believe, expose the fundemental lack of truth in what Fisher says. It was all meant to be about the rent. It never was, and it still isn't.

Do you believe he intends to go through with this suicidal plan or do you think it is just to try and destabilise Acl?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

What I will say is that there was no agreement for Sisu/Seppala/CCFC to buy the Higgs shares.

Can you tell me how this reconciles with this?

There was indeed an agreed heads of terms between Sisu and the Charity signed in June of last year.