Time for a trust statement (4 Viewers)

[oldfiver]

Curiosity has the better of me. What would SISU have to disclose in a judicial review of a transaction that didn't involve them?

It was your post !!-
That's true. We haven't seen anything of what SISU were planning behind the scenes. Internal memo's, minutes from meetings, that sort of thing. SISU's motivation behind all their decision's will never come out. Good point NW.

 

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[Captain Dart]

I didn't think there was room for additional pitches at Higgs but having a dig around I found a planning application from before the centre was there. It was actually made by the football club to have all their training facilities (i.e.: getting rid of Ryton) located there and included 9 outdoor pitches as well as the indoor pitch, plus accommodation! The CCC planning portal doesn't seem to be working properly at the moment so I can't view the original Higgs plans to see how the pitch locations match up and what would need to be done to add more pitches there. Did notice that on the CCFC plans it involved work to avoid flooding, that might only have been needed if they were fitting as many pitches as possible on there.

Problem is if Anderson comes out and says we need abc nobody will believe him and then we'll have an article in the paper the next day from Higgs, CSF or Wasps saying what we actually need is xyz.
Get someone not directly involved to establish exactly what we need then question all sides on it and put a plan of action forward.
For example if it is possible to fit more pitches in then the club should offer to assist with that (along with Wasps) and in return pressure should be put on CCC to allow any planning application and Higgs to remove their restriction.
Same with the indoor centre. If the use of Wasps kicking barn will not meet academy requirements, which seems to be the case, then put pressure on CCC to locate any new pool elsewhere and again put pressure on Higgs to allow the club to sign a long term deal.
You would also have to get agreement from the club that if the Trust was to apply that pressure the club would commit to the centre and assisting towards any additional facilities required.

That is very interesting, particularly the historical planning application.

I may be over simplifying it but it seems to me that the Higgs Charity stumped up the money for a modified version of that original plan and have now decided that their investment should be withdrawn from the club due to a break down of good will.

Your idea that the Academy could still be accommodated on the site is good, it is also possible for the club to reacquire some or all of the Ryton land owned by the Connexion and build there, maybe including some housing to cover some of the costs, apart from a distinct lack of vision and imagination from those in charge at CCFC the major stumbling block in either of those schemes is that ARVO/SISU will not put any more money into the club. As I see it the only hope for the Academy is for SISU to withdraw litigation and negotiate with CCC/CSF/Higgs about the indoor facilities, but I don't think preserving the Academy Cat 2 status is top of their wish list.

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

That is very interesting, particularly the historical planning application.

I may be over simplifying it but it seems to me that the Higgs Charity stumped up the money for a modified version of that original plan and have now decided that their investment should be withdrawn from the club due to a break down of good will.

Your idea that the Academy could still be accommodated on the site is good, it is also possible for the club to reacquire some or all of the Ryton land owned by the Connexion and build there, maybe including some housing to cover some of the costs, apart from a distinct lack of vision and imagination from those in charge at CCFC the major stumbling block in either of those schemes is that ARVO/SISU will not put any more money into the club. As I see it the only hope for the Academy is for SISU to withdraw litigation and negotiate with CCC/CSF/Higgs about the indoor facilities, but I don't think preserving the Academy Cat 2 status is top of their wish list.

Agree though saving £600,000 might be.

 

[Captain Dart]

Agree though saving £600,000 might be.

Cash flow, cash flow..

 

[Nick]

Agree though saving £600,000 might be.

So CCFC want to close the academy?

 

[Calista]

The indoor pitch is unique enough that it has a chance in a fight against the swimming pool

The problem though Tony is that after Wasps have got permision for their kicking barn, the current indoor pitch won't be unique any more will it? It will be said that the "old" indoor pitch is expendable, and therefore can be replaced by a swimming pool. I agree that we need to concentrate 100% on fighting for the Academy, but sadly because of the way the developments have been lined up, I fear there won't be much mileage in opposing the planning applications.

I think we are going to have to try and cajole (and if necessary shame) all parties into making sure that CCFC comes out at the end of the process still having a thriving Academy. Personally, I'm not too hung up on how that's achieved, and if it ends up being somewhere else in the city that's OK. Do CCC, CSF and Wasps (and by extension their sponsors) really want to be complicit in ending the Academy? Grendel says yes, and the last few days suggest he might be right, but I still have hope and we need to concentrate 100% on forcing the right outcome. I think CCFC (SISU) are going to have to put something tangible in for once though.

 

[dongonzalos]

The problem though Tony is that after Wasps have got permision for their kicking barn, the current indoor pitch won't be unique any more will it? It will be said that the "old" indoor pitch is expendable, and therefore can be replaced by a swimming pool. I agree that we need to concentrate 100% on fighting for the Academy, but sadly because of the way the developments have been lined up, I fear there won't be much mileage in opposing the planning applications.

I think we are going to have to try and cajole (and if necessary shame) all parties into making sure that CCFC comes out at the end of the process still having a thriving Academy. Personally, I'm not too hung up on how that's achieved, and if it ends up being somewhere else in the city that's OK. Do CCC, CSF and Wasps (and by extension their sponsors) really want to be complicit in ending the Academy? Grendel says yes, and the last few days suggest he might be right, but I still have hope and we need to concentrate 100% on forcing the right outcome. I think CCFC (SISU) are going to have to put something tangible in for once though.

And your last line shows why we have to press both sides not just one

 

[Calista]

I didn't think there was room for additional pitches at Higgs but having a dig around I found a planning application from before the centre was there. It was actually made by the football club to have all their training facilities (i.e.: getting rid of Ryton) located there and included 9 outdoor pitches as well as the indoor pitch, plus accommodation! The CCC planning portal doesn't seem to be working properly at the moment so I can't view the original Higgs plans to see how the pitch locations match up and what would need to be done to add more pitches there. Did notice that on the CCFC plans it involved work to avoid flooding, that might only have been needed if they were fitting as many pitches as possible on there.

Problem is if Anderson comes out and says we need abc nobody will believe him and then we'll have an article in the paper the next day from Higgs, CSF or Wasps saying what we actually need is xyz.
Get someone not directly involved to establish exactly what we need then question all sides on it and put a plan of action forward.
For example if it is possible to fit more pitches in then the club should offer to assist with that (along with Wasps) and in return pressure should be put on CCC to allow any planning application and Higgs to remove their restriction.
Same with the indoor centre. If the use of Wasps kicking barn will not meet academy requirements, which seems to be the case, then put pressure on CCC to locate any new pool elsewhere and again put pressure on Higgs to allow the club to sign a long term deal.
You would also have to get agreement from the club that if the Trust was to apply that pressure the club would commit to the centre and assisting towards any additional facilities required.

Loads of constructive things there CD. I like the idea of CCFC of putting forward positive proposals and demonstrating a willingness to chip in to making Allard Way an incredible complex suitable for both clubs. Put the other parties on the spot. If in the face of that CCC, CSF & Wasps still tell us to sod off, there can be no doubt where we stand, and it will be publicly visible.

Up to now, all we’ve had from CCFC is an admirably emotional statement that we have changed our mind about leaving the site, and now we are “prepared” to move our entire training operation there at the expense of all the plans which CCC / CSF and Wasps have been working on!

 

[rupert_bear]

For any degree of success re the academy there has to be the will to have one !

 

[skybluetony176]

The problem though Tony is that after Wasps have got permision for their kicking barn, the current indoor pitch won't be unique any more will it? It will be said that the "old" indoor pitch is expendable, and therefore can be replaced by a swimming pool. I agree that we need to concentrate 100% on fighting for the Academy, but sadly because of the way the developments have been lined up, I fear there won't be much mileage in opposing the planning applications.

I think we are going to have to try and cajole (and if necessary shame) all parties into making sure that CCFC comes out at the end of the process still having a thriving Academy. Personally, I'm not too hung up on how that's achieved, and if it ends up being somewhere else in the city that's OK. Do CCC, CSF and Wasps (and by extension their sponsors) really want to be complicit in ending the Academy? Grendel says yes, and the last few days suggest he might be right, but I still have hope and we need to concentrate 100% on forcing the right outcome. I think CCFC (SISU) are going to have to put something tangible in for once though.

I assume that a kicking barn is what it says and is a tall building at least half the footprint of a full size pitch. If that's right it's something completely different. Meaning that the indoor pitch is still unique.

 

[Ian1779]

Is a kicking barn neccesary anyway?

Is the sky not a high enough ceiling?

 

[Nick]

I don't know too much about Rugby, but surely it is better to practise kicking outside where there is wind and stuff?

 

[stupot07]

I assume that a kicking barn is what it says and is a tall building at least half the footprint of a full size pitch. If that's right it's something completely different. Meaning that the indoor pitch is still unique.

Its not really though is it? Its an indoor 3G pitch, it will just have a higher roof and a rugby goal. I guarentee the kicking barn will be named as a reason the indoor pitches can go. Its all interlinked.

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[martcov]

True - rather we just went to JR2 now.

Any idea why we don't drop JR1 which has been pretty well dashed, and go on to JR2? Negotiations are already on hold and putting something damaging to Wasps to the court may force them to restart or make a settlement.

 

[James Smith]

Any idea why we don't drop JR1 which has been pretty well dashed, and go on to JR2? Negotiations are already on hold and putting something damaging to Wasps to the court may force them to restart or make a settlement.

Probably because they are convinced or have been convinced that they are correct on their interpretation of the law. I'd guess until they're told by the highest court going that they're wrong or right they're not going to give up JR1. I can imagine it's like a giant game of double or nothing to them. If they really wanted to bugger Wasps up they needed to have started JR2 before the bond issue.

 

[chiefdave]

The wasps development and the swimming pool are all interlinked, it would be niaive to think it isn't.

Was looking for something else but found this in the Telegraph

Wasps are in secret talks about redeveloping the Alan Higgs Centre into a permanent training facility for the rugby club – including building an Olympic-sized swimming pool.

 

[chiefdave]

That is very interesting, particularly the historical planning application

The plans were before it all became online but there's scans of all the paperwork including the plans:
http://planning.coventry.gov.uk/portal/servlets/ApplicationSearchServlet?PKID=3288

 

[chiefdave]

Does anyone know where the boundary of Higgs is? For some reason the original Higgs plans won't load on the CCC website.

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

So CCFC want to close the academy?

So CCFC want to close the academy?

dont know do they?

 

[The Reverend Skyblue]

Surely if the area can't take a pool and indoor pitch, can't they make the building two storey,the pool on the ground floor and the indoor pitch on the first floor, or visa-versa
If they really wanted to do this together the area available should easily manage.

 

[chiefdave]

Surely if the area can't take a pool and indoor pitch, can't they make the building two storey,the pool on the ground floor and the indoor pitch on the first floor, or visa-versa
If they really wanted to do this together the area available should easily manage.

Not a bad idea. Build up and put the pool on top of the existing facilities.

 

[Astute]

Not a bad idea. Build up and put the pool on top of the existing facilities.

Sounds good to me. And when Wasps are using everything below the pool just pull the plug and drown the fuckers. But try to wait until their best mates from CCC are visiting.

 

[Brylowes]

So CCFC want to close the academy?

They've done nothing in the past, and are certainly doing nothing now
that makes me think otherwise.
£600.000 per annum is a lot of money.

 

[stupot07]

So CCFC want to close the academy?

They've done nothing in the past, and are certainly doing nothing now
that makes me think otherwise.
£600.000 per annum is a lot of money.

What....other than continuing to pay for it, and applying and gaining cat 2 status merely 2 years ago

http://mobile.ccfc.co.uk//news/arti...med-academy-coventry-city-070414-1473669.aspx

You're right though, other than that, there's nothing to suggest that ccfc want to do anything but close the academy.....


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[Nick]

What....other than continuing to pay for it, and applying and gaining cat 2 status merely 2 years ago

http://mobile.ccfc.co.uk//news/arti...med-academy-coventry-city-070414-1473669.aspx

You're right though, other than that, there's nothing to suggest that ccfc want to do anything but close the academy.....


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Was a bit strange.

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Was a bit strange.

Is there anything normal in any of this?

 

[Skyblueweeman]

They've done nothing in the past, and are certainly doing nothing now
that makes me think otherwise.
£600.000 per annum is a lot of money.

And using it to develop the likes of Wilson and Maddison (£5.5m in 2 years) isn't a great use of time or money to the club??

 

[Brylowes]

What....other than continuing to pay for it, and applying and gaining cat 2 status merely 2 years ago

http://mobile.ccfc.co.uk//news/arti...med-academy-coventry-city-070414-1473669.aspx

You're right though, other than that, there's nothing to suggest that ccfc want to do anything but close the academy.....


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I'm talking about their history with us on the whole, a history of cost-cutting, putting
their needs before the club, saying one thing but doing another, etc.
When they left the Higgs last time ( of their own accord) they were never going back
only to go back "cap in hand" when informed they would lose Cat 2 status but more
importantly the funding.

They will have known any plans for the Higgs well in advance of recent announcements,
just don't think an academy and costs that go with it suits their current agenda,
By the time they eventually give up and fuck off , it'll be like raking over the remnants of
A big bonfire, nothing but ash and rubble.
What have they said or done that convinces you they are either,
A. Fighting tooth and nail to protect our position at the Higgs and retain our academy
their.
B. Pressing ahead with plans to move the academy to another site.

 

[Brylowes]

And using it to develop the likes of Wilson and Maddison (£5.5m in 2 years) isn't a great use of time or money to the club??

Of course it is an academy is the lifeblood of our club, to lose it would be a disaster,
it would also hasten our demise.
SISU have a history of making reactionary decisions but I honestly don't think this
is one of them.
They can cut funding now and save X amount, or they can keep the academy open in the
In the Hope of producing a gem or two to sell in 2 or 3 years time.
I honestly don't think they think they'll be here in 2 years time.

 

[Captain Dart]

I honestly don't think they think they'll be here in 2 years time.

I hope not, but I think the court cases will run on longer.

 

[Brylowes]

I hope not, but I think the court cases will run on longer.

Maybe the court cases will, just get the feeling this is a concentrated effort
to oust them, hopefully give them no option but to leave.

 

[Astute]

Maybe the court cases will, just get the feeling this is a concentrated effort
to oust them, hopefully give them no option but to leave.

Why would Wasps want to get rid of SISU unless they are after taking over our club?

They also know that SISU won't give up on the litigation easily. So to me it is so they have a reason (a very shit one) to not negotiate with SISU.

 

[Brylowes]

Why would Wasps want to get rid of SISU unless they are after taking over our club?

They also know that SISU won't give up on the litigation easily. So to me it is so they have a reason (a very shit one) to not negotiate with SISU.

I would of thought all parties concerned want rid of SISU, the reasons
being self evident.
Unbelievably it's the fans that seem to have a place in there heart for
these unscrupulous, lying bastards. Well oh here anyway.

 

[albatross]

And using it to develop the likes of Wilson and Maddison (£5.5m in 2 years) isn't a great use of time or money to the club??

It can be argued that neither of these was a product of a Cat 2 academy. By 2014 Wilson was in the first team and Maddison was 17 playing for the under 18s and under 20s and Presley was looking for him to push into the first team. Same for Bigi and the others. Cat 2 was only confirmed in April 2014 and now the FA want to reduce the number. Our Cat 2 investment can only really be measured from what happens going forward. Unless they have some real gems in the next
12 to18 months then the Cat 2 will be much less profitable than our cat 3 that punched above its weight.

I believe SISU don't want it in the sort term as it diverts much needed first team funds and it a pretty perverse situation when the main driver for the clubs existence (according to many posters) is so that the academy can sustain the first team. Rather than the first teams success driving supporting and funding the academy.

 

[Brylowes]

Astute, on another note how are you doing with your injury, didn't see
you post how you got on, hope all is well.