To Stay or Go (2 Viewers)

[stupot07]

Under normal circumstances yes.

This whole debacle has caused nothing but factions.

It's not a simple case of: "We need x amount of money"

It's the parties involved all trying to outsmart eachother, but all parties are about as bright as a blackboard.

i agree with that. and again, as i've said before my preference would be to keep short term contracts at the ricoh, sit out to see whether wasps fail whilst keeping the option of a new stadium open. Seems a lot of people have completely written the new stadium off, leaving us with one option - rent of wasps. there's no way we;re going to have a deal anywhere near as good as we've got now, rent will significantly increase, and we're likely to get less access to revenue as Wasps need all the money they can get to pay their debts and interest.

 

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[stupot07]

To be fair, it's a valid point, if we had of fluked promotion last season, then according to TF, we'd be screwed.

we'll its pretty much true, under sisu's break even plan we would likely have the lowest wage budget in the league and lead to relegation. not exactly going to attract bums on seats and shirts sales.

 

[ccfc92]

i agree with that. and again, as i've said before my preference would be to keep short term contracts at the ricoh, sit out to see whether wasps fail whilst keeping the option of a new stadium open. Seems a lot of people have completely written the new stadium off, leaving us with one option - rent of wasps. there's no way we;re going to have a deal anywhere near as good as we've got now, rent will significantly increase, and we're likely to get less access to revenue as Wasps need all the money they can get to pay their debts and interest.

If SISU came out with:

"Right, this is what we are going to do, this is how it's financed and this is the predicted rewards" then I imagine 95% would get behind the new stadium.

Instead its: "We will let you know details in 3 weeks" Then 2 years later saying: "We are having meetings with selected supporters to discuss the new stadium.

 

[stupot07]

If SISU came out with:

"Right, this is what we are going to do, this is how it's financed and this is the predicted rewards" then I imagine 95% would get behind the new stadium.

Instead its: "We will let you know details in 3 weeks" Then 2 years later saying: "We are having meetings with selected supporters to discuss the new stadium.

i completely agree.

 

[skybluetony176]

by
no one has said they don't want promotion. the only strange behaviour is yours by making conclusions.

a good manager might stave of relegation, but there's only so long you can avoid it when you have one of the lowest 3-4 turnovers in the league.

and the original reply prior to Astutes post was that building a new stadium isnt viable in this league, we need to be promoted. I was pointing out that championship turnover isnt enough to allow us to tread water in that league so there will be no money to build a stadium then, and that we're likely to never get back to the PL, we are destined to be at the ricoh as Wasps bitch for the next 40-50 years.

You're probably right, no one has said they don't want it. I've got that wrong.

But there's no denying that since Tim made that comment you can't mention promotion without someone on here repeating that the model doesn't work in the championship.

So what, we may have put a trophy in the cabinet and had a season to cheer about. Enjoy that and screw the model not working.

I doubt Bournemouth fans are all moping around because there stadium isn't apparently big enough for their model to work in the premier league?

 

[ccfc92]

we'll its pretty much true, under sisu's break even plan we would likely have the lowest wage budget in the league and lead to relegation. not exactly going to attract bums on seats and shirts sales.

I fail to see how higher attendances, higher sponsorhips etc will lead to this?

Unless the rent etc goes up when we get promoted?

Either way, I imagine it's more to support a new stadium and pass the blame onto CCC/ACL/Wasps/ whoever SISU want to blame now?

 

[chiefdave]

I don't get why people are so down on us going up even if it was just for one season? It's like TF said that the model doesn't work in the championship and everyone has gone we don't want the enjoyment of a successful season then.

I've not noticed people saying they don't want any success or a promotion season, what has given you that impression?

I do think we would have a long term problem. Every promotion followed by relegation, even if staved off for a few seasons, would see the fanbase shrink. Promotion, if we were a yoyo team, would become less of an achievement and in all likelihood each promotion would see less people return than walked away after the latest relegation.

 

[stupot07]

I fail to see how higher attendances, higher sponsorhips etc will lead to this?

Unless the rent etc goes up when we get promoted?

Either way, I imagine it's more to support a new stadium and pass the blame onto CCC/ACL/Wasps/ whoever SISU want to blame now?

rent will go up, as will attendances and sponsorship, but we know from our last couple of seasons in the championship our turnover is in the bottom 3-4 in the league (this info has been posted numerous times), most teams are making losses (FFP allows £13m pa losses), so it stands to reason that if we get promoted and keep to a breakeven model (60% wages to turnover) then we will likely have the lowest wage bill in the league.

 

[chiefdave]

I fail to see how higher attendances, higher sponsorhips etc will lead to this?

You only have to look to recent history to see this. We had one of the lowest revenues in the Championship and that was before the commercial side of the club went to shit so we had sponsorship, a fully stocked store at the Ricoh etc

Unless the rent etc goes up when we get promoted?

Nothing would surprise me. Of course we don't yet know what happens at the end of next season let alone the end of the additional 2 years. Personally I think there is a good chance our rent will be increasing. Even some of our own fans have suggested we sign up to a long term deal that has rent rising back to £1.2m!

 

[ccfc92]

rent will go up, as will attendances and sponsorship, but we know from our last couple of seasons in the championship our turnover is in the bottom 3-4 in the league (this info has been posted numerous times), most teams are making losses (FFP allows £13m pa losses), so it stands to reason that if we get promoted and keep to a breakeven model (60% wages to turnover) then we will likely have the lowest wage bill in the league.

But we will have an extra £800,000 PA compared to then, as we had a £1.2 million rent deal.

I know what you're saying, but IMO a new stadium will see us staying in league 1/ league 2. The revenue would not be any greater than being at the Ricoh, except with an extra £30 million debt.

Like I said, show me a business model, and I'll support it.

 

[ccfc92]

You only have to look to recent history to see this. We had one of the lowest revenues in the Championship and that was before the commercial side of the club went to shit so we had sponsorship, a fully stocked store at the Ricoh etc

Take off £800,000 per year rent.

Nothing would surprise me. Of course we don't yet know what happens at the end of next season let alone the end of the additional 2 years. Personally I think there is a good chance our rent will be increasing. Even some of our own fans have suggested we sign up to a long term deal that has rent rising back to £1.2m!

I haven't seen this. Seems you reply to questions you can just retort to.

 

[chiefdave]

But we will have an extra £800,000 PA compared to then, as we had a £1.2 million rent deal.

You're confusing revenue and profit & loss. We were losing £6m a year in the Championship so saving £800K on rent isn't really helping. Its the revenue thats key as that's vital to the FFP calculation.

I haven't seen this.

Haven't seen what?

 

[stupot07]

But we will have an extra £800,000 PA compared to then, as we had a £1.2 million rent deal.

I know what you're saying, but IMO a new stadium will see us staying in league 1/ league 2. The revenue would not be any greater than being at the Ricoh, except with an extra £30 million debt.

Like I said, show me a business model, and I'll support it.

having an extra £800k is great, but that negates that we lost around £6m, so if we're breaking even we will only be £5.2m worse off by saving money on rent.

That's the problem, as we've not seen a business plan we cannot say whether revenue will be greater than at the ricoh, given that we're only averaging 9k and getting around £70k in from f&bs and parking. rent is cheap but thats only guarenteed for 1 more (then possibly 2 more years).

 

[ccfc92]

having an extra £800k is great, but that negates that we lost around £6m, so if we're breaking even we will only be £5.2m worse off by saving money on rent.

That's the problem, as we've not seen a business plan we cannot say whether revenue will be greater than at the ricoh, given that we're only averaging 9k and getting around £70k in from f&bs and parking. rent is cheap but thats only guarenteed for 1 more (then possibly 2 more years).

our wage bill is a lot lower.

To be fair to SISU, bringing in crap players has probably resulted in our wage budget being around £1.5-2 million. Whereas in the championship it was probably closer to £3.5 million +

 

[chiefdave]

our wage bill is a lot lower.

So you think with a squad similar to the one we had last season we'd be competitive in the Championship?????

 

[stupot07]

our wage bill is a lot lower.

To be fair to SISU, bringing in crap players has probably resulted in our wage budget being around £1.5-2 million. Whereas in the championship it was probably closer to £3.5 million +

our player wage bill is reportedly £2.6m, which is not far off what i'd estimated. our total wage bill (all employees) in our last season in the championship was £9.91m, in our first season in league one £6.96m

 

[ccfc92]

So you think with a squad similar to the one we had last season we'd be competitive in the Championship?????

No?

What I am saying, is we have greatly reduced our costs since the championship. Even this coming season, we only have several first team players, so the "one out. one in" need not apply.


We are practically on a clean slate. Or so TF said so....?

 

[ccfc92]

our player wage bill is reportedly £2.6m, which is not far off what i'd estimated. our total wage bill (all employees) in our last season in the championship was £9.91m, in our first season in league one £6.96m

Okay...

So we build from there. We aren't tied into "we have to pay David Bell 8,000 a week", we use our money wisely, invest where needs be and be sensible....

 

[stupot07]

Okay...

So we build from there. We aren't tied into "we have to pay David Bell 8,000 a week", we use our money wisely, invest where needs be and be sensible....

And likely get relegated within get 2 seasons. Like CD says, we will struggle then fans will turn away then get relegated then the next league one promotion charge won't have the same impact on attendances.

It's depressing, but this is what renting the at the Ricoh with little access to revenues had limited us to. If only our knobhead owners had bought the Ricoh 7 year ago, instead of wasting money on transfers and wages for mediocre players


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[skybluetony176]

I've not noticed people saying they don't want any success or a promotion season, what has given you that impression?

I do think we would have a long term problem. Every promotion followed by relegation, even if staved off for a few seasons, would see the fanbase shrink. Promotion, if we were a yoyo team, would become less of an achievement and in all likelihood each promotion would see less people return than walked away after the latest relegation.

See post #110. I've added a correction.

 

[chiefdave]

Okay...

So we build from there. We aren't tied into "we have to pay David Bell 8,000 a week", we use our money wisely, invest where needs be and be sensible....

How many clubs in the Championship are running at break even? If there are any they all have 365 revenue access so are ahead of us. That's before you consider all the teams making a gamble for the PL by making a nice dent in the £13m a year losses FFP allows. How on earth do you expect us to be competitive?

 

[ccfc92]

And likely get relegated within get 2 seasons. Like CD says, we will struggle then fans will turn away then get relegated then the next league one promotion charge won't have the same impact on attendances.


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So moving further away from Coventry will help? Plus a £30 million debt to SISU?

How did the Sixfields promotion charge go by the way?

 

[ccfc92]

How many clubs in the Championship are running at break even? If there are any they all have 365 revenue access so are ahead of us. That's before you consider all the teams making a gamble for the PL by making a nice dent in the £13m a year losses FFP allows. How on earth do you expect us to be competitive?

So reducing crowds at SISU's stadium will help how?

 

[kg82]

It's the parties involved all trying to outsmart eachother, but all parties are about as bright as a blackboard.

Okay...

So we build from there. We aren't tied into "we have to pay David Bell 8,000 a week", we use our money wisely, invest where needs be and be sensible....

I'd agree, but I feel you're first quote may scupper that ideal scenario

 

[chiefdave]

So moving further away from Coventry will help? Plus a £30 million debt to SISU?

First things first we don't know how far away from Coventry it will be. People are talking like its confirmed to be miles away. There's just as much chance it will be somewhere like Ansty, Broadstreet or Warwick Uni literally a step over the boundary. Franky if it was a location like that and anyone refused to go as it wasn't in Coventry they're an idiot.

As for debt its simple, we don't know the funding model or any other details for that matter. I think people are assuming that anyone who says don't discount a new stadium as the best option moving forward is saying lets walk out tomorrow and go 20 miles away and take a massive loan to build a new stadium. Nobody is saying that, just that we shouldn't cross the option off the list until we see full details. If anything Fisher should be put under pressure to produce a full, funded plan for us to examine.

 

[chiefdave]

So reducing crowds at SISU's stadium will help how?

You don't know if the crowds will reduce. If the extra revenue allows us to get back into the PL I have a suspicion all the issues with the ground being too far away, no parking, no train station etc would suddenly disappear.

 

[stupot07]

So moving further away from Coventry will help? Plus a £30 million debt to SISU?

How did the Sixfields promotion charge go by the way?

What's £30m extra debt to sisu going to do? They've already spent £50m they'll never get back.

I agree with NW we should now be putting pressure on CCC to find a site within Coventry.

Sixfields is irrelevant.


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[ccfc92]

I'd agree, but I feel you're first quote may scupper that ideal scenario

Nice way of using quotes out of context :claping hands:

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

our wage bill is a lot lower.

To be fair to SISU, bringing in crap players has probably resulted in our wage budget being around £1.5-2 million. Whereas in the championship it was probably closer to £3.5 million +

You seriously underestimate championship wages, your looking at a wage bill of probably around 12 million just to be mediocre in the championship. Probably 20 million if you want to challenge for promotion.

 

[kg82]

Nice way of using quotes out of context :claping hands:

Well done for not realising I was agreeing with you :claping hands:

 

[skybluetony176]

You don't know if the crowds will reduce. If the extra revenue allows us to get back into the PL I have a suspicion all the issues with the ground being too far away, no parking, no train station etc would suddenly disappear.

Still be limited though to 16000 or whatever the capacity TF is arguing is enough at the moment.

 

[ccfc92]

First things first we don't know how far away from Coventry it will be. People are talking like its confirmed to be miles away. There's just as much chance it will be somewhere like Ansty, Broadstreet or Warwick Uni literally a step over the boundary. Franky if it was a location like that and anyone refused to go as it wasn't in Coventry they're an idiot.

As for debt its simple, we don't know the funding model or any other details for that matter. I think people are assuming that anyone who says don't discount a new stadium as the best option moving forward is saying lets walk out tomorrow and go 20 miles away and take a massive loan to build a new stadium. Nobody is saying that, just that we shouldn't cross the option off the list until we see full details. If anything Fisher should be put under pressure to produce a full, funded plan for us to examine.

1. So SISU have spoken to CCC about planning permission within Coventry?

2. That's all we are asking for! Just show us what plan the new stadium is, and would benefit CCFC, and you'll have 95% backing instead of 5%!

 

[ccfc92]

Well done for not realising I was agreeing with you :claping hands:

I know you were, but you took to different quotes and joined them.

 

[stupot07]

Still be limited though to 16000 or whatever the capacity TF is arguing is enough at the moment.

18k, with the view to add as necessary just like swanseas. To be fair as much as we like to big up our fan base we're not likely to average anymore than 13-14k on a promotion charge in league one or 15-16k treading water in the championship.


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[kg82]

I know you were, but you took to different quotes and joined them.

Yes, one where you've asked SISU to be savvy and business minded, and the other saying all parties (which I assume, one of them, was SISU) are thick.