D
Deleted member 5849
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Take it as a compliment that Tony sees you as a nutter.
Today's game (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter sw88
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Take it as a compliment that Tony sees you as a nutter.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
I like some of the nutters. Otis being one of them, you too
I don't actually disagree with what Otis is saying. It's the ones who go the extra mile and then either cop a deaf one or turn mute when it comes to our clubs owners. Something Otis doesn't do. The same posters who scoffed at anyone suggesting that SISU were overplaying their hand and what would happen if someone came in for the Ricoh, like who? they would say, it's a worthless white elephant, SISU are the only show in town etc. Some even dare suggest it may be of interest to a professional Rugby team, rounds of laughter from the intelligent scoffers, I even recall someone mentioning Wasps pointing out they'd played a European game here, try before you buy I seem to remember was my reply to that post, more laughter from the scoffing intellects. Yet here we are.
Then just recently they launch these bonds. Personally I don't know much about it so I pass little comment on it. The intellectual scoffers on the other hand were predicting a flop. That didn't exactly work out for them either. So now they're predicting that they won't be able to pay the interest and who knows the intellectual scoffers may be right. I don't pretend to know better but given the intellectual scoffers track record it'll probably end up being a roaring success.
They've pinned all their hopes it seems on CCFC being able to climb up high on the funeral pyre of Wasps RFC. Only problem being we're in danger of dying long before Wasps and that will be down to our owners not Wasps. Still if they keep ignoring our frailties while concentrating on Wasps I'm sure it will all come good in the end.
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SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
I'm not an expert on the bonds but to me it doesn't make sense, they've got to find 51 million over the next 7 years to pay back I think (35 million + 7 years interest at 6.5%) . As well as covering Wasps operating losses and putting out a competitive team. Doesn't seem reasonable to me unless they just take out loan after loan which obviously isn't ideal. If CCFC had proposed it, me and I'm sure almost everyone else would have been in hysterics at the idea. Will it work for them? Who knows but it doesn't add up to me.
Don't think anyone turns on mute when it comes to the club owners, the problem we have now which we didn't before is that even a competent owner will have an almost impossible job to turn us around now unless he has very deep pockets.
Don't think anyone turns on mute when it comes to the club owners, the problem we have now which we didn't before is that even a competent owner will have an almost impossible job to turn us around now unless he has very deep pockets.
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stupot07
Well-Known Member
Yes, the Ricoh never exist or had been on TV before wasps came along. Oh well no need for ccc to hang around, we're not needed, wanted it important. All hail wasps.
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SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
I don't think thats what people want to happen at all, if you believe that then you've completely missed the point of what people have been saying for the last 6 months. Some people just want to see the citys football team (the reason why it was built) to benefit from the Ricoh and not a Rugby team who have no historical connection to the city.
hutch1972
Well-Known Member
I thought it was wasps that has raised the city's profile , well according to them it was.Yes, the Ricoh never exist or had been on TV before wasps came along. Oh well no need for ccc to hang around, we're not needed, wanted it important. All hail wasps.
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Smug twats !
While we are talking jobs , they didn't give a shit about the local area around Adams park or the loss of jobs which followed them leaving.
Moff
Well-Known Member
That must be why you are on it so much Tony.
Moff
Well-Known Member
Try an ironing board its easier.
(EDIT * Damn beaten to it by NW already with this joke)
Moff
Well-Known Member
Nope it isnt excrutiating wishing that Wasps piss off back to from where they came, as supporting a local team I find they way they have left their traditional fanbase and muscled in, in the Midlands abhorent. I have always been straight and stated this as the reason I despise them.
Skyblueweeman
Well-Known Member
A number of embittered individuals at the council could've seen a true Coventry team secure in the City for years to come. Hell freezing over etc etc....
Skyblueweeman
Well-Known Member
I like some of the nutters. Otis being one of them, you too
I don't actually disagree with what Otis is saying. It's the ones who go the extra mile and then either cop a deaf one or turn mute when it comes to our clubs owners. Something Otis doesn't do. The same posters who scoffed at anyone suggesting that SISU were overplaying their hand and what would happen if someone came in for the Ricoh, like who they would say, it's a worthless white elephant, SISU are the only show in town etc. Some even dare suggest it may be of interest to a professional Rugby team, rounds of laughter from the intelligent scoffers, I even recall someone mentioning Wasps pointing out they'd played a European game here, try before you buy I seem to remember was my reply to that post, more laughter from the scoffing intellects. Yet here we are.
Then just recently they launch these bonds. Personally I don't know much about it so I pass little comment on it. The intellectual scoffers on the other hand were predicting a flop. That didn't exactly work out for them either. So now they're predicting that they won't be able to pay the interest and who knows the intellectual scoffers may be right. I don't pretend to know better but given the scoffers track record it'll probably end up being a roaring success.
They've pinned all their hopes it seems on CCFC being able to climb up high on the funeral pyre of Wasps RFC. Only problem being we're in danger of dying long before Wasps and that will be down to our owners not Wasps. Still if they keep ignoring our frailties while concentrating on Wasps I'm sure it will all come good in the end.
Who uses the word 'scoffers'?
Skyblueweeman
Well-Known Member
Agree with every word of this. Didn't realise the game was on (not a local) but saw the result on the Telegraph website and smiled contently.
Small battles and all that.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
I only come on the Wasps sub forum to turn every thread onto a debate on CCFC and SISU. It only seemed right as the majority of posters on this sub forum are the same ones who like to deflect practically every thread on the CCFC general chat forum onto a debate on Wasps. If you can't beat them join them.
Moff
Well-Known Member
Fair enough Tony...I was joking!
I dont like Wasps, nor Sisu, nor the council, nor Richardson (thats both of them Derek and Brian)....bloody hell my list goes on and on. Perhaps your claim that this thread is full of nutters is very appropriate.
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
People are capable of identifying the negative impact Wasps will have for us long term as well as the negative impact SISU are currently having. Of course the danger is that in 5-10 years time we have become so much of an after thought and insignificant that we really will be ignored which is your worry.I like some of the nutters. Otis being one of them, you too
I don't actually disagree with what Otis is saying. It's the ones who go the extra mile and then either cop a deaf one or turn mute when it comes to our clubs owners. Something Otis doesn't do. The same posters who scoffed at anyone suggesting that SISU were overplaying their hand and what would happen if someone came in for the Ricoh, like who? they would say, it's a worthless white elephant, SISU are the only show in town etc. Some even dare suggest it may be of interest to a professional Rugby team, rounds of laughter from the intelligent scoffers, I even recall someone mentioning Wasps pointing out they'd played a European game here, try before you buy I seem to remember was my reply to that post, more laughter from the scoffing intellects. Yet here we are.
Then just recently they launch these bonds. Personally I don't know much about it so I pass little comment on it. The intellectual scoffers on the other hand were predicting a flop. That didn't exactly work out for them either. So now they're predicting that they won't be able to pay the interest and who knows the intellectual scoffers may be right. I don't pretend to know better but given the intellectual scoffers track record it'll probably end up being a roaring success.
They've pinned all their hopes it seems on CCFC being able to climb up high on the funeral pyre of Wasps RFC. Only problem being we're in danger of dying long before Wasps and that will be down to our owners not Wasps. Still if they keep ignoring our frailties while concentrating on Wasps I'm sure it will all come good in the end.
italiahorse
Well-Known Member
The Wasps Defence League, always on hand to denounce anyone who mentions anything remotely negative towards wasps.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
Suicide Dave can't be positive :thinking about:
shy_tall_knight
Well-Known Member
Went to the ricoh today after the main game had finished to watch nephew play for Old Covents U14s against a WASPS and Leicester side - Old Covents won. Just a few observations the concourses were very busy with a lot of fans staying behind for a drink. The exhibition hall was extremely busy as was Singers bar. When we left at 8-00 and there were still lots of people, the drinks sales vastly exceed anything we ever generate. It was good to see the Ricoh busy but can't help feeling that its no longer our home.
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
Well maybe the people running that football team should have tried to buy it then? Huh?
Wasps have simply done what the football team should have done.
And all you can do is judge the effect, and not the cause.
What if - rather than Wasps doing what they did - a conference company had come along, popped a roof over the football stadium and used it for concerts and exhibitions? Now, I'm not advocating there's a business case for this, but if that had happened, you'd have to get down off your franchise-sport high-horse and perhaps realise that the fate of the Ricoh is as a function of SISU's brinkmanship; as without this, the council wouldn't have had a decision to make, and Wasps wouldn't have been nosing around.
In fact, the franchise-sport line is a great get-out-of-jail card for Fisher and his misguided policies; as it's got folk like you ranting at the wrong party for our hamstrung football club
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
That would have been a more consistent conclusion, to be perfectly honest. In fact this very option among many shows why they didn't *have* to sell to Wasps.
duffer
Well-Known Member
The usual bullshit here I see. People who would be absolutely outraged if CCFC moved one inch outside Coventry, and who probably marched on the streets when we went to Northampton, are actively supporting the franchise that came from London. Not just mutely supporting it, but buying tickets and giving money to it mind.
And they've got the brass bollocks to complain about other fans being bitter about Wasps. Of course I'm bitter - the council sold the club down the fucking river, and didn't give a shit about either the football or the rugby club that had been here for over 100 years. Am I supposed to support it because it gave Leicester RFC the chance to bring 15,000 - 20,000 of their fans over here for a few hours? Strangely enough, I don't give a toss about Leicester RFC...
Of course, that doesn't make right what our owners have done, and other than in a few people's heads I haven't seen anyone here defending them. It's the ultimate straw man argument, that.
As for the bonds, if you admit can't be arsed to understand how they work, and the risk they pose to Wasps business going forward, then what right do you have to criticise those who do make those points. Another pointless argument - it's a bit like saying I'm a bit too stupid and/or lazy to make a coherent argument, but I know you're wrong. The only way to make that kind of post worse is to close it with "FACT" or "END OF".
And they've got the brass bollocks to complain about other fans being bitter about Wasps. Of course I'm bitter - the council sold the club down the fucking river, and didn't give a shit about either the football or the rugby club that had been here for over 100 years. Am I supposed to support it because it gave Leicester RFC the chance to bring 15,000 - 20,000 of their fans over here for a few hours? Strangely enough, I don't give a toss about Leicester RFC...
Of course, that doesn't make right what our owners have done, and other than in a few people's heads I haven't seen anyone here defending them. It's the ultimate straw man argument, that.
As for the bonds, if you admit can't be arsed to understand how they work, and the risk they pose to Wasps business going forward, then what right do you have to criticise those who do make those points. Another pointless argument - it's a bit like saying I'm a bit too stupid and/or lazy to make a coherent argument, but I know you're wrong. The only way to make that kind of post worse is to close it with "FACT" or "END OF".
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
I said in a different thread that SISU lost all control of the future of ACL and the Ricoh the minute they self exiled CCFC to Northampton. Worse than that they made it so easy not only for another sports team to buy it on the cheap but also install themselves as anchor tenant. Even returning in the 11th hour didn't change this situation because they did on a short term match day only basis. SISU fucked up twice. First leaving and Second returning in the manor they did. Which is why you don't buy the "We came back to scupper the Wasps deal" theory. If you were going to do it you wouldn't do it in a manor that doesn't reduce the attractiveness of the deal that the other party is going to do. To do that they'd have to come back on A) a long term deal and B) a deal where you have the security of anchor tenant.
It's a hard bullet for some to swallow on here but SISU have got ACL/Ricoh wrong from day one. Even without taking the pointless JR into account.
It's a hard bullet for some to swallow on here but SISU have got ACL/Ricoh wrong from day one. Even without taking the pointless JR into account.
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
Agreed. And thank fuck they have a 'franchise sports team' to blame. It's the only handle upon which to hang their argument. Otherwise they'd have to actually think through the sequence of events - with the football club being used without care by it's owners - that gave rise to Wasps getting the Arena. If it had been turned into a conference centre, or concert venue; they'd have nothing to vent their vitriol at
duffer
Well-Known Member
If you've got any consistent morals, than the franchise argument should really be enough for you.
If that isn't enough though, I can give you the screwing over of the football club - which if they continue to fail or leave Coventry knocks the other rubbish argument about this being a good thing for the City squarely on it's head.
If wasn't for the fact that it had screwed SISU over, I'm pretty sure there might be a few others a bit more angry about it if they troubled themselves to join the dots - however for some that alone makes the deal good enough and not worth further consideration.
Covstu
Well-Known Member
I for one are very jealous of the current situation. Seeing alot of people i know go and enjoy the day at the Ricoh all wearing Black and yellow, hate it! Wasps too advantage of the poor situation that SISU and CCC had created (mostly SISU) so CCC stuck the finger and sold the company without caring about the consequences.
I think time will tell whether they are going to be successful, i have no idea how they are performing in the league or actually care but i would be interested to see if this positive attendance stays over next season and the next. Maybe a new shiney thing will appear for the people of Coventry to be interested in....
I think time will tell whether they are going to be successful, i have no idea how they are performing in the league or actually care but i would be interested to see if this positive attendance stays over next season and the next. Maybe a new shiney thing will appear for the people of Coventry to be interested in....
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
But the franchise sport thing is also that which is being used by many to offer repulsion and hatred towards the deal. I understand that. I truly do. But - and here's the point I'm making - it also excuses the club's owners for the perilous position they put the football club in to achieve their own goal. And let's be honest, the asset (ACL, freehold, long lease, etc.) - would never have been held in the same Limited Company at the football club, it would have been a SISU Group asset.
What if CRFC had been a touch more successful in recent seasons - just two divisions better - and they were then in a position to move into The Arena. What would folk say then? The franchise sport argument goes out of the window, the 'supporting local sport' argument with regards the local council goes out of the window. What are you left with? The analysis of how the football club's owners put the football club's very viability at risk, and lost. That's the debate we'd be having. And we're not
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
You won't find me arguing otherwise about a lot of what you have said here, I've said several times if we had never left for Northampton then Wasps almost certainly wouldn't be here.
I'm not ranting at the wrong party, I know who is to blame for the current state of the club and that is undoubtedly the owners. I also know that because of the sale of the Ricoh, that barring a miracle the club will almost find it impossible to recover from this.
Its simple, before Wasps arrived I could always see the road to recovery from the mess SISU have left us in
After Wasps arrived I can no longer see the road to recovery from the mess SISU have left us in.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
They'd be using the it was built for us argument while still not giving a shit about CRFC because they're egg chucker's. It's funny how many people used the latter point to have a dig at the likes of LAST and BHSB when they started following CRFC last season all of a sudden juxtaposed their position and it's all about CRFC.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
The problem with cause and effect though is then we go in the circles of what causes what.
And as there was no flexibility over leases to be in the ground, something had to be done to change that.
Extreme, ruthless... but an entirely commercial decision made to force a commercial dispute. All the time this has been a commercial dispute, and part of the inflexibility in lease has been the desire to maintain a financial position. The problem is when it becomes commercial... deal with the sharks, you risk them ripping your leg off.
I don't expect a public service to be purely driven by finance. It seems, however, ours is.
So it may be a SISU cause of moving, but SISU also had cause to move from other actions. One definable position never works, and never works well. That still doesn;t alter the fact that while playing the caring, sharing, social hand, the former owners of ACL showed little actual desire to move from beyond a financial decision... culminating in professing many great things about community assets and building bridges.
As opposed to reducing it to the filthy lucre.
(FWIW had the Wasps owner bought CRFC and moved them to the Ricoh, then that's a far more appropriate way to get a successful Coventry based rugby team in my eyes - not like he'd have been taking over a club without the tradition and past success, is it?)
And as there was no flexibility over leases to be in the ground, something had to be done to change that.
Extreme, ruthless... but an entirely commercial decision made to force a commercial dispute. All the time this has been a commercial dispute, and part of the inflexibility in lease has been the desire to maintain a financial position. The problem is when it becomes commercial... deal with the sharks, you risk them ripping your leg off.
I don't expect a public service to be purely driven by finance. It seems, however, ours is.
So it may be a SISU cause of moving, but SISU also had cause to move from other actions. One definable position never works, and never works well. That still doesn;t alter the fact that while playing the caring, sharing, social hand, the former owners of ACL showed little actual desire to move from beyond a financial decision... culminating in professing many great things about community assets and building bridges.
As opposed to reducing it to the filthy lucre.
(FWIW had the Wasps owner bought CRFC and moved them to the Ricoh, then that's a far more appropriate way to get a successful Coventry based rugby team in my eyes - not like he'd have been taking over a club without the tradition and past success, is it?)
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
Again, as you've stated, I can see a great deal of right in what you say.
I don't have a Wasps-leaning, I truly don't; but I saw this car-crash coming and therefore take an almost resigned view on the outcome. I care for three rugby teams; Rugby Lions, Coventry and Bath (the latter only as a function of some great nights there when playing against them for the former two). I don't see the Wasps deal as negative to rugby in the area, but that's only a personal opinion based on what I know of how the game works.
I also share the negative opinion with regards franchise sport. Equally, I do recognise that 90% of the city's taxpayers don't. It's that Devils Advocate view I try and get across on here. Most people from Coventry would watch BT Sport on Saturday, seeing the sell-out and the glowing way in which a location in Coventry is being lauded and be proud. I'm sorry, but that's the truth
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
As an aside, the genuinely interesting objective survey would be to find out how it was received across the country, and whether Wasps were seen as a representation of Coventry.
My hypothesis would be no... but it would be interesting to test.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
I think the mistake you're making is that you're assuming people saying one thing is wrong, Wasps being at the Ricoh, means they are saying there is no blame elsewhere. I don't think anyone, apart from maybe RFC, thinks that.
Everyone agrees that SISU have made a mess of running the club, to put it mildly. Everyone agrees going to Northampton was a mistake. That doesn't give CCC, Higgs, ACL, Wasps or anyone else a free pass to destroy and chance the club has of improving its fortunes for decades to come.
For me its simple. CCC should not have undertaken a campaign of deceit regarding the status of ACL. This is just pure dishonesty towards the electorate.
If, and even now we don't know for sure it was the case, ACL needed to be sold it should have been done in an open manner. The terms made known to everyone and bids invited on that basis. Have everything done in public so if you get a bidder such as Wasps the likes of CRFC have the opportunity to consider the bid and raise objections.
Under no circumstances should CCC have sold ACL to a rugby club from London. That's not anti-Wasps, it would be the same with any team, or for that matter if they tried to move a football team in.
There are other areas of the deal that questions need to be asked about but that's more to do with the details of a deal that should never have happened.
Personally I'd be happy sharing with CRFC, assuming there were no pitch quality issues. I would be amazed if CRFC would have done a deal in secret to screw our club though. The two seem to have a decent relationship. I remember when there was talk of us leaving the Ricoh one of the top men, can't remember who, from CRFC was on CWR saying they would do absolutely anything they could to help the club.
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
Councils are mad things. You and I both know this. I live under the jurisdiction of the Rugby Borough Council, and they are basket-cases extraordinaire. They do stupid, self-serving things. When startled, they can and will magnify their insanity. I never expected the Coventry council to do anything other than act irrationally. Many people predicted they'd crumble in the face of a commercial ogre playing hard-ball. I never saw it this way.
What they have you is to solve a complex problem in a manner that will have - I'm afraid to say - the vast majority of Coventry's taxpayers applauding them. Do I agree with that majority? Hell no; but again, I do know that many more people will sit with some pride and watch the national headlines than will lament the long-term issues the football club is left with.
It was evidently a commercial dispute; but there was a point on the journey from 'average league one rents' to 'dingy offices, we're building anew' when SISU had to realised they'd over-played their hand to a point when the very existence of the club was jeopardised. That's what I'll never forgive them for. And whether it was Wasps, the NEC, or anyone coming along with an alternative and thus offering the coup de grace almost irrelevent
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
Thing is, this landscape changes awfully quickly; especially with younger supporters. Talk to many under 20's and talk about CCFC as a Premier League club, and they'll consider you insane. Saturday's match was well received in the rugby community within the national press. Those who went who I know really enjoyed it. Posts I've read on here talk in terms of bars still being occupied at 8pm. It'll become a 'day out' on the calendar quite quickly. Whether that necessarily equates to Wasps representing Coventry - I'm not so sure; but that won't stop it being popular
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
And tbh long term, this is what will vindicate or otherwise CCC's move.
They have, in effect, sacrificed two of their major signifiers for one which has no link to the city. Forget the numbers of who goes, they'll ebb and flow - what the city needs is an identity that stops it feeling obliged to sell itself as a city in Shakespeare's County. Keeping a secure and definable identity can be worth far more than an extra pie bought somewhere.
S
srida1991
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