Tom Bayliss (2 Viewers)

Esoterica · Aug 16, 2018

HuckerbyDublinWhelan said:
Is it me or is he causing headaches?

He’s a creative player so isn’t suited to playing deep, yet his best position would seemingly be where Andreu plays

Given his rise, he’s nearly undroppable how do we play a team with Andreu, Bayliss and when he is fit, Jones without stifling their creativity?

I think that position on the right of 3 is fine for him. He's being asked to do too much defensive covering though off the ball and is often getting the ball too deep to hurt teams.
We're dropping into a flat 4-4-1-1 a lot of the time out of possession, sometimes a 4-3-mess because Bayliss seems a little more disciplined at dropping in than Hiwula (maybe that's by design, hard to say)
Here's a screenshot I took showing it:

1) Look how deep the whole team is: 8+keeper in a third of the pitch vs much fewer attackers.
2) If we win the ball back, what happens next there? Expect someone to dribble half the pitch? Give the ball to Andreu with only Biamou ahead of him? Go long with 4 defenders marking 1 striker?

We're too defensively set up so our forwards cannot flourish and I also think there's too much confusion switching between 4-2-3-1 on the ball and 4-4-2 off it. Footballers are simple beasts and we're overcomplicating it to the detriment of our attacking players.

It's the transition between those 2 formations that is making us look so disjointed. Will they get used to it? How long will that take? Are the forwards good enough when they do? All open questions for me.

CCFC88 · Aug 16, 2018

It's difficult to tell the context of a screenshot like that as you don't know what's happened before which would explain our positioning, looks to me like a clearance has been made and they've taken a quick throw in, our defence is in the process of pushing up, as is the midfield that are on the side where the ball is.

No way we would be letting them have a throw in with so little pressure on if it wasn't a quick one.

skybluepm2 · Aug 16, 2018

Nick said:
You need to give them the banjo sort of near the cows arse though.

Not sure why people seem to think the new strikers are missing loads of chances or something. Have to create them chances for them to score (or miss) before really judging them either way.

I get what you’re saying Nick, but Hiwula missed a couple of very good changes against Scunthorpe, one against Wimbledon and one against Oxford. Bakayoko was through against Wimbledon too and squandered it. I’m hoping they come good but we can only comment on what we’ve seen and produced so far in terms of goals which has been shite.

I don’t think creating chances will be the problem, we should’ve had a hatful against Scunthorpe.

Esoterica · Aug 16, 2018

CCFC88 said:
It's difficult to tell the context of a screenshot like that as you don't know what's happened before which would explain our positioning, looks to me like a clearance has been made and they've taken a quick throw in, our defence is in the process of pushing up, as is the midfield that are on the side where the ball is.

No way we would be letting them have a throw in with so little pressure on if it wasn't a quick one.

Well yes way we did. Liam O'Brien shanked a kick down field under no pressure out of play. We had 10 seconds to organise it from the ball going out of play but we chose to drop that deep. Hiwula drops all the way back and applies no pressure - like they are having to think about their instructions, not the game itself. And that was my point, they just don't look natural swapping between the formations.

CCFC88 · Aug 16, 2018

Good to understand a bit of the context, once the thrown in is easily taken Hiwulu is definitely exposed in a 2 on 1 situation, I would suggest he should be getting more support from Doyle, Mason cant really push up too far as its a throw in and their two forwards, who cant be offside, have set up camp beyond out 18 yard line.

We can't push up any further as they'd just throw it down the line past Mason. As you can see from the first grab, as soon as the throw in is taken everyone is pushing out again.

skybluepm2 · Aug 16, 2018

Nick said:
You need to give them the banjo sort of near the cows arse though.

Not sure why people seem to think the new strikers are missing loads of chances or something. Have to create them chances for them to score (or miss) before really judging them either way.

You say that Nick but Hiwula missed a couple of very good changes against Scunthorpe, one against Wimbledon and one against Oxford. Bakayoko was through against Wimbledon too and squandered it. I’m hoping they come good but we can only comment on what we’ve seen and produced so far in terms of goals and it’s been poor.

Brylowes · Aug 16, 2018

Who would have thought ‘CCFC would find itself in the position of having
Too many good players to squeeze into the team

djr8369 · Aug 16, 2018

Brylowes said:
Who would have thought ‘CCFC would find itself in the position of having
Too many good players to squeeze into the team

A good problem to have if you’re winning.

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Brylowes · Aug 16, 2018

djr8369 said:
A good problem to have if you’re winning.

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An unexpected problem to have ‘if you’re us.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 16, 2018

HuckerbyDublinWhelan said:
Is it me or is he causing headaches?

He’s a creative player so isn’t suited to playing deep, yet his best position would seemingly be where Andreu plays

Given his rise, he’s nearly undroppable how do we play a team with Andreu, Bayliss and when he is fit, Jones without stifling their creativity?

As a diamond you could go:

_____Ogogo
Bayliss____Andreu
_____Jones
Biamou____Hiw/Bak

If MR sticks to 4-2-3-1
____Ogogo_____Kelly
Jones____Andreu_____Bayliss
_________Biamou

but with that even though we'd create I'm still not convinced we'd convert many

djr8369 · Aug 16, 2018

Sky_Blue_Ste said:
Oh, not blaming him, it’s just a bit of a conundrum really. Both great players & you want to play both etc. For me, I’d drop Bayliss back to partner Ogogo & have Andreu ahead of them. Bayliss can break forward as he does, whilst Andreu then covers him.

Bayliss played this position at Oxford and by all accounts wasn’t suited to it.

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djr8369 · Aug 16, 2018

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
As a diamond you could go:

_____Ogogo
Bayliss____Andreu
_____Jones
Biamou____Hiw/Bak

If MR sticks to 4-2-3-1
____Ogogo_____Kelly
Jones____Andreu_____Bayliss
_________Biamou

but with that even though we'd create I'm still not convinced we'd convert many

Does that not leave us with one of the issues we have now though. Players who aren’t natural wide players drifting inside and leaving the fullbacks exposed? I think the idea is Doyle and Ogogo cover for them when this happens but doesn’t seem to be working.

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Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 16, 2018

djr8369 said:
Does that not leave us with one of the issues we have now though. Players who aren’t natural wide players drifting inside and leaving the fullbacks exposed? I think the idea is Doyle and Ogogo cover for them when this happens but doesn’t seem to be working.

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Yes it does. It kind of relies on us controlling the game and creating chances from the extra attacking threat and thus hopefully reducing the need for cover a bit as they attack less. It'd be a risky strategy but at least it'd be exciting. Maybe a strategy just for home games?

I was just trying to answer the question of how to fit the three of them in.

djr8369 · Aug 16, 2018

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Yes it does. It kind of relies on us controlling the game and creating chances from the extra attacking threat and thus hopefully reducing the need for cover a bit as they attack less. It'd be a risky strategy but at least it'd be exciting. Maybe a strategy just for home games?

I was just trying to answer the question of how to fit the three of them in.

I think playing them as the three behind the striker is the best option but then we’re not playing Hiwula or Baka (obviously good to have options on the bench though).

It’s a conundrum and I’m not convinced there’s any option that doesn’t leave 1-2 who are expecting to play on the bench.

Maybe the best option is what we’re currently playing but it’s going to take a while to adapt. Don’t think we’ll see the best from Hiwula unless he’s in a front two though.

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BornSlippySkyBlue · Aug 16, 2018

Think I must be one of the few that thought Hiwula looked quite dangerous against scunny.

Wasn’t it him (from memory) that did a good bit of control, swift turn and forced a top class save from their keeper?

Given time in the middle I reckon he’s got goals in him for sure. If he gets the service of course...

djr8369 · Aug 16, 2018

BornSlippySkyBlue said:
Think I must be one of the few that thought Hiwula looked quite dangerous against scunny.

Wasn’t it him (from memory) that did a good bit of control, swift turn and forced a top class save from their keeper?

Given time in the middle I reckon he’s got goals in him for sure. If he gets the service of course...

I thought the same. Think he’ll score a fair few of played down the middle.

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fernandopartridge · Aug 16, 2018

Esoterica said:
I think that position on the right of 3 is fine for him. He's being asked to do too much defensive covering though off the ball and is often getting the ball too deep to hurt teams.
We're dropping into a flat 4-4-1-1 a lot of the time out of possession, sometimes a 4-3-mess because Bayliss seems a little more disciplined at dropping in than Hiwula (maybe that's by design, hard to say)
Here's a screenshot I took showing it:View attachment 10362

1) Look how deep the whole team is: 8+keeper in a third of the pitch vs much fewer attackers.
2) If we win the ball back, what happens next there? Expect someone to dribble half the pitch? Give the ball to Andreu with only Biamou ahead of him? Go long with 4 defenders marking 1 striker?

We're too defensively set up so our forwards cannot flourish and I also think there's too much confusion switching between 4-2-3-1 on the ball and 4-4-2 off it. Footballers are simple beasts and we're overcomplicating it to the detriment of our attacking players.

It's the transition between those 2 formations that is making us look so disjointed. Will they get used to it? How long will that take? Are the forwards good enough when they do? All open questions for me.

Part of making that transition work is where on the pitch it happens. We need the two defensively minded midfield players to drag the team forward so that transition happens in a position where strikers can get on the ball in more advanced positions

cc84cov · Aug 16, 2018

BornSlippySkyBlue said:
Think I must be one of the few that thought Hiwula looked quite dangerous against scunny.

Wasn’t it him (from memory) that did a good bit of control, swift turn and forced a top class save from their keeper?

Given time in the middle I reckon he’s got goals in him for sure. If he gets the service of course...

Agree with service he will score Match sharpness still needs to come I feel

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 16, 2018

djr8369 said:
I think playing them as the three behind the striker is the best option but then we’re not playing Hiwula or Baka (obviously good to have options on the bench though).

It’s a conundrum and I’m not convinced there’s any option that doesn’t leave 1-2 who are expecting to play on the bench.

Maybe the best option is what we’re currently playing but it’s going to take a while to adapt. Don’t think we’ll see the best from Hiwula unless he’s in a front two though.

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Undoubtedly we'll end up with people on the bench who'd expect to play. Up front I think we're likely to end up with some not even on the bench. I think Biamou, Hiwula, Bakayoko and JCH would all be wanting to play and Ponti would expect to be on the bench but you can't fit that many into the squad - someone will miss out and we could end up with a few disgruntled bodies rather than the togetherness MR wants. Ponti may end up going on loan but the rest? All apart from Biamou were only signed this summer and Biamou looks the best option for competing for the ball and making it stick up front.

I agree I think Hiwula needs to be central and with a strike partner, but I also think Bakayoko would be more effective like this as well. But I don't think they'd work well as a pair, especially against more physical sides so you're already choosing one to partner Biamou and leaving one out.

I'm not convinced of our formation at the moment unless they manage to push further up the pitch and give Bayliss a bit more freedom.

As strange at it feels to say this I think the squad might be a bit too big (or at least unbalanced in certain areas) especially now we've signed Thomas. I can see a lot of U23's being touted for loans.

JimmyHillsbeard · Aug 16, 2018

CCFC88 said:
Bit different as Robins hasn't brought in Andreu, he was here and Bayliss broke through in his absence, don't think you can pin the blame for this at MR's door.

Er...

Yes he did

BornSlippySkyBlue · Aug 16, 2018

cc84cov said:
Agree with service he will score Match sharpness still needs to come I feel

djr8369 said:
I thought the same. Think he’ll score a fair few of played down the middle.

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Time will tell I guess, agree he (and a few more of them) could do with another pre-season!

Hopefully it won’t take them too long to get up to speed.

How to play him to get the best out of him also remains to be seen. One concern I have is that we have a lot of young, inexperienced players that might come good given the chance and played in a formation that suits them, but how long will any of them get when we have so many other options? If, say, Hiwula doesn’t score for a few games (a la McNulty), is he going stick with them?

I worry there are too many permutations and we’re going to struggle to find the best fit.

Although I’m not too disappointed with the squad (bar a couple of things), I’m not expecting us to be seriously challenging this season. Think this will be a season to bed the new players in, work out the best formation, gain some experience for the young players and then push on next season.

Personally I’d be happy with that, not sure that the boo boys will be though...

Edited for typos

luwalla · Aug 16, 2018

Same here, thought

djr8369 said:
I thought the same. Think he’ll score a fair few of played down the middle.

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Me too, thought he looked like he could be a real danger with a few more games under his belt & gets that all important first goal.

All this talk of him being shit etc after two games is just nonsense.

fernandopartridge · Aug 16, 2018

JimmyHillsbeard said:
Er...

Yes he did

I think he means signed him after Bayliss was established

Sky_Blue_Ste · Aug 16, 2018

djr8369 said:
Bayliss played this position at Oxford and by all accounts wasn’t suited to it.

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Played next to Doyle many games last season when Kelly got injured - was his best position last year? I think the Oxford game was a one off for a lot of players

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