Trump is my favourite comedian of the year already (8 Viewers)
- Thread starter tisza
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Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
An official from the Trump administration admitted they’d got it wrong, the official was then fired for the crime of being honest. This is a person they have conceded isn’t a criminal, end of discussion.
Our societies are meant to work by due process to ensure only those guilty of crimes end up doing the time. If that’s now off the table, anyone can be thrown into prison at the government’s whim. I can think someone’s a prick while also defending their right to a lawyer and a fair trial.
Just how I see you not speaking against the arrest of people for protesting against Israel. Just be honest and admit you only care about the freedom when it applies to people you like and agree with.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
I would definitely encourage you to read up about El Salvador properly and what's been happening in that country in recent times.
I am not suggesting it was not an administrate error, but the outcome is as it should have been over 10 years ago anyway. The bloke was illegal and has gang ties. He wasn't an innocent old lady who got thrown in the back of a van on her way home from the shops. Let's not pretend we are all human rights warriors - it is just a way to vent at Trump without really thinking anything through.
The immigration court reviewed materials sufficient enough to convince them to deny bond of Kamil Abrego Garcia, based upon evidence he was MS-13 - this was back in 2019. Citation: "the evidence show(ed) that he is a verified member of [Mara Salvatrucha] (MS-13)]".
I don't have any sympathy in this case.
Facts don’t care about your feelings etc etc
If he’s such an obviously bad guy, put him through the court system and get rid of him.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
You don't have a clue what you are talking about. You Trump bash on here every single day and as soon as someone quotes you, you start dancing because you are really just venting without substance. I get it, Trump is a clown, and you hate him, but at least use facts rather than just pure emotion because it comes across as a bit lunatic.
To come out and say he wasn't a gang member is ridiculous. The evidence (even from several years in the past, and in different courts, shows that he is). Why are you fighting for the rights of a gangster? You do know what MS-13 do, right? If you have a better example of someone wrongfully deported that isn't a piece of shit, I would be right with you. This isn't the one.
I am well aware it was an administrate error, but it was still almost certainly the right decision. Like I said - I would hold an entirely different opinion if it was indeed the old lady from the shops - but it isn't.
I don't agree with arresting people for simply protesting if it is peaceful, and if that is what they are doing - regardless of their cause. I do have an issue with people protesting about other countries in our country all the fucking time though. That is a slightly different thing, however.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
The facts are what I based my ‘rant’ on. Though since you asked, here’s a fresh one.
After ICE Agents Realized They Arrested the Wrong Teen in N.Y.C., They Were Told to 'Take Him Anyway': Report
Merwil Gutiérrez, 19, was deported to El Salvador despite his family’s claims that he has no criminal record or gang affiliation. The teen's father claims that ICE agents admitted Merwil wasn't their target, but were told to 'take him anyway'
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Not American though so fuck himThe facts are what I based my ‘rant’ on. Though since you asked, here’s a fresh one.
After ICE Agents Realized They Arrested the Wrong Teen in N.Y.C., They Were Told to 'Take Him Anyway': Report
Merwil Gutiérrez, 19, was deported to El Salvador despite his family’s claims that he has no criminal record or gang affiliation. The teen's father claims that ICE agents admitted Merwil wasn't their target, but were told to 'take him anyway'people.com
Otis
Well-Known Member
That's shocking, if trueThe facts are what I based my ‘rant’ on. Though since you asked, here’s a fresh one.
After ICE Agents Realized They Arrested the Wrong Teen in N.Y.C., They Were Told to 'Take Him Anyway': Report
Merwil Gutiérrez, 19, was deported to El Salvador despite his family’s claims that he has no criminal record or gang affiliation. The teen's father claims that ICE agents admitted Merwil wasn't their target, but were told to 'take him anyway'
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
The facts are what I based my ‘rant’ on. Though since you asked, here’s a fresh one.
After ICE Agents Realized They Arrested the Wrong Teen in N.Y.C., They Were Told to 'Take Him Anyway': Report
Merwil Gutiérrez, 19, was deported to El Salvador despite his family’s claims that he has no criminal record or gang affiliation. The teen's father claims that ICE agents admitted Merwil wasn't their target, but were told to 'take him anyway'
They weren't, because you said he 'objectively wasn't a gang member' - despite an immigration court in 2019 revieing evidence from the FBI that says he was. Like I said, you got carried away without reviewing everything properly. I would totally agree with you regarding picking up random people off the streets and deporting them, but I absolutely do not think there should be any soft approach on gangsters, jihadis, or criminals.
In the case of the example you listed now, Merwil Gutiérrez, this is one to watch. His family say he wasn't in a gang - that isn't really enough evidence on its own. It looks like he got to the US illegally, so deportation was probably inevitable anyway. If this is all incorrect, then they should sort it out certainly. I suspect however, that there is more to come out about this.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
In order for someone to be deemed a criminal there has to be a process. The Trump regime is carting people off to El Salvador with no trial or due process.
If you can’t see the problem I don’t know what else to say.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
If its so open and shut that he is a criminal why the need to avoid due process?
Just seems a slippery slope to me. You might agree with the end result for this particular individual but what about the next next 'whoops we made a mistake, oh well, nothing we can do now' or 'whoops, we got the wrong person, nevermind send them anyway'?
Seems a dangerous game to me just hoping all the people that get rounded up are wrong uns.
SIR ERNIE
Well-Known Member
Is that what Trump said when Starmer came crawling?
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
I can see how it could be a problem. Like I said, if Merwil Gutiérrez is innocent and also has a genuine asylum claim then they should do the right thing. I just don't buy the narrative that they are deliberately rounding up hoards of innocent people and deporting them for no reason. If there are many people being deported who have not done anything wrong then I would also agree with you.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
It’s estimated that around 3/4 of those already sent to ES haven’t committed a crime.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Starmer got in by default and will last one term.
How do you know he is, he was charged based on an informer who said he was a gang member in New York when he had never been to New York
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
What evidence is there for this?
It’s from a 60 Minutes investigation
U.S. sent 238 migrants to Salvadoran mega-prison; documents indicate most have no apparent criminal records
The U.S. sent 238 Venezuelan migrants to a Salvadoran mega-prison. The Trump administration says they're all gang members, but 60 Minutes could find no criminal records for 75 percent of them.
www.cbsnews.com
Grendel
Well-Known Member
The Obama regime didn’t stop detaining people in Cuba without trial or charge - it’s hardly a political side to take
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Obama is hardly left wing. He'd be centre-right in the UK.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
In America he is.
mmttww
Well-Known Member
Didn't say it was. Making a joke, mostly to myself, about articles and opinions that don't suit certain arguments being dismissed as biased towards left wing positions.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
60 minutes is a pretty good platform and have done some great work. In this case however, the suggestion being made is not accurate. It is some pretty woolly investigation to one deportation flight, where the information released about the individuals is very minimal due to State Secrets Privilege. Realistically, the narrative driven conclusions being made are nonsense. It's like trying to say that Jihadi John is a good boy because in the UK and hasn't done any crime, so his beheadings in Syria can be ignored.
This is key:
"In response to our findings, a Department of Homeland Security spokeswoman said many of those without criminal records, quote "are actually terrorists, human rights abusers, gangsters, and more. They just don't have a rap sheet in the u.s."
Border Czar Tom Homan said immigration agents spent hours conducting rigorous checks on each of the men to confirm they are members of Tren de Aragua, a Venezuelan gang president Trump campaigned on eradicating.
Quite a significant difference to: 75% of people deported to El Salvador being poor innocent victims that haven't done anything wrong.
mmttww
Well-Known Member
it's hard to trust a response from anyone that would work for Trump and co. is genuine or accurate. I get he had a role at ICE under Obama but taking a gig with Fox News in the interim isn't a great sign that he's all about truth and honesty.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
And the problem is that anything coming from any part of Trump's administration cannot be trusted. That is where we are with the U.S. government - they cannot be trusted (even more so than normal).
I'm not saying these definitively are not criminals or terrorists, I just think the say-so of people in the administration and their 'rigourous checks'. If they're that rigourous, then put it through the process. Should be a breeze with the amount of judges appointed by the Reps in recent years.
Why would evidence of low-level Venezuelan gang activity be subject to state secrets privilege?
“We do actually have evidence, it just goes to another school” is unbelievably weak. Why not just…show the evidence?
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
I get what you are saying. It all comes down to trust and really, who's politics you like. If the UK said they had sent a plane full of Albanian gangsters back home however, I would certainly think it was a good thing, regardless of who was in government. Sadly that is what this is. No one cared when it was a different administration, now we are suddenly outraged and making up statistics (not aimed at you).
It doesn't matter where they commited the crimes, if they are gangsters (of which these gangs do pretty despicable things), then it might be a good idea to do something about it. People can laugh all they want, or get upset, but anyone that seriously wants these people walking the streets with common-folk need their head checking. I'm pretty confident many on that plane were extremely dangerous individuals.
This might not be some people's favourable politics, I certainly don't like Trump (his treatment of Zelensky for example is a disgrace), but making shit up isn't really helpful in the argument against him or his administration. In fact, it helps him.
As for the State Secret Privilidge, if you were trying to break down networks of gangs (which was in Trumps campaign, which people voted, and he got elected for), then it might be in the best interests of the government not to release information that may compromise these actions. The whole purpose of it is to protect intelligence gathering, and national security. Of course it could be used in a sinister way, but as untrustworthy as Trump is, I would still be surprised.
mmttww
Well-Known Member
Trust, Yeah. Politics, not so much. I never trusted Starmer but hoped he'd follow through and focus on his manifesto because it liked a lot of it. Different things.
Just hilarious levels of credulity here. Is there a word for someone who’s this trusting?
I assume the next time you’re tempted to whine about “two-tier justice” or some other legal malpractice you’ll remember that so long as the government says they’re in the right you have nothing to worry about.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
If the UK sent back a load of Albanian gangsters I'd think it was great regardless of which party was in government. However, I would like them to prove these people were gangsters before doing it.
Same as I'd approve of any government taking any dangerous criminals off the street. Provided they'd had the due legal process and their guilt proven. If they haven't had that then I wouldn't approve of it, regardless of political persuasion, because that's a dangerous precedent to just let those in power decide who's guilty and who isn't without having to prove it.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
Yeah, that's absolutely fine and I get it. I know where you are coming from. If however, you have a chance to bring 50 terrorists/gangsters to justice by keeping a lid on operations whilst you gather evidence and therefore bust a wider network, then that's more important than only getting one because you need to give the game away in order to please some people that hate the administration.
If this was Obama in power, I doubt we would even be having this discussion. Everything else is just really empty noise from people that aren't getting attention here, or just don't know how comparisons work. It ruins any reasonable counter-arguments.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Quite a few people had those coats at my school in the 90s in that period where they were popular, it's always the quiet ones.'In those proceedings, the government claimed that he was a member of the MS-13 criminal gang because "he was wearing a Chicago Bulls hat and a hoodie"'
Fuck, that's me convinced.
People who don’t know how comparisons work, you say?