Trump is my favourite comedian of the year already (4 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I don’t think you’ve taken any of the points on board, which is a shame.

Real wisdom will come from examining a situation from another viewpoint, as I have.

Work on those things, mindfulness is a gift.

You have made none worthy of being taken on board. Voter ID is a solution for a false problem.

 

---

[shmmeee]

Ok.

Some nuance:

2000 Gore V Bush. The race was so close it came down to one state, Florida. Bush was declared winner eventually by about 500 votes and crucially, Gore conceded. In the post-analysis, there were about 600 late / unsigned / incorrect ballots that were for Bush that should have been discounted PLUS about 2000 votes were flipped away from Gore by a machine error.*(see butterfly ballot case - printing machine error / layout caused confusion)

Al Gore, a screaming lefty democrat, should have won the 2000 election.

Why is this important? This is just around 9/11 and Iraq and Bin Laden time. Would Al Gore have been so ready to go to war? With millions displaced / killed, billions of dollars of damage and nations turned upside down. The after effects in the Middle East still being played out today.

I say this as a Republican supporter but also because I’m not entrenched in prejudice and because I’m a realist: The democrats should have won that election. The few votes that were possibly illegal / unverified changed the course of history.

Let me double down:

1924. Ladywood Birmingham. (Stop rolling your eyes - you’ll get there). Unionist candidate (Tory) beat the Labour candidate after a few recounts. First count Tory won by about 7 votes, then another count Labour won by about 2 and then after an accusation of some Labour votes disappearing (Tory supporter shoved them up their coat, allegedly), the Tory candidate won.

Why is this important? The Tory was Neville Chamberlain and the Labour candidate was Oswald Mosley. Mosley at the time (1924) was tipped to be next PM (have in mind that the guy who later attended Mosley’s wedding - Hitler was up to all sorts in Germany at the time). Imagine Mosley being still on course to be PM around this time and Chamberlain out of office. As it happened, Mosely was out of parliament and lost momentum.

A handful of votes……

Anyone that says a few dodgy votes don’t make a difference - uneducated. Anyone that says mistakes don’t happen in elections - complete moron. Anyone that doesn’t think that bad actors that try to influence elections for their own aims don’t exist - gullible.

I’ve just given pretty factual examples of where small margins make big differences. In those cases, the “left” were thwarted by the “right”.

88000 votes swung the 2020 election. Entrenched dribblers started frothing when I mentioned that I’d like to see the final vote count for 2024 and see some expert analysis of 2020. Gore and Bush, incidentally got 50m votes each. Obama 60 odd million. Biden 81m and now both candidates 70m odd. 2020 was a strange election with mainly postal voting and therefore ID checks and so on quite difficult to audit.

I know it makes me a huge conspiracy theorist to even want to look at the figures of 100% honest squeaky clean 10% Joe Biden and his son Hunter.

Nonetheless, so confident that everything was above board that Biden is now considering pardoning and giving immunity to those that certified the election.

Anyway, call me a crackpot now if you like but keep your fingers crossed that real evidence doesn’t come out that 2020 wasn’t straight.

To conclude:

Every vote counts.

Illegitimate votes and voting machine errors have changed the course of history.

Progressives lost out in the above.

Voter ID is important because it reduces the chance of fraud.

This entire thing is a case against voter ID. Of a few votes matter and we know voter ID costs a few votes and we have no evidence of voter fraud. Then bringing voter ID in is by definition the worst case.

 

[shmmeee]

You can tell people who have never worked a job that requires lead conversion. A 4% conversion rate drop is three fire alarm stuff.

 

[The Philosopher]

I’ve read a lot of opinions on here.

Some that I struggle with:

“Voter ID shouldn’t be required” (but should be for driving, buying alcohol, getting a bank account hiring a bike, claiming benefits, renting a house, buying a house, (living generally)).

“Because….BAME people….disabled people….Rees-Mogg admitted cheating” (absolute nonsense)

Just plain weird.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I’ve read a lot of opinions on here.

Some that I struggle with:

“Voter ID shouldn’t be required” (but should be for driving, buying alcohol, getting a bank account hiring a bike, claiming benefits, renting a house, buying a house, (living generally)).

“Because….BAME people….disabled people….Rees-Mogg admitted cheating” (absolute nonsense)

Just plain weird.

Rees Mogg did admit what it was about. And because you see a chance for your ‘side’ to benefit from this, you’re arguing for it.

We should do everything we can to encourage voting, that’s all there is to it. Putting obstacles in the way puts some people off bothering.

 

[chiefdave]

“Voter ID shouldn’t be required” (but should be for driving, buying alcohol, getting a bank account hiring a bike, claiming benefits, renting a house, buying a house, (living generally)).

Just had an argument in the post office. Won’t give me my parcel because the parcel is addressed to Dave and my driving license says David.

Let’s hope the voter id system involves engaging common sense.

 

[shmmeee]

I’ve read a lot of opinions on here.

Some that I struggle with:

“Voter ID shouldn’t be required” (but should be for driving, buying alcohol, getting a bank account hiring a bike, claiming benefits, renting a house, buying a house, (living generally)).

“Because….BAME people….disabled people….Rees-Mogg admitted cheating”

Which bit of “several in depth studies show a significant percentage of voters being disenfranchised” translates to “Because….BAME people….disabled people….Rees-Mogg admitted cheating” ?

 

[The Philosopher]

Rees Mogg did admit what it was about. And because you see a chance for your ‘side’ to benefit from this, you’re arguing for it.

We should do everything we can to encourage voting, that’s all there is to it. Putting obstacles in the way puts some people off bothering.

We need voter ID and better election rules:

Eg, I spent £3 to ensure Corbyn became Labour leader.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

We need voter ID and better election rules:

Eg, I spent £3 to ensure Corbyn became Labour leader.

The Labour Party is free to draw up its own rules for electing the leader. If you really want to get into it, we could explore why trade unions are forced to do a postal ballot every time they want to poll for strike action.

We do not insist on postal voting for literally anything else. Almost like the legislation is designed to make it harder to strike. Being a working people’s champion that you are I’m sure you agree those rules need changing.

 

[duffer]

We need voter ID and better election rules:

Eg, I spent £3 to ensure Corbyn became Labour leader.

Did you spend £3 to enter a fake vote in the General Election? Thought not.

You haven't really thought this post through, have you.

 

[MalcSB]

The Labour Party is free to draw up its own rules for electing the leader. If you really want to get into it, we could explore why trade unions are forced to do a postal ballot every time they want to poll for strike action.

We do not insist on postal voting for literally anything else. Almost like the legislation is designed to make it harder to strike. Being a working people’s champion that you are I’m sure you agree those rules need changing.

Of course the legislation was designed to make it harder to strike.

Postal voting takes away the potential for intimidation that is inherent in a show of hands.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Of course the legislation was designed to make it harder to strike.

Postal voting takes away the potential for intimidation that is inherent in a show of hands.

Who said about doing shows of hands instead?

 

[MalcSB]

Who said about doing shows of hands instead?

That’s what used to happen. I have been involved in them myself,

How would you organise a free and fair, properly representational, vote then? WhatsApp?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

That’s what used to happen. I have been involved in them myself,

How would you organise a free and fair, properly representational, vote then? WhatsApp?

Anonymous ballots cast in person or even online, overseen by an independent body. You know, like how we manage in every other kind of vote.

 

[MalcSB]

Anonymous ballots cast in person or even online, overseen by an independent body. You know, like how we manage in every other kind of vote.

I don’t think the online approach was available in 1980. The postal ballot is easily organised by the TU themselves without requiring operating by a third body.

What sort of ID would be required?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I don’t think that sort of approach was available in 1980.

What sort of ID would be required?

Funnily enough I wasn’t suggesting going back in time to change the law in 1980.

 

[MalcSB]

Funnily enough I wasn’t suggesting going back in time to change the law in 1980.

You are being hugely critical of a process which was put in place for a reason at a point in time. The Labour Party was in power for 13 years 1997 - 2010 and could have changed things then, but preferred to concoct dodgy dossiers, sell off the gold reserves and fuck up private sector pensions.

will be interesting to see if this government of change changes this.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You are being hugely critical of a process which was put in place for a reason at a point in time. The Labour Party was in power for 13 years 1997 - 2010 and could have changed things then, but preferred to concoct dodgy dossiers, sell off the gold reserves and fuck up private sector pensions.

will be interesting to see if this government of change changes this.

Cracking down on unions is by extension a crack down on workers’ rights.

 

[Como]

 

[fernandopartridge]

I’ve read a lot of opinions on here.

Some that I struggle with:

“Voter ID shouldn’t be required” (but should be for driving, buying alcohol, getting a bank account hiring a bike, claiming benefits, renting a house, buying a house, (living generally)).

“Because….BAME people….disabled people….Rees-Mogg admitted cheating” (absolute nonsense)

Just plain weird.

In a parliamentary democracy where photo ID is not mandatory or provided free of charge, it is unreasonable to make voting contingent on photo ID.

 

[skybluetony176]

You are being hugely critical of a process which was put in place for a reason at a point in time. The Labour Party was in power for 13 years 1997 - 2010 and could have changed things then, but preferred to concoct dodgy dossiers, sell off the gold reserves and fuck up private sector pensions.

will be interesting to see if this government of change changes this.

All that’s true but they also oversaw the longest period of continuous growth since records began in the UK.

The Tories by contrast have overseen national debt grow by every measure, slow growth, crumbling infrastructure, crumbling services, lies lies and more lies, increase in the equality gap etc etc etc.

 

[The Philosopher]

In a parliamentary democracy where photo ID is not mandatory or provided free of charge, it is unreasonable to make voting contingent on photo ID.

Absolutely.

But where voter ID is available (absolutely) free of charge (ie, no stamp, no envelopes etc) then this freely available ID should be required.

Glad that’s cleared up.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

All that’s true but they also oversaw the longest period of continuous growth since records began in the UK.

The Tories by contrast have overseen national debt grow by every measure, slow growth, crumbling infrastructure, crumbling services, lies lies and more lies, increase in the equality gap etc etc etc.

They did have Covid

 

[The Philosopher]

All that’s true but they also oversaw the longest period of continuous growth since records began in the UK.

The Tories by contrast have overseen national debt grow by every measure, slow growth, crumbling infrastructure, crumbling services, lies lies and more lies, increase in the equality gap etc etc etc.

Yes, the Tories f-d up the final few years.

I’m a Tory office-holder and will tell you, absolutely, that ridiculous and embarrassing decisions have been made that make ordinary conservatives sick to the stomach.

Covid is a partial excuse but throwing money around like confetti was short sighted.

My 10p worth:

Every political party after a certain time tries to ape / outflank their rival.

Labour want to raise minimum wage? Tories in power raise it further to try to take the wind out if their sails. (Just a figurative example)

Other countries paying 70% pandemic furlough? Tories pay higher to not look mean.

Worried about being seen as an authoritarian state? Cut police and the ones in duty send to pride marches and kids meet and greet rather than catch baddies.

Worried about Nigel throwing stones at migrants from the cliffs of Dover? Promise to machine gun the dinghies but never actually do anything (you get the satirical point)

Tory party is split but trying to stay together (as is Labour)

I can genuinely see reform picking the working class trad vote from Labour and the blue collar conservatives and winning soon.

It’s a big reset.

 

[skybluetony176]

They did have Covid

It doesn’t matter Pete. The trends were set before Covid and ultimately Covid barely moved the needle on the trends. Brexit is a bigger issue and a continuing issue that continues to be a millstone around our necks.

 

[skybluetony176]

Yes, the Tories f-d up the final few years.

I’m a Tory office-holder and will tell you, absolutely, that ridiculous and embarrassing decisions have been made that make ordinary conservatives sick to the stomach.

Covid is a partial excuse but throwing money around like confetti was short sighted.

My 10p worth:

Every political party after a certain time tries to ape / outflank their rival.

Labour want to raise minimum wage? Tories in power raise it further to try to take the wind out if their sails. (Just a figurative example)

Other countries paying 70% pandemic furlough? Tories pay higher to not look mean.

Worried about being seen as an authoritarian state? Cut police and the ones in duty send to pride marches and kids meet and greet rather than catch baddies.

Worried about Nigel throwing stones at migrants from the cliffs of Dover? Promise to machine gun the dinghies but never actually do anything (you get the satirical point)

Tory party is split but trying to stay together (as is Labour)

I can genuinely see reform picking the working class trad vote from Labour and the blue collar conservatives and winning soon.

It’s a big reset.

They fucked up from day one. Austerity stifled growth and directly grew the debt by every measure as a consequence. Then there’s the cost on everything else. Education, NHS, policing, etc etc. basically every institution in the country broke down effecting each and every one of us individually negatively in some way. Unless you’re supper rich in which case you’ve had a great time.

 

[Sick Boy]

Yes, the Tories f-d up the final few years.

I’m a Tory office-holder and will tell you, absolutely, that ridiculous and embarrassing decisions have been made that make ordinary conservatives sick to the stomach.

Covid is a partial excuse but throwing money around like confetti was short sighted.

My 10p worth:

Every political party after a certain time tries to ape / outflank their rival.

Labour want to raise minimum wage? Tories in power raise it further to try to take the wind out if their sails. (Just a figurative example)

Other countries paying 70% pandemic furlough? Tories pay higher to not look mean.

Worried about being seen as an authoritarian state? Cut police and the ones in duty send to pride marches and kids meet and greet rather than catch baddies.

Worried about Nigel throwing stones at migrants from the cliffs of Dover? Promise to machine gun the dinghies but never actually do anything (you get the satirical point)

Tory party is split but trying to stay together (as is Labour)

I can genuinely see reform picking the working class trad vote from Labour and the blue collar conservatives and winning soon.

It’s a big reset.

Aren’t you on your third party at this point?

 

[The Philosopher]

 

[MalcSB]

They fucked up from day one. Austerity stifled growth and directly grew the debt by every measure as a consequence. Then there’s the cost on everything else. Education, NHS, policing, etc etc. basically every institution in the country broke down effecting each and every one of us individually negatively in some way. Unless you’re supper rich in which case you’ve had a great time.

Hasn’t Reeves changed the debt rules in her budget which will effectively increase it by £50bn. Good going in just 5 months.

 

[skybluetony176]

Hasn’t Reeves changed the debt rules in her budget which will effectively increase it by £50bn. Good going in just 5 months.

For balance

Didn’t Truss add £30bn in a couple of days from her mini budget with the real cost being much larger in reality due to it increasing the cost of borrowing for the government. IIRC the cost of government borrowing was still 1.1% higher 5 months later than it would have been without the experiment known as Trussonomics.

Labour has taken the measure to release much needed money to invest in much needed infrastructure. Why did Truss do it again? Tax breaks for the rich wasn’t it?

I would think even you can see the difference.

 

[The Philosopher]

They fucked up from day one. Austerity stifled growth and directly grew the debt by every measure as a consequence. Then there’s the cost on everything else. Education, NHS, policing, etc etc. basically every institution in the country broke down effecting each and every one of us individually negatively in some way. Unless you’re supper rich in which case you’ve had a great time.

The Tories took their “base” for granted.

The “super rich”, unfortunately ,can pretty much choose where to pay their taxes. It’s better to get a small percentage of a lot, than a bigger percentage of nothing.

The “rich” and aspirational class have been hit hardest.

 

[skybluetony176]

The Tories took their “base” for granted.

The “super rich”, unfortunately ,can pretty much choose where to pay their taxes. It’s better to get a small percentage of a lot, than a bigger percentage of nothing.

The “rich” and aspirational class have been hit hardest.

Sorry but this is just nonsense. The UK through the City of London and our overseas territories is the world’s biggest facilitator of tax avoidance and for that matter money laundering. We’re taking a small percentage by choice through deliberate design.

 

[shmmeee]

Did you spend £3 to enter a fake vote in the General Election? Thought not.

You haven't really thought this post through, have you.

He’s boasting about donating to his political opponents. I’m not sure he’s thought any of this through.

 

[MalcSB]

For balance

Didn’t Truss add £30bn in a couple of days from her mini budget with the real cost being much larger in reality due to it increasing the cost of borrowing for the government. IIRC the cost of government borrowing was still 1.1% higher 5 months later than it would have been without the experiment known as Trussonomics.

Labour has taken the measure to release much needed money to invest in much needed infrastructure. Why did Truss do it again? Tax breaks for the rich wasn’t it?

I would think even you can see the difference.

I can. 50bn is 66.7% greater than £30 bn

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

The Tories took their “base” for granted.

The “super rich”, unfortunately ,can pretty much choose where to pay their taxes. It’s better to get a small percentage of a lot, than a bigger percentage of nothing.

The “rich” and aspirational class have been hit hardest.

No it's not better. it's better to get them to pay their share and if they don't like it then use it to provide opportunities to others. You've fallen for that lie that we can't survive without the super rich.