USSR invades Ukraine. (56 Viewers)

skybluetony176 · Oct 4, 2023

Sick Boy said:
Nazi Symbols on Ukraine’s Front Lines Highlight Thorny Issues of History (Published 2023)

Troops’ use of patches bearing Nazi emblems risks fueling Russian propaganda and spreading imagery that the West has spent a half-century trying to eliminate.

www.nytimes.com

No doubt the ‘good’ type of nazi.

There is no good type of Nazi, as the Conservative Party Conference is aptly demonstrating. You can’t link everyone’s opinion and standards in the UK with theirs. Same as you can’t Ukrainians with one group of people in Ukraine. I don’t even believe that all Russians are aligned with Putin, I suspect and hope that there’s a silent majority just too scared to put their heads up. Just the same as I witnessed with my own eyes the sight of a united Ukraine preparing for a fight at the start of Russias invasion (part 2) I also witnessed Russians attempting to protest the invasion. Protests viciously put down by the madman you think Ukraine can have a genuine negotiation with. You haven’t even got to look at Russia’s behaviour against Ukraine to see that Putin isn’t a man you can negotiate with, just look at the way Russia treats Russia.

Deleted member 9744 · Oct 4, 2023

skybluetony176 said:
There is no good type of Nazi, as the Conservative Party Conference is aptly demonstrating. You can’t link everyone’s opinion and standards in the UK with theirs. Same as you can’t Ukrainians with one group of people in Ukraine. I don’t even believe that all Russians are aligned with Putin, I suspect and hope that there’s a silent majority just too scared to put their heads up. Just the same as I witnessed with my own eyes the sight of a united Ukraine preparing for a fight at the start of Russias invasion (part 2) I also witnessed Russians attempting to protest the invasion. Protests viciously put down by the madman you think Ukraine can have a genuine negotiation with. You haven’t even got to look at Russia’s behaviour against Ukraine to see that Putin isn’t a man you can negotiate with, just look at the way Russia treats Russia.

Of course not all Russians are not aligned with Putin! There will be as much variation in opinion as there is here on our Government. But in a totalitarian regime you have to be careful what you say and in Russia of course any dissent on the war in Ukraine is illegal will most likely land you in jail.

Sick Boy · Oct 4, 2023

skybluetony176 said:
I wasn’t and as you didn’t mention Saudi Arabia in your reply to my post I don’t know what else you were expecting me to think.

Although I suspect that our opinions on Saudi Arabia and should we be supplying them with military support are probably identical. I’m a solid no.

However you can’t compare the support of Ukraine with the support we give to Saudi Arabia. Giving concessions to Russia would be more inline with giving support to SA.

Well the country supplies them with military hardware and invites their leader over for a state visit. I haven’t seen you outraged about that and/or stuff in Yemen.

skybluetony176 · Oct 4, 2023

Sick Boy said:
Well the country supplies them with military hardware and invites their leader over for a state visit. I haven’t seen you outraged about that and/or stuff in Yemen.

You haven’t been paying enough attention then because whenever Saudi Arabia comes up in conversation on this forum, any thread, I’ve always consistently expressed the same opinion. We shouldn’t be supplying them arms.

Philosoraptor · Oct 4, 2023

skybluetony176 said:
You haven’t been paying enough attention then because whenever Saudi Arabia comes up in conversation on this forum, any thread, I’ve always consistently expressed the same opinion. We shouldn’t be supplying them arms.

I understand they are pretty proficient at cutting the hands off any arms.

Saudi Arabia is a whole new ball game.

Philosoraptor · Oct 4, 2023

Oh and this.

Some of the best stuff on TV.

PVA · Oct 4, 2023

Ukraine has bad guys too so we shouldn't send them aid is such a shit take.

Brighton Sky Blue · Oct 4, 2023

PVA said:
Ukraine has bad guys too so we shouldn't send them aid is such a shit take.

This thread is full of such takes to be honest. People thinly veiled wanting Russia to prevail and assuming those who oppose Ukraine ceding territory to be ‘cowboys’ wanting war for war’s sake.

Now even got some here repeating Lavrov and Putin’s ‘we need to get rid of the Nazis’ excuse.

Philosoraptor · Oct 4, 2023

It all comes down to if they shift them out of Ukraine or not.

Taking out the black sea headquarters was quite a bold move which will probably open up Ukraines trade again on the sea.

Russia's defences look very tight and organized around the Ukrainian counterattack but the size of the defences usually means they don't have troops to man everything.

PVA · Oct 4, 2023

Brighton Sky Blue said:
This thread is full of such takes to be honest. People thinly veiled wanting Russia to prevail and assuming those who oppose Ukraine ceding territory to be ‘cowboys’ wanting war for war’s sake.

Now even got some here repeating Lavrov and Putin’s ‘we need to get rid of the Nazis’ excuse.

Indeed. I think a few have swallowed the Russian disinformation campaign without even realising.

RegTheDonk · Oct 5, 2023

Brighton Sky Blue said:
This thread is full of such takes to be honest. People thinly veiled wanting Russia to prevail and assuming those who oppose Ukraine ceding territory to be ‘cowboys’ wanting war for war’s sake.

Now even got some here repeating Lavrov and Putin’s ‘we need to get rid of the Nazis’ excuse.

TBF I don't think anybody here wants Russia to prevail mate, people are just highlighting it's not as straight forward as backing one of two boxers in a ring. Lots of history and politics going on in the background, above my head to be honest, but I'm not blind to the fact that the longer it goes on support will eventually dry up.

Brighton Sky Blue · Oct 5, 2023

RegTheDonk said:
TBF I don't think anybody here wants Russia to prevail mate, people are just highlighting it's not as straight forward as backing one of two boxers in a ring. Lots of history and politics going on in the background, above my head to be honest, but I'm not blind to the fact that the longer it goes on support will eventually dry up.

I can think of one or two posters in particular who have no issue with a Russian victory.

Sick Boy · Oct 5, 2023

PVA said:
Indeed. I think a few have swallowed the Russian disinformation campaign without even realising.

Ahh yes the New York Times, the infamous mouth piece of Putin.

duffer · Oct 5, 2023

The idea that a clearly fascist state, Russia, is invading a neighbouring democracy to rid it of other fascists, is for the birds.

That said, there's no doubt that Ukraine has issues with the far-right too, as do a number of Eastern European countries, like Serbia. We're not exactly perfect either, and nor is the US.

It might be an endless battle for democracies this, squashing racism and fascism within, but it in no way justifies what Russia is doing in Ukraine. Surely this is obvious?

Brighton Sky Blue · Oct 5, 2023

duffer said:
The idea that a clearly fascist state, Russia, is invading a neighbouring democracy to rid it of other fascists, is for the birds.

That said, there's no doubt that Ukraine has issues with the far-right too, as do a number of Eastern European countries, like Serbia. We're not exactly perfect either, and nor is the US.

It might be an endless battle for democracies this, squashing racism and fascism within, but it in no way justifies what Russia is doing in Ukraine. Surely this is obvious?

Lavrov was asked to explain how a country with a Jewish president was also swarming with Nazis. He couldn’t, but it hasn’t stopped people on here trying to solve that problem for him.

PVA · Oct 5, 2023

Sick Boy said:
Ahh yes the New York Times, the infamous mouth piece of Putin.

You continue to miss the point.

Literally no one is denying that there are Nazis or bad guys in Ukraine.

Deleted member 9744 · Oct 5, 2023

RegTheDonk said:
TBF I don't think anybody here wants Russia to prevail mate, people are just highlighting it's not as straight forward as backing one of two boxers in a ring. Lots of history and politics going on in the background, above my head to be honest, but I'm not blind to the fact that the longer it goes on support will eventually dry up.

Agree with most of that but not sure about the first part.

Ian1779 · Oct 5, 2023

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I can think of one or two posters in particular who have no issue with a Russian victory.

I’m sorry but that’s bollocks.

PVA · Oct 5, 2023

RegTheDonk said:
people are just highlighting it's not as straight forward as backing one of two boxers in a ring.

It pretty much is though!

One country is there just existing. OK not the perfect model country and not squeaky clean. But just minding it's own business.

Then another country sends hundreds of thousands of troops over the border unprovoked with the intention of wiping them off the map.

Seems pretty clear cut to me!

PVA · Oct 5, 2023

Ian1779 said:
I’m sorry but that’s bollocks.

One poster has said they don't care who wins tbf.

Brighton Sky Blue · Oct 5, 2023

Ian1779 said:
I’m sorry but that’s bollocks.

It isn’t. I mean one has tried to argue that Russia were provoked into invading and multiple others think Ukraine should hand over territory to get some temporary peace.

The opinions in this thread are bizarre to say the least

skybluetony176 · Oct 5, 2023

I would think that Putin sees anyone suggesting that he can be negotiated with as a Russian victory. The Wests impotence dealing with him by repeatedly giving him an inch, he takes a mile, we give him another inch, he takes another mile rinse repeat rinse repeat etc etc clearly hasn’t worked. The Russian state is firmly linked to at least 14 murders in the UK over Putins time, some of which were born British citizens. Our answer has always been expel some minor employees at the Russian embassy, which Putin promptly reciprocates at the British embassy in Russia. It’s no wonder Putin thinks he can do what he likes without consequences, that’s exactly what he’s been allowed to do by the west. Doing the same things expecting different results is moronic, especially with Putin. History tells us that.

Grendel · Oct 5, 2023

Brighton Sky Blue said:
It isn’t. I mean one has tried to argue that Russia were provoked into invading and multiple others think Ukraine should hand over territory to get some temporary peace.

The opinions in this thread are bizarre to say the least

I don't know why you get so triggered by the provoke element - several US commentators have openly admitted this as a strategy

PVA · Oct 5, 2023

Grendel said:
I don't know why you get so triggered by the provoke element - several US commentators have openly admitted this as a strategy

So on the one hand peace must be sought immediately because the country is being destroyed and hundreds and thousands of Ukrainians are being killed, yet on the other hand this is exactly what they wanted?

Yet another bizarre contradiction.

Do you have a link to these US commentators saying this?

Grendel · Oct 5, 2023

PVA said:
So on the one hand peace must be sought immediately because the country is being destroyed and hundreds and thousands of Ukrainians are being killed, yet on the other hand this is exactly what they wanted?

Yet another bizarre contradiction.

Do you have a link to these US commentators saying this?

What are you babbling on about?

Its you that have put the US into the good guy camp not me

Brighton Sky Blue · Oct 5, 2023

Grendel said:
I don't know why you get so triggered by the provoke element - several US commentators have openly admitted this as a strategy

It’s not triggering just evidence of a pro Russian stance

PVA · Oct 5, 2023

Grendel said:
What are you babbling on about?

Its you that have put the US into the good guy camp not me

I'm saying you're contradicting yourself, again, and I'm asking for a link to these US commentators saying Russia was provoked.

Sick Boy · Oct 5, 2023

It’s weird that some countries matter more than others and in some instances it’s ok to supply a murderous regime with arms.

Grendel · Oct 5, 2023

PVA said:
I'm saying you're contradicting yourself, again, and I'm asking for a link to these US commentators saying Russia was provoked.

Well I have several links and of course have already repeatedly shared with people the Wolfowitz doctrine

I will share the links - though a quick Google search will I am sure reveal as such on the condition that you answer 3 other posters comments which you have consistently ignored but here is a snippet

"The United States did not initiate the European Union’s bidding war with Russia, but in February — as her notorious leaked phone conversation made clear — Victoria Nuland and her US colleagues on the ground did everything possible to drive the situation in a way that was absolutely certain to provoke a very costly crisis with Russia. Any sensible person with a high school–level understanding of Russian and Ukrainian history could have predicted both that Moscow would react strongly and dangerously to any attempt to destroy its influence in Kiev, and that the reality of the power balance on the ground would give it numerous opportunities to do so."

"The current invasion of Ukraine has renewed several long-standing debates about the relationship between the U.S. and Russia. Although many critics of Putin have argued that he would pursue an aggressive foreign policy in former Soviet Republics regardless of Western involvement, xxxx maintains his position that the U.S. is at fault for provoking him. I recently spoke with xxx by phone. During our conversation, which has been edited for length and clarity, we discussed whether the current war could have been prevented, whether it makes sense to think of Russia as an imperial power, and Putin’s ultimate plans for Ukraine."

I will share the rest of that when you agree to my conditions

However as you love a good blog whats your thoughts on this?

Why the US and Nato have long wanted Russia to attack Ukraine

Vladimir Putin’s decision to invade Ukraine has come at a substantial cost for Russia, with the country so far failing to achieve its military objectives and the Russian economy suffering under unp…

blogs.lse.ac.uk

Grendel · Oct 5, 2023

This article was written in 2008

https://eprints.lse.ac.uk/83147/1/US-Russian%20Relations_%20Some%20Historical%20Parallels%20_%20International%20Affairs%20at%20LSE.pdf

It shows the foreign policy at the time was steering into an inevitable conflict.

The first quote in my post above goes onto show that the actual administration of Obama failed to lessen the ideology and the second shows in several articles and books this is a deliberate policy

This article is a balanced one looking at both sides of the debate

Did NATO Expansion Really Cause Putin’s Invasion?

A seasoned diplomat considers this question in light of his own experience.

afsa.org

skybluetony176 · Oct 5, 2023

Ahh. The old Ukraine isn’t allowed the sovereignty to democratically move closer to one of its neighbours in case it upsets a mentalist in Russia argument.

It’s always especially ironic when its brexiteers who trot out that excuse. Why is one company allowed the sovereignty to move away from its neighbours and another isn’t?

Grendel · Oct 5, 2023

skybluetony176 said:
Ahh. The old Ukraine isn’t allowed the sovereignty to democratically move closer to one of its neighbours in case it upsets a mentalist in Russia argument.

It’s always especially ironic when its brexiteers who trot out that excuse. Why is one company allowed the sovereignty to move away from its neighbours and another isn’t?

Who has said they aren’t allowed their sovereignty- the irony is most of the far right chums in the uk who voted for brexit agree with you Tony - didn’t you vote Corbyn last time?

Grendel · Oct 5, 2023

Here’s your man Tony

Jeremy Corbyn urges west to stop arming Ukraine | Jeremy Corbyn | The Guardian

Ex-Labour leader also tells Beirut-based TV channel he was criticised over antisemitism because of stance on Palestine

amp.theguardian.com

Oh you agree with this guy

Boris Johnson and Liz Truss urge Rishi Sunak to send fighter jets to Ukraine | Ukraine | The Guardian

Former PMs stressed weapons should be sent urgently to Kyiv during debate in House of Commons

amp.theguardian.com

Looks like the inner Tory is returning Tony

skybluetony176 · Oct 5, 2023

Grendel said:
Who has said they aren’t allowed their sovereignty- the irony is most of the far right chums in the uk who voted for brexit agree with you Tony - didn’t you vote Corbyn last time?

You seem unbelievably inept on Ukrainian history so I’ll give you the short version. In 2014 a Russian stooge Yanukovych refused to sign the Ukraine-EU association agreement that he had been voted in on the understanding that he would sign which had been over a decade in the making and pursued through the ballot box. The people of Ukraine used their sovereign right to vote to have closer ties to the EU and move away from Russia. You either believe in their right to democracy or you don’t, you clearly don’t.

The rest of your post is just nonsense not least because I never suggested that a majority of brexit voters either did or didn’t support Ukraine. I merely pointed out the extra irony of Brexit voters such as yourself denying Ukraine their own freedom to choose their own destination in case it upsets Putin.

Grendel · Oct 5, 2023

skybluetony176 said:
You seem unbelievably inept on Ukrainian history so I’ll give you the short version. In 2014 a Russian stooge Yanukovych refused to sign the Ukraine-EU association agreement that he had been voted in on the understanding that he would sign which had been over a decade in the making and pursued through the ballot box. The people of Ukraine used their sovereign right to vote to have closer ties to the EU and move away from Russia. You either believe in their right to democracy or you don’t, you clearly don’t.

The rest of your post is just nonsense not least because I never suggested that a majority of brexit voters either did or didn’t support Ukraine. I merely pointed out the extra irony of Brexit voters such as yourself denying Ukraine their own freedom to choose their own destination in case it upsets Putin.

Tony why would I need a lesson from someone who literally quotes wiki all day long?

Yanukowitz was he elected democratically Tony? I suggest you read up on it. I think he was.

You mentioned Brexit Tony when a war encouraged by US foreign policy really has nothing to do with it

USSR invades Ukraine. (56 Viewers)

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