USSR invades Ukraine. (73 Viewers)

fatso · Oct 5, 2023

RegTheDonk said:
TBF I don't think anybody here wants Russia to prevail mate, people are just highlighting it's not as straight forward as backing one of two boxers in a ring. Lots of history and politics going on in the background, above my head to be honest, but I'm not blind to the fact that the longer it goes on support will eventually dry up.

Exactly.
Unfortunately we're dealing with some who only believe the BBC, and refuse to see (or haven't got the intelligence to see) anything other than good boy bad boy politics.

We are already seeing cracks in the west's support for ongoing military spending in Ukraine, and inevitably it's Ukraine that will be forced to the negotiating table to search for peace, it's just a matter of what do they run out of first, men or bullets.

It's easy to say you shouldn't ever negotiate with Putin, but those saying it are sitting comfortably in safety.

If your hoping for regime change, that's way more likely to happen in Washington than Moscow.

Philosoraptor · Oct 5, 2023

skybluetony176 said:
You seem unbelievably inept on Ukrainian history so I’ll give you the short version. In 2014 a Russian stooge Yanukovych refused to sign the Ukraine-EU association agreement that he had been voted in on the understanding that he would sign which had been over a decade in the making and pursued through the ballot box. The people of Ukraine used their sovereign right to vote to have closer ties to the EU and move away from Russia. You either believe in their right to democracy or you don’t, you clearly don’t.

The rest of your post is just nonsense not least because I never suggested that a majority of brexit voters either did or didn’t support Ukraine. I merely pointed out the extra irony of Brexit voters such as yourself denying Ukraine their own freedom to choose their own destination in case it upsets Putin.

Kiev, as well as being the chicken capital of the world was also the capital of Russia for a good few hundred years.

Europe has been redrawn so many times over the years.

Deleted member 9744 · Oct 5, 2023

fatso said:
Exactly.
Unfortunately we're dealing with some who only believe the BBC, and refuse to see (or haven't got the intelligence to see) anything other than good boy bad boy politics.

We are already seeing cracks in the west's support for ongoing military spending in Ukraine, and inevitably it's Ukraine that will be forced to the negotiating table to search for peace, it's just a matter of what do they run out of first, men or bullets.

It's easy to say you shouldn't ever negotiate with Putin, but those saying it are sitting comfortably in safety.

If your hoping for regime change, that's way more likely to happen in Washington than Moscow.

I see the BBC comment. Again which news channel do you recommend? GB News? RT?

PVA · Oct 5, 2023

Grendel said:
Well I have several links and of course have already repeatedly shared with people the Wolfowitz doctrine

I will share the links - though a quick Google search will I am sure reveal as such on the condition that you answer 3 other posters comments which you have consistently ignored but here is a snippet

"The United States did not initiate the European Union’s bidding war with Russia, but in February — as her notorious leaked phone conversation made clear — Victoria Nuland and her US colleagues on the ground did everything possible to drive the situation in a way that was absolutely certain to provoke a very costly crisis with Russia. Any sensible person with a high school–level understanding of Russian and Ukrainian history could have predicted both that Moscow would react strongly and dangerously to any attempt to destroy its influence in Kiev, and that the reality of the power balance on the ground would give it numerous opportunities to do so."

"The current invasion of Ukraine has renewed several long-standing debates about the relationship between the U.S. and Russia. Although many critics of Putin have argued that he would pursue an aggressive foreign policy in former Soviet Republics regardless of Western involvement, xxxx maintains his position that the U.S. is at fault for provoking him. I recently spoke with xxx by phone. During our conversation, which has been edited for length and clarity, we discussed whether the current war could have been prevented, whether it makes sense to think of Russia as an imperial power, and Putin’s ultimate plans for Ukraine."

I will share the rest of that when you agree to my conditions

However as you love a good blog whats your thoughts on this?

Why the US and Nato have long wanted Russia to attack Ukraine

Vladimir Putin’s decision to invade Ukraine has come at a substantial cost for Russia, with the country so far failing to achieve its military objectives and the Russian economy suffering under unp…

blogs.lse.ac.uk

You were doing so well until you included quotes from Mearsheimer.

Is that why you blanked his name out, hoping I wouldn't noticed you'd included quotes from another crank?

Edit to add that crank may be a touch harsh on Mearsheimer, but at best he's a Russian apologist.

PVA · Oct 5, 2023

Deleted member 9744 said:
I see the BBC comment. Again which news channel do you recommend? GB News? RT?

He recommends listening to a convicted paedophile that appears on RT. Genuinely.

Brighton Sky Blue · Oct 5, 2023

Grendel said:
Who has said they aren’t allowed their sovereignty- the irony is most of the far right chums in the uk who voted for brexit agree with you Tony - didn’t you vote Corbyn last time?

Well you think they should be giving up their land to appease Putin do you not?

Grendel · Oct 5, 2023

PVA said:
You were doing so well until you included quotes from Mearsheimer.

Is that why you blanked his name out, hoping I wouldn't noticed you'd included quotes from another crank?

Edit to add that crank may be a touch harsh on Mearsheimer, but at best he's a Russian apologist.

Well no as I wondered if you could work it out

Ah he is a Russian apologist is he? Is that because the US government label him that........well I never

Grendel · Oct 5, 2023

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Well you think they should be giving up their land to appease Putin do you not?

No I have never said that it is their right to defend themselves but without the West wasting money - or at least just let the US waste their own resources and not ours

PVA · Oct 5, 2023

Grendel said:
Well no as I wondered if you could work it out

Ah he is a Russian apologist is he? Is that because the US government label him that........well I never

You wondered if I could copy and paste some text into Google? Guess I passed the test.

Having just reminded myself of some of Mearsheimer's takes and looked at the channels he appears on I've just downgraded him back to crank.

Grendel · Oct 5, 2023

Another crank I am sure

The spectre of Wolfowitz

A controversial 1992 defence strategy has helped shape the US foreign policy mindset of containing Russia in its own backyard

www.ussc.edu.au

RegTheDonk · Oct 5, 2023

PVA said:
It pretty much is though!

One country is there just existing. OK not the perfect model country and not squeaky clean. But just minding it's own business.

Then another country sends hundreds of thousands of troops over the border unprovoked with the intention of wiping them off the map.

Seems pretty clear cut to me!

To us, yes it's black and white. Putin and his thugs are criminals, no question.

To the people who have a more vested interest in the region, be it Russian decedents, pro western politicians, communist sympathisers, far right gangsters, foreign powers ... there are motives for and against we probably just don't grasp.

Grendel · Oct 5, 2023

PVA said:
You wondered if I could copy and paste some text into Google? Guess I passed the test.

Having just reminded myself of some of Mearsheimer's takes and looked at the channels he appears on I've just downgraded him back to crank.

Well you would as he does not support your strident worshipping of US foreign policy - its of course what the US do. Given Wolfowitz and Bush openly persued the act of provocation I assume they were cranks as well. I am sure Victoria Nuland is a crank. I am sure you would have dribbled over McCarthy if you were around in the 50's and believed anyone challenging the US was a communist. He wasn't of course a crank.

I am sure Ted Carpenter is a crank

https://www.cato.org/commentary/us-nato-helped-trigger-ukraine-war-its-not-siding-putin-admit-it

Oh look another crank

Ukraine war follows decades of warnings that NATO expansion into Eastern Europe could provoke Russia

Lost in the outrage over Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is the fact that many in the West have long warned that widespread NATO expansion into Eastern Europe could spark just such a conflict.

theconversation.com

fatso · Oct 5, 2023

Deleted member 9744 said:
I see the BBC comment. Again which news channel do you recommend? GB News? RT?

I don't recommend any particular news channel as they all appear to have their own bias.
I tend to listen more to interviews from people on the ground and the speeches of Biden, Sunak and Putin etc and from reports from those in the intelligence community.

Grendel · Oct 5, 2023

Now Dubya - he's no crank is he

Bush backs Ukraine and Georgia for Nato membership

George Bush this morning said he "strongly supported" Ukraine's attempt to join Nato, and warned he would not allow Russia to veto its membership bid

www.theguardian.com

SBT · Oct 5, 2023

fatso said:
I don't recommend any particular news channel as they all appear to have their own bias.
I tend to listen more to interviews from people on the ground and the speeches of Biden, Sunak and Putin etc and from reports from those in the intelligence community.

Who’s conducting and publishing the interviews with the people on the ground?

Do you arrange one-on-one meetings with your intelligence community sources, or are you intercepting their comms covertly?

fatso · Oct 5, 2023

SBT said:
Who’s conducting and publishing the interviews with the people on the ground?

Do you arrange one-on-one meetings with your intelligence community sources, or are you intercepting their comms covertly?

Don't worry mate, they won't bother a thick c**t like you

Grendel · Oct 5, 2023

Shocking or is a big whopper?

Lets boycott the chain

Ukraine war: Burger King still open in Russia despite pledge to exit

The owner of the fast-food brand says there are "no new updates" on its pledge to leave Russia.

www.bbc.co.uk

fatso · Oct 5, 2023

skybluetony176 said:
Let’s negotiate with this guy.

Marina Ovsyannikova: Anti-war Russian journalist sentenced in absentia

Maria Ovsyannikova, who protested live on air against the invasion of Ukraine, gets more than 8 years in jail.

www.bbc.co.uk

He seems a reasonable well balanced man.

Terrible, just like the treatment dished out to Julian Assange and Lauri Love and the "inmates" housed for years at Guantanamo Bay, some of whome never even faced any charges!

There's aren't any good boys in this global fuck up.

skybluetony176 · Oct 5, 2023

PVA said:
He recommends listening to a convicted paedophile that appears on RT. Genuinely.

And a guy who’s repeatedly said Russias victory was assured in the next 24 hours.

Grendel · Oct 5, 2023

Philosorapter said:
Kiev, as well as being the chicken capital of the world was also the capital of Russia for a good few hundred years.

Europe has been redrawn so many times over the years.

Tony will be in a tailspin

He needs to get his Wiki out again to check or I am sure he has a great great cousin who visited there once

PVA · Oct 5, 2023

fatso said:
I don't recommend any particular news channel as they all appear to have their own bias.
I tend to listen more to interviews from people on the ground and the speeches of Biden, Sunak and Putin etc and from reports from those in the intelligence community.

And convicted paedophiles?

skybluetony176 · Oct 5, 2023

fatso said:
Terrible, just like the treatment dished out to Julian Assange and Lauri Love and the "inmates" housed for years at Guantanamo Bay, some of whome never even faced any charges!

There's aren't any good boys in this global fuck up.

I struggle to have sympathy with Assange if I’m being honest. He seemed complicit in orchestrating that entire scenario himself because when he did finally face justice the charges were dropped due to a lack of evidence. Plus there’s something wrong with anyone who does a dirty protest.

Guantanamo Bay is very obviously a huge miscarriage of justice by what should be western standards. It’s more akin to something you’d expect Putin to do and something I find hugely embarrassing as a westerner and angry about as a human being. However neither issue exonerates Putin, he’s still a man that can’t be negotiated in good faith and can’t be held to his word.

Grendel · Oct 5, 2023

PVA said:
And convicted paedophiles?

Is Merscheimer a convicted paedophile?

How about Ted Carpenter?

Anatol Lieven?

Robert Wade

Or are these just Reds under the bed?

PVA · Oct 5, 2023

Grendel said:
Oh look another crank

Ukraine war follows decades of warnings that NATO expansion into Eastern Europe could provoke Russia

Lost in the outrage over Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is the fact that many in the West have long warned that widespread NATO expansion into Eastern Europe could spark just such a conflict.

theconversation.com

That guy needs to make his mind up.

"The war that Putin launched against Ukraine on Feb. 24, 2022, was unprovoked. NATO presented no immediate threat to Russia."

Grendel · Oct 5, 2023

PVA said:
That guy needs to make his mind up.

"The war that Putin launched against Ukraine on Feb. 24, 2022, was unprovoked. NATO presented no immediate threat to Russia."

Oddly he looks at both sides of the debate - look at this

Biden’s CIA director, William J. Burns, has been warning about the provocative effect of NATO expansion on Russia since 1995. That’s when Burns, then a political officer in the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, reported to Washington that “hostility to early NATO expansion is almost universally felt across the domestic political spectrum here.”

Don't tell me - Willy is a crank

skybluetony176 · Oct 5, 2023

Ahh. The old Ukraine can’t operate its sovereign right to join NATO with the backing of its population because it might upset Putin argument.

Fact is if Putin was a better neighbour it’s neighbours who managed to stay neutral all though the highs and lows of the Cold War wouldn’t now be clambering to join NATO.

PVA · Oct 5, 2023

Grendel said:
Oddly he looks at both sides of the debate - look at this

Biden’s CIA director, William J. Burns, has been warning about the provocative effect of NATO expansion on Russia since 1995. That’s when Burns, then a political officer in the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, reported to Washington that “hostility to early NATO expansion is almost universally felt across the domestic political spectrum here.”

Don't tell me - Willy is a crank

Are you ok? You seem to be malfunctioning.

Sick Boy · Oct 5, 2023

@PVA Saudi Arabia, goodies or baddies?

Grendel · Oct 5, 2023

Ah of course - the challenges come and the attempt to debate the US foreign policy and its direct contribution to this war is over and now its "you seem to be malfunctioning"

Next it will be a bang on the head or a silly GIF no doubt

McCarthy would have been your hero

Grendel · Oct 5, 2023

Sick Boy said:
@PVA Saudi Arabia, goodies or baddies?

I think we have established he is incapable of an actual discussion

PVA · Oct 5, 2023

Sick Boy said:
@PVA Saudi Arabia, goodies or baddies?

'baddies'.

Next.

Grendel · Oct 5, 2023

PVA said:
'baddies'.

Next.

Oh - look whose on the baddies side

U.S. approves massive arms sale to Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates to counter Iran

The Biden administration has approved two massive arms sales to Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates to help them defend against Iran.

www.pbs.org

PVA · Oct 5, 2023

Grendel said:
Ah of course - the challenges come and the attempt to debate the US foreign policy and its direct contribution to this war is over and now its "you seem to be malfunctioning"

Next it will be a bang on the head or a silly GIF no doubt

McCarthy would have been your hero

It's just you seem to be accusing me of calling everyone a crank when I've directed it at about 3 people. Making post after post making the same point over and over. Just a bit weird that's all.

Grendel · Oct 5, 2023

PVA said:
It's just you seem to be accusing me of calling everyone a crank when I've directed it at about 3 people. Making post after post making the same point over and over. Just a bit weird that's all.

Oh so you accept there is significant evidence from experienced figures that this war has been designed by the US - or at least its an established theory from some respected people?

PVA · Oct 5, 2023

Grendel said:
Oh - look whose on the baddies side

U.S. approves massive arms sale to Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates to counter Iran

The Biden administration has approved two massive arms sales to Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates to help them defend against Iran.

www.pbs.org

Right.

And in other relevant news grass is green and Doja Cat is current UK number one.

USSR invades Ukraine. (73 Viewers)

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