Wasps Coventry move vs. CCFC Northampton move (1 Viewer)

[Calista]

I’m really not under-estimating the effect of a sports club moving. The switch to Sixfields had a massive impact on me and my family, and broke a tradition and a feeling which we haven’t really managed to get back. In an ideal world every club would stay close to its roots, and every fan who sees their team move away is a small tragedy to be avoided if at all possible. I totally get the people objecting to the Wasps move on principle, but I genuinely feel it’s not clear-cut. Not every move is the same.

CCFC – had a perfectly good (indeed superb) home stadium, and moved to something utterly unsuitable as part of an attempt to gain business advantage
Wasps – had a stadium which couldn’t support their status as major side hosting big European matches, and moved to venue which meets that need perfectly

CCFC – unequivocally represents the city of Coventry
Wasps – historically had its roots in London, but moved out well over a decade ago. Many people have quite happily advocated going 30 miles (or more) back, which apparently would not trouble their conscience regarding the people in Wycombe. When it’s pointed out that Wasps tried and failed for years to find a site in London, some people say they should have gone to Upton Park in the East End – try telling that to the Buckinghamshire brigade. Let’s face it, “the London area” is pretty meaningless in this context.

CCFC – met with fury and vociferous opposition from at least 80% of fans when the move was announced, and suffered a disastrous loss of fan base with large numbers still alienated
Wasps – attracted a lot of criticism, and petitions from a proportion of supporters. But large numbers of fans (I’m not in a position to say the majority, but it could easily be) have embraced the move with enthusiasm and excitement. A quick read of the Wasps forum reveals a lot of genuine support for the move and a liking for the new venue. What’s more, the move appears to have generated a lot of interest and support from people in the Midlands including kids who already count themselves as Wasps supporters. Are we going to be sanctimonious enough to tell them that their enjoyment is all wrong?

Obviously CRFC are affected too, but they seem to have taken it quite philosophically and they are looking to pick up increased interest and support because of the new high profile of the sport in the area. It’s a moral minefield, and if (say) Northampton RFC had moved to the Ricoh just to get a bigger venue that would have been a disgrace. But the bottom line is that Coventry didn’t pinch another town’s club – a major club with a big problem chose Coventry as its home and is prospering and giving pleasure to a lot of rugby fans as a result. It’s a fact whether you like it or not, and yes I welcome it despite my discomfort about the innocent people who have lost out.

 

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[Grendel]

Funny you can convince anything is ok if you want to

 

[Nick]

Another justification post. Surely moving a team is moving a team? Only this is for good rather than temporary?

Why didn't Wasps just play their big games at other stadiums like they did before?

Do people really need to ask others how they should feel and what they should think?

ie Moving Coventry is wrong but I have to check with Wasps fans to see if it is wrong if it happens to them?

I take it the people who welcome the wasps move won't moan if CCFC move to a different city and pull in bigger crowds than they get now with a bigger % of matchday revenues and a share of other revenues then?

Again, it seems it is mostly the hardcore anti sisu / anti Sixfields who seem to be so passionate about Wasps now, it is really strange. Morals and principles that were so strong and people were so eager to tell everybody about suddenly change because of the shape of a ball.

 

[Calista]

Funny you can convince anything is ok if you want to

Try answering some of the points - they are genuinely made, unlike the lazy "franchising - booo!" argument. I wouldn't presume to tell the Wasps fans where they should play, and a very large proportion of them love the Coventry move.

Since you know better than them what they should do, please inform them where they should really play. Wycombe? Upton Park? "The London area"? Tough isn't it? I'm not expecting an answer tbh.

 

[Calista]

Another justification post. Surely moving a team is moving a team? Only this is for good rather than temporary?

Why didn't Wasps just play their big games at other stadiums like they did before?

Do people really need to ask others how they should feel and what they should think?

ie Moving Coventry is wrong but I have to check with Wasps fans to see if it is wrong if it happens to them?

I take it the people who welcome the wasps move won't moan if CCFC move to a different city and pull in bigger crowds than they get now with a bigger % of matchday revenues and a share of other revenues then?

Again, it seems it is mostly the hardcore anti sisu / anti Sixfields who seem to be so passionate about Wasps now, it is really strange. Morals and principles that were so strong and people were so eager to tell everybody about suddenly change because of the shape of a ball.

See my reply to Grendel. I really believe what I've written, and phrased it in a way that fully respected the alternative point of view. Didn't I?

 

[Nick]

Try answering some of the points - they are genuinely made, unlike the lazy "franchising - booo!" argument. I wouldn't presume to tell the Wasps fans where they should play, and a very large proportion of them love the Coventry move.

Since you know better than them what they should do, please inform them where they should really play. Wycombe? Upton Park? "The London area"? Tough isn't it? I'm not expecting an answer tbh.

London wasps should play in London or very close to it shouldn't they? People go on about land prices in London, so what?

You won't mind if ccfc move 80 miles then to get a bigger fan base where they don't have a pro team and land is cheaper?

They rented their stadium, it wasn't full every week was it? They moaned about match day revenue too.

Doesn't sound too far from us does it?

People were demanding fix football for allowing us to be moved, they now do their best to justify and welcome another team to be moved.

Genuine question, if sisu weren't here but the wasps move happened, would people be so keen on it?

 

[Calista]

London wasps should play in London or very close to it shouldn't they? People go on about land prices in London, so what?

You won't mind if ccfc move 80 miles then to get a bigger fan base where they don't have a pro team and land is cheaper?

They rented their stadium, it wasn't full every week was it? They moaned about match day revenue too.

Doesn't sound too far from us does it?

People were demanding fix football for allowing us to be moved, they now do their best to justify and welcome another team to be moved.

Genuine question, if sisu weren't here but the wasps move happened, would people be so keen on it?

Nick – really not intending this to be confrontational but you've totally misrepresented me. I said in my post that it’s complicated and that I respect the alternative view.

They only put the “London” into their name as a branding thing in 1999, but it never caught on especially after they moved out 30 miles to Buckinghamshire, where their attendances greatly increased – presumably that was franchising?

I guess anywhere in “the London area” would satisfy your conscience. Let’s say they built a massive new place out somewhere in Kent because of land prices. You’d happily sell that to a young supporter in High Wycombe, explaining to him that it’s got the label “London” on it so that’s OK, even though they aren’t London Wasps any more and it takes twice as long to get to it as the Ricoh? I’m just saying it’s not easy

Wasps were in trouble and (admittedly not knowing everything about it) they appear to have found a solution that their fans are largely happy with.

 

[SBT]

Do people really need to ask others how they should feel and what they should think?

I love this - Nick openly sneering at the idea of gauging the opinion of others before forming your own.

Hey, maybe we should have a poll!

 

[BrakesFan]

I wouldn't presume to tell the Wasps fans where they should play

I think that's the 'nail on the head' moment. My view throughout is that I have very strong opinions on football, and how our game should be run, but I wouldn't presume to tell rugby people how to run their game (or ice hockey, or basketball, or tiddlywinks). Similarly when some of my Facebook friends post pictures that make out that 'real men' watch rugby and football is for girls I can laugh it off because their opinion is irrelevant to me and to the game of football.

The idea that if you condemn Sisu and MK Dons but not Wasps then you are a hypocrite is quite frankly bullshit.

 

[EastLancsCov]

Norman you're wasting your time with some/most on here.
The CCFC move to Northampton and Wasps move to Coventry were for completely different reasons as you stated.
If they were to read the Wasps forum, they'd see most Wasps fans understood the move and are on board and enjoying their team being on the up.
Would Wasps fans say they same if they read our forum?
Let them get on with improving their club and people on here worry about our dying one.
Altogether now.... "Franchise.....booooooo!!"

 

[Nick]

Norman you're wasting your time with some/most on here.
The CCFC move to Northampton and Wasps move to Coventry were for completely different reasons as you stated.
If they were to read the Wasps forum, they'd see most Wasps fans understood the move and are on board and enjoying their team being on the up.
Would Wasps fans say they same if they read our forum?
Let them get on with improving their club and people on here worry about our dying one.
Altogether now.... "Franchise.....booooooo!!"

I thought franchising was bad though? It seemed to be when we were in Northampton and our fans we getting close to AFC Wimbledon to show "solidarity"? Yes you may mock with the boos, but just think back to what people were saying while we were gone?

I think Jan's words kind of summed it up about not giving a shit about the Wasps fans, at least he can make the games.

 

[Nick]

I think that's the 'nail on the head' moment. My view throughout is that I have very strong opinions on football, and how our game should be run, but I wouldn't presume to tell rugby people how to run their game (or ice hockey, or basketball, or tiddlywinks). Similarly when some of my Facebook friends post pictures that make out that 'real men' watch rugby and football is for girls I can laugh it off because their opinion is irrelevant to me and to the game of football.

The idea that if you condemn Sisu and MK Dons but not Wasps then you are a hypocrite is quite frankly bullshit.

Nobody has said "Oh but you have to say Wasps are nasty", it is from being in complete polar opposites in views, "morals","principles" just because the shape of the ball has changed?

 

[Nick]

I love this - Nick openly sneering at the idea of gauging the opinion of others before forming your own.

Hey, maybe we should have a poll!

It isn't really "sneering" is it? It is just asking do people really need to ask others what they should think? Is that why people thought Thorn was a great manager because they read / heard what somebody else said rather than actually thinking about it for themselves?

Surely when people are so eager to tell everybody else about how they have principles and morals they would be able to think for themselves?

 

[EastLancsCov]

I thought franchising was bad though? It seemed to be when we were in Northampton and our fans we
getting close to AFC Wimbledon to show "solidarity"? Yes you may mock with the boos, but just think back to what people were saying while we were gone?

I think Jan's words kind of summed it up about not giving a shit about the Wasps fans, at least he can make the games.

You still don't seem to have grasped why Wasps needed to move. But don't let that stop you squeezing 'franchise' into your posts.

 

[Nick]

You still don't seem to have grasped why Wasps needed to move. But don't let that stop you squeezing 'franchise' into your posts.

Why did they need to move?

 

[Grendel]

You still don't seem to have grasped why Wasps needed to move. But don't let that stop you squeezing 'franchise' into your posts.

According to their CEO they would have gone bankrupt without 365 days a year revenue.

Sound familiar?

 

[Moff]

They only put the “London” into their name as a branding thing in 1999, but it never caught on especially after they moved out 30 miles to Buckinghamshire, where their attendances greatly increased – presumably that was franchising?

Yes they only put London brnading into their name in 1999, but lets conveniently forget the previous 100 odd years they played in London shall we.

Their move to Wycombe was wrong and unpopular, and to all extents they were looking to relocate back to London, north London that is, their traditional base.

That is until Richardson decided he would just uproot them elsewhere. Some people can justify that for a club who just keep on moving to satisfy their needs, and I wonder how many of these people would feel the same if SISU kept doing that with us. Personally I think that is hypocritical.

 

[SBT]

It isn't really "sneering" is it? It is just asking do people really need to ask others what they should think? Is that why people thought Thorn was a great manager because they read / heard what somebody else said rather than actually thinking about it for themselves?

Surely when people are so eager to tell everybody else about how they have principles and morals they would be able to think for themselves?

Seriously, for someone who has such a bizarre opposition to actually gauging the opinion of the parties involved before forming your own beliefs, do you not find your inability to communicate in anything other than rhetorical questions a little strange?

 

[Calista]

Yes they only put London brnading into their name in 1999, but lets conveniently forget the previous 100 odd years they played in London shall we.

Their move to Wycombe was wrong and unpopular, and to all extents they were looking to relocate back to London, north London that is, their traditional base.

That is until Richardson decided he would just uproot them elsewhere. Some people can justify that for a club who just keep on moving to satisfy their needs, and I wonder how many of these people would feel the same if SISU kept doing that with us. Personally I think that is hypocritical.

This is 100% the problem! Moving sports clubs is a terrible idea, and I hate it.

In this case, once the Wycombe move was made (12 years ago I think), it was always going to end in tears. They moved to a pretty ropey site which isn’t in keeping with their status, but started building up a completely new local fan base. 80% of their Season Ticket holders are from Bucks. One person who doesn’t like the move to Coventry said “One of the great things about Adams Park is the number of kids you get there. If they're playing rugby with their school in the morning, can they get up to Coventry in time for a game?”. The local paper (after Wycombe District Council rejected plans for a new stadium) said in 2011 “Wasps should not be allowed to leave Wycombe. They have brought great value to this area and are a feather in all of our caps”.

What I’m getting at here is that Wasps couldn’t move from Wycombe (including to London as everybody keeps telling them to do) without doing tremendous damage to that town and to their local fans. Yet the consensus, including reluctantly among their supporters, is that they HAD to move or go bust.

In the event, they’ve come to Coventry, and if the fans had united in revolt against that I guarantee I’d have backed them in whatever small way I could. BUT THEY DIDN’T. The opposition was very muted, and the response from so many of them has been huge enthusiasm. So what gives anyone else the right to tell them what’s good for them?

It’s a moral maze, not a black and white issue. Like I say, I’m completely against moving sports clubs around the country. And I think how bad it is depends on things like …

1) The extent to which a club clearly represents a specific place
2) Whether a suitable venue already exists or could be built in that place
3) (Most importantly of all) The extent to which the club’s own supporters object to - or welcome - the move

If you ask those questions about the Wasps you get some VERY awkward answers for the reasons I’ve already stated. Their move to the Ricoh hurts a lot of people, but no more so than any other option they had. And in my view, the enthusiasm (not to mention spending) they’ve already generated goes a long way to compensate for that. Coventry is a fortunate beneficiary, even if not everyone likes it.

On the other hand, if you apply the 3 tests to the Sky Blues it’s quite straightforward for me - there’s no way I could support a move to (say) Nuneaton. And don’t get me started on Northampton again

I totally agree with your principles on this, but (for the very reason you stated about the original Wycombe move) I think those principles are impossible to apply. If you still think I’m hypocritical so be it.

Btw you were right about my “branding” point – it was bollux and I can see that today

 

[Grendel]

This is 100% the problem! Moving sports clubs is a terrible idea, and I hate it.

In this case, once the Wycombe move was made (12 years ago I think), it was always going to end in tears. They moved to a pretty ropey site which isn’t in keeping with their status, but started building up a completely new local fan base. 80% of their Season Ticket holders are from Bucks. One person who doesn’t like the move to Coventry said “One of the great things about Adams Park is the number of kids you get there. If they're playing rugby with their school in the morning, can they get up to Coventry in time for a game?”. The local paper (after Wycombe District Council rejected plans for a new stadium) said in 2011 “Wasps should not be allowed to leave Wycombe. They have brought great value to this area and are a feather in all of our caps”.

What I’m getting at here is that Wasps couldn’t move from Wycombe (including to London as everybody keeps telling them to do) without doing tremendous damage to that town and to their local fans. Yet the consensus, including reluctantly among their supporters, is that they HAD to move or go bust.

In the event, they’ve come to Coventry, and if the fans had united in revolt against that I guarantee I’d have backed them in whatever small way I could. BUT THEY DIDN’T. The opposition was very muted, and the response from so many of them has been huge enthusiasm. So what gives anyone else the right to tell them what’s good for them?

It’s a moral maze, not a black and white issue. Like I say, I’m completely against moving sports clubs around the country. And I think how bad it is depends on things like …

1) The extent to which a club clearly represents a specific place
2) Whether a suitable venue already exists or could be built in that place
3) (Most importantly of all) The extent to which the club’s own supporters object to - or welcome - the move

If you ask those questions about the Wasps you get some VERY awkward answers for the reasons I’ve already stated. Their move to the Ricoh hurts a lot of people, but no more so than any other option they had. And in my view, the enthusiasm (not to mention spending) they’ve already generated goes a long way to compensate for that. Coventry is a fortunate beneficiary, even if not everyone likes it.

On the other hand, if you apply the 3 tests to the Sky Blues it’s quite straightforward for me - there’s no way I could support a move to (say) Nuneaton. And don’t get me started on Northampton again

I totally agree with your principles on this, but (for the very reason you stated about the original Wycombe move) I think those principles are impossible to apply. If you still think I’m hypocritical so be it.

Btw you were right about my “branding” point – it was bollux and I can see that today

There is no evidence to suggest their supporters wanted or felt they had to move - show me some evidence to support that

Your spinning and constant wasps justification postings are very strange.

 

[Calista]

There is no evidence to suggest their supporters wanted or felt they had to move - show me some evidence to support that

Your spinning and constant wasps justification postings are very strange.

Certainly. Robert Kitson in the Guardian (in an article entitled “Wasps supporters accept move to Coventry without Adams Park protest”, 12[SUP]th[/SUP] October 2014):-
“There also seemed to be a collective acceptance there are no financially viable alternatives to Wasps’ impending switch to the Ricoh Arena.”

Of course, I wasn’t there, so I’m taking the reporter’s word for it. Similar things have been said in other articles. As I made clear, if the Wasps fans had staged a mass protest or something, I would have been totally against them moving to the Ricoh.

No spin or strangeness on my part, it’s CCFC I’m concerned about. I really believe our best hope is to work with Wasps, so it frustrates me that some people are letting the “franchise” stigma unnecessarily get in the way of that.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

Either you agree with it or you don't.

Effectively what everyone is saying is that they would reluctantly accept and support CCFC moving 90 miles away if they could make a strong enough financial case for it. Personally I wouldn't continue my support but some clearly think this would be acceptable if the reasons were good enough.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

You still don't seem to have grasped why Wasps needed to move. But don't let that stop you squeezing 'franchise' into your posts.

Another myth swallowed by people on here, they could have negotiated a rental deal at one of the many suitable stadiums in London if Adams Park wasn't big enough. Or they could have cut their budget accordingly to make Adams Park financially viable for them, exactly like we've had to do because of renting at the Ricoh.

 

[lewys33]

You can sit there justifying it all you want, but in my opinion both moves are/were wrong. How can you agree with one but not the other?!

You can also sit there and try and say the situations are completely different, but I think they are a lot more alike than what you think. It is of course all down to perception.

CCFC were (and still are) in a stadium they do not own. Much like Wasps. The situation for CCFC was unviable (rent too high, income issues). Much like Wasps (European games).

So, based on that - Should we go and buy Barnsley's ground? After all it is the ONLY WAY the club is going to become viable, and there isn't a suitable site within Coventry (much like wasps and London as you pointed out).

 

[Nick]

Another myth swallowed by people on here, they could have negotiated a rental deal at one of the many suitable stadiums in London if Adams Park wasn't big enough. Or they could have cut their budget accordingly to make Adams Park financially viable for them, exactly like we've had to do because of renting at the Ricoh.

Pretty much sums it up doesn't it?

 

[Nick]

Either you agree with it or you don't.

Effectively what everyone is saying is that they would reluctantly accept and support CCFC moving 90 miles away if they could make a strong enough financial case for it. Personally I wouldn't continue my support but some clearly think this would be acceptable if the reasons were good enough.

Also my point, but when asking it I get called a WUM. Perfectly valid question though.

 

[Calista]

Either you agree with it or you don't.

Effectively what everyone is saying is that they would reluctantly accept and support CCFC moving 90 miles away if they could make a strong enough financial case for it. Personally I wouldn't continue my support but some clearly think this would be acceptable if the reasons were good enough.

On the contrary, NOBODY is saying that.

 

[Nick]

On the contrary, NOBODY is saying that.

I think he was being sarcastic and throwing a bit of irony in there. It is no surprise people clearly miss it.

 

[Calista]

Another myth swallowed by people on here, they could have negotiated a rental deal at one of the many suitable stadiums in London if Adams Park wasn't big enough. Or they could have cut their budget accordingly to make Adams Park financially viable for them, exactly like we've had to do because of renting at the Ricoh.

Now that’s a fair argument which I can understand. They claim to have exhausted all possible avenues in London over many years, but that could be bullshit and I have no idea about the details.

Regardless, it was the original Wycombe move that made this a no-win situation. If they moved to London it would be damaging a lot of their Wycombe fans just as much (depending a bit on where you mean in London – it’s vast). I’m not just talking about getting to games, I mean the loss of their weekly junior activities etc.

And if they stayed in Wycombe, they’d be perpetuating the “franchising” move they made 12 years ago wouldn’t they – so how are you defending that? It’s not simple.

If their need to move is a “myth swallowed by many on here”, it was swallowed by the Wasps fans too. As I quoted from the Guardian, among their fans there “seemed to be a collective acceptance there are no financially viable alternatives to Wasps’ impending switch to the Ricoh Arena”. It’s a bit patronising for us to tell them they are stupid I think. Their protest were muted at best, and now they’re in Coventry their enthusiasm is remarkable.

I actually do find the Wasps’ fans reaction surprising. But they are rugby fans and we’re football fans from a different part of the world. What superior moral authority do we have to keep putting forward a case on their behalf, which most of them are NOT MAKING THEMSELVES?

Note to all - this topic definitely isn’t as important to me as my long-winded posts might suggest I just can’t see the point in unnecessarily treating Wasps (and their FANS) as the spawn of the devil, if it detracts from the best interests of CCFC, which I believe is to work with them. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Calista]

I think he was being sarcastic and throwing a bit of irony in there. It is no surprise people clearly miss it.

Fair enough, you could be right. Note to self, chill out more!

 

[Nick]

Now that’s a fair argument which I can understand. They claim to have exhausted all possible avenues in London over many years, but that could be bullshit and I have no idea about the details.

Regardless, it was the original Wycombe move that made this a no-win situation. If they moved to London it would be damaging a lot of their Wycombe fans just as much (depending a bit on where you mean in London – it’s vast). I’m not just talking about getting to games, I mean the loss of their weekly junior activities etc.

And if they stayed in Wycombe, they’d be perpetuating the “franchising” move they made 12 years ago wouldn’t they – so how are you defending that? It’s not simple.

If their need to move is a “myth swallowed by many on here”, it was swallowed by the Wasps fans too. As I quoted from the Guardian, among their fans there “seemed to be a collective acceptance there are no financially viable alternatives to Wasps’ impending switch to the Ricoh Arena”. It’s a bit patronising for us to tell them they are stupid I think. Their protest were muted at best, and now they’re in Coventry their enthusiasm is remarkable.

I actually do find the Wasps’ fans reaction surprising. But they are rugby fans and we’re football fans from a different part of the world. What superior moral authority do we have to keep putting forward a case on their behalf, which most of them are NOT MAKING THEMSELVES?

Note to all - this topic definitely isn’t as important to me as my long-winded posts might suggest I just can’t see the point in unnecessarily treating Wasps (and their FANS) as the spawn of the devil, if it detracts from the best interests of CCFC, which I believe is to work with them. Hope that makes sense.

I don't think anybody blames their fans or treats them like the spawn of the devil do they?

 

[stupot07]

The Difference between Wasps Move vs CCFC Northampton Move.....


It wasn't our club that was moved away from us.


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