chiefdave
Well-Known Member
One that states on their website 'We have considerable experience of supporting management teams through crises"
One that states on their website 'We have considerable experience of supporting management teams through crises"You know something's serious wrong when they feel the need to hire a private PR company
How does this happen? Has it improved as a business that much?The Ricoh went up in value by £11.5m and is now worth £60m as valued by a 3rd party independent valuer
Obviously good but you have to wonder how much more it can go up when we're been told for the last couple of years business is booming and there's events on practically every day.Good (for wasps)
Turnover (sales) across all group companies activities up 8.5% to £33.6m
If you look at the valuation reports they always state they have been prepared solely based on information provided by Wasps. That's always seemed suspect to me to start off with but now we have the auditors saying they were given falsified information can we expect someone to take a closer look next time round?The Ricoh went up in value by £11.5m and is now worth £60m as valued by a 3rd party independent valuer
Without the revaluation on the Ricoh they would have a negative balance sheet , which means they have more liabilities than assets
A point their supporters seem to be ignoring is that when they kept telling us it was the Ricoh or bust it was because Richardson couldn't / wouldn't keep covering losses year on year. And of course he was quick to take his money out as soon as he could. So why is everyone now so sure he will happily cover the losses. Its not like he's bother about the rugby club, remember its a 'property development business with a rugby club on the side'. Seems to me they've moved halfway across the country to be in pretty much the same situation.They have no cash in hand left. 2 years ago they had £12m cash in bank, last year £279k as of June 17 they had a £1.5m bank overdraft and a £0.5bank loan repayable over next 3 years. Richardson is now owed £12.9m up from £9.1m last year.
I can imagine some supporters would, although they issued them at peak excitement and for some the novelty will have worn off. Investors might be more wary. And of course we don't know if 6.5% but the time there is another bond issue will be attractive enough depending on how the economy in general is doing. You can't just keep issuing bonds every few years for a higher amount, at some point the house of cards collapses.They have drawn down £33.8m of the £35m raised . They are paying interest at 6.5% p.a. On this loan and like a interest only mortgage they need to pay back the balance in full by 2022. Can’t see how this will be possible without another bond issue. How likely is another bond issue to attract enough subscribers? Good question, I’ve no idea, is the answer
How does this happen? Has it improved as a business that much?
Sure that's fine, not like they've been found out for supplying falsified information.Our valuation is totally dependent on the accuracy of the information which has been supplied to us and upon assumptions set out herein. If they prove to be incorrect or inadequate the accuracy of the valuation may be affected.
Basic points from a quick glance
Good (for wasps)
- Turnover (sales) across all group companies activities up 8.5% to £33.6m
- The Ricoh went up in value by £11.5m and is now worth £60m as valued by a 3rd party independent valuer
- They made reduced loss compared with previous year of £3.8m v £6.3m
- The directors having taken legal advice don’t think sisu,s claim against them has any merit
Bad
- Having admit to issue with providing falsified documents to the auditors to try and make sales higher in the accounts. When corrected this led them to break criteria re bonds, which meant they had to get bond holder approval to change rules , which they got with no problem
- They have no cash in hand left. 2 years ago they had £12m cash in bank, last year £279k as of June 17 they had a £1.5m bank overdraft and a £0.5bank loan repayable over next 3 years. Richardson is now owed £12.9m up from £9.1m last year.
- They have drawn down £33.8m of the £35m raised . They are paying interest at 6.5% p.a. On this loan and like a interest only mortgage they need to pay back the balance in full by 2022. Can’t see how this will be possible without another bond issue. How likely is another bond issue to attract enough subscribers? Good question, I’ve no idea, is the answer
- The bond price went down around 11% today. This means people with bonds have been selling them as concerned of wasps ability to repay the bond when mature in 2022
- Current assets total £7.8 this is basically stock they hold or amounts due to be paid to them within 12months. But current liabilities are £15.6m ie amounts they are due to pay in next 12months
- Based on the fact they are making losses year on year and the above they are only being allowed to carry on trading due to support from the shareholders. (Basically richardson, bit like with ccfc sisu promising to cover funding shortfallls to keep the business running
- Without the revaluation on the Ricoh they would have a negative balance sheet , which means they have more liabilities than assets
- They incurred £300k of costs investigating the audit evidence issue, and legal costs re the court case from sisu
To sum up, they increased sales, so could argue are growing as a business but still making losses. Cash flow must start to be an issue as no longer have and cash in hand and rely on overdraft bank loans and owner putting money in. The major question mark is what happens in 2022 regarding how they repay the bonds.
You know something's serious wrong when they feel the need to hire a private PR company....
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How is the Ricoh worth £60m? ACL and IEC turnover both down isn't it?Basic points from a quick glance
Good (for wasps)
- Turnover (sales) across all group companies activities up 8.5% to £33.6m
- The Ricoh went up in value by £11.5m and is now worth £60m as valued by a 3rd party independent valuer
- They made reduced loss compared with previous year of £3.8m v £6.3m
- The directors having taken legal advice don’t think sisu,s claim against them has any merit
Bad
- Having admit to issue with providing falsified documents to the auditors to try and make sales higher in the accounts. When corrected this led them to break criteria re bonds, which meant they had to get bond holder approval to change rules , which they got with no problem
- They have no cash in hand left. 2 years ago they had £12m cash in bank, last year £279k as of June 17 they had a £1.5m bank overdraft and a £0.5bank loan repayable over next 3 years. Richardson is now owed £12.9m up from £9.1m last year.
- They have drawn down £33.8m of the £35m raised . They are paying interest at 6.5% p.a. On this loan and like a interest only mortgage they need to pay back the balance in full by 2022. Can’t see how this will be possible without another bond issue. How likely is another bond issue to attract enough subscribers? Good question, I’ve no idea, is the answer
- The bond price went down around 11% today. This means people with bonds have been selling them as concerned of wasps ability to repay the bond when mature in 2022
- Current assets total £7.8 this is basically stock they hold or amounts due to be paid to them within 12months. But current liabilities are £15.6m ie amounts they are due to pay in next 12months
- Based on the fact they are making losses year on year and the above they are only being allowed to carry on trading due to support from the shareholders. (Basically richardson, bit like with ccfc sisu promising to cover funding shortfallls to keep the business running
- Without the revaluation on the Ricoh they would have a negative balance sheet , which means they have more liabilities than assets
- They incurred £300k of costs investigating the audit evidence issue, and legal costs re the court case from sisu
To sum up, they increased sales, so could argue are growing as a business but still making losses. Cash flow must start to be an issue as no longer have and cash in hand and rely on overdraft bank loans and owner putting money in. The major question mark is what happens in 2022 regarding how they repay the bonds.
But at the moment its losing money. Does it really matter how much it generates if year on year there's a loss?Another way to look at the valuation is to think if they have the right to use the stadium for the next 234 (or something like that) then how much money are they going to be able generate from that. In my mind when looking at is this way £60m doesn’t look so high
Wasps paid a tenth of that!But at the moment its losing money. Does it really matter how much it generates if year on year there's a loss?
The thing that makes no sense to me, besides the way the value conveniently goes up by just the amount Wasps need it to every time there's a valuation, is that its security for the bonds. By definition the security only comes in to play if its gone tits up for Wasps. At that point what use is a valuation based on the current tenants of the stadium?
Appreciate we had the 'no one will buy it' line before but if its basically gone bust can you se people queuing up to pay £60m?
It's quite funny reading their reactions, they are more bothered about people on here pointing out they have falsified accounts than the fact they have done it or that they had to try and mislead bond holders.
As long as they still get little plastic flags to wave I'm sure they don't mind. Must be a PR companies dream.
It's all well and good them slating here, it looks like half of their posters are the people pushing things that tried to on here and even then it's dead.
Should try and get their emails to tell them about my cousin needing a bank account for his millions.
It's like italia has brain washed them.
I think what you are saying, in a roundabout verbal sound off, is that they are not bothered.
In fact as reader of both forums it's laughable that the only people concerned are on here.
Yes it's difficult, but what do people expect from taking on a massive undertaking like they have.
No, early days in world dominance, but a great start and another year of progress.
they were trying to cook the bombs and give false information when pulled on it to auditors.
Ha I spotted the auto correct and changed it.Looks like it's blown up in their face now!
I think what you are saying, in a roundabout verbal sound off, is that they are not bothered.
In fact as reader of both forums it's laughable that the only people concerned are on here.
Yes it's difficult, but what do people expect from taking on a massive undertaking like they have.
No, early days in world dominance, but a great start and another year of progress.
In truth I find it a little odd that there are so few people holding Wasps up to scrutiny.
Again, imagine the reaction on the CET and here if our owners got pulled up by the auditors for falsifying statements.
It's not 'difficult' to represent a true picture to the auditors and the bond-holders, but it is damned inconvenient if the truth shows that everything isn't as healthy as you've been pretending.
They've been caught out, good and proper, Their solution seems to be to change auditors, Perhaps they are hoping the next lot are a bit less diligent in their checks or a bit more flexible with the truth...
It's not guess work is it?Why are you bothered?
It's all guesswork based on the best route to Wasps demise.
Surely Sisu is our problem.
We know they've tried falsifying information and got caught but are you now saying the accounts are all guesswork?It's all guesswork
I think what you are saying, in a roundabout verbal sound off, is that they are not bothered.
In fact as reader of both forums it's laughable that the only people concerned are on here.
Yes it's difficult, but what do people expect from taking on a massive undertaking like they have.
No, early days in world dominance, but a great start and another year of progress.
Basic points from a quick glance
Good (for wasps)
- Turnover (sales) across all group companies activities up 8.5% to £33.6m
- The Ricoh went up in value by £11.5m and is now worth £60m as valued by a 3rd party independent valuer
- They made reduced loss compared with previous year of £3.8m v £6.3m
- The directors having taken legal advice don’t think sisu,s claim against them has any merit
Bad
- Having admit to issue with providing falsified documents to the auditors to try and make sales higher in the accounts. When corrected this led them to break criteria re bonds, which meant they had to get bond holder approval to change rules , which they got with no problem
- They have no cash in hand left. 2 years ago they had £12m cash in bank, last year £279k as of June 17 they had a £1.5m bank overdraft and a £0.5bank loan repayable over next 3 years. Richardson is now owed £12.9m up from £9.1m last year.
- They have drawn down £33.8m of the £35m raised . They are paying interest at 6.5% p.a. On this loan and like a interest only mortgage they need to pay back the balance in full by 2022. Can’t see how this will be possible without another bond issue. How likely is another bond issue to attract enough subscribers? Good question, I’ve no idea, is the answer
- The bond price went down around 11% today. This means people with bonds have been selling them as concerned of wasps ability to repay the bond when mature in 2022
- Current assets total £7.8 this is basically stock they hold or amounts due to be paid to them within 12months. But current liabilities are £15.6m ie amounts they are due to pay in next 12months
- Based on the fact they are making losses year on year and the above they are only being allowed to carry on trading due to support from the shareholders. (Basically richardson, bit like with ccfc sisu promising to cover funding shortfallls to keep the business running
- Without the revaluation on the Ricoh they would have a negative balance sheet , which means they have more liabilities than assets
- They incurred £300k of costs investigating the audit evidence issue, and legal costs re the court case from sisu
To sum up, they increased sales, so could argue are growing as a business but still making losses. Cash flow must start to be an issue as no longer have and cash in hand and rely on overdraft bank loans and owner putting money in. The major question mark is what happens in 2022 regarding how they repay the bonds.
Why are you bothered?
It's all guesswork based on the best route to Wasps demise.
Surely Sisu is our problem.
But there is no surprise that there has hardly been any scrutiny. Most were more interested in the politics of them getting the arena than anything else.In truth I find it a little odd that there are so few people holding Wasps up to scrutiny.
Again, imagine the reaction on the CET and here if our owners got pulled up by the auditors for falsifying statements.
It's not 'difficult' to represent a true picture to the auditors and the bond-holders, but it is damned inconvenient if the truth shows that everything isn't as healthy as you've been pretending.
They've been caught out, good and proper, Their solution seems to be to change auditors, Perhaps they are hoping the next lot are a bit less diligent in their checks or a bit more flexible with the truth...
The thing that makes no sense to me, besides the way the value conveniently goes up by just the amount Wasps need it to every time there's a valuation
We probably shouldn't read too much into all this financial stuff. There are tax reasons for minimising reported profit (and that includes reporting a loss). I imagine a rip glaringly profitable operation would strengthen SISU's perceived case against everyone else in the West Midlands.
So no need to panic say I.
According a Wasps fan, they are underplaying the accounts because if they reported a profitable operation it would strengthen SISU's case.
It's like listening to the shit Italia comes up with.
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