Wasps current finances & hope (2 Viewers)

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
The financials. Will summarise then make a few points

Turnover up - improved
Gross Profit up - improved
Gross margin up - improved
other income up - improved
administrative expenses down - improved
Operating profit before exceptional & other shareholders 2017 £499K loss 2016 £3.772m - improved
exceptional costs down - improved
operating loss 2017 £1.384m 2016 loss £6.212m - improved
Finance costs down - improved
loss for year 2017 £3.809 2016 £6.370 - improved
Lease value up - improved
Stocks up - positive possibly but is cash tied up
trade and other debtors up - positive but is better in cash
Loans & borrowings up - negative
deferred tax up - only a negative if lease actually sold at that value it isnt payable otherwise
deferred income long term down - could be positive or negative
trade creditors and other creditors down - positive
current loans and borrowing up - negative
deferred income current up - could be positive
Cash flow shows 1.5m deficit 2017 in 2016 £279 surplus - negative

Looked at it like that then still heading right direction

Forget the fingers being pointed at the audit report most of those comparatives are positive. The key one however is the last one which shows a squeeze on cash flow. (however we know that the shareholder has put in £1.1m). That is their biggest problem, cash flow, that will be softened by the shareholder having make sure enough is kept on deposit for interest payments if the company cant, under the new bond terms

Revenue in total is up. But some areas show there is still room for improvement. This seasons crowds have dropped off and they havent got a home semi final so there will be some revenue to catch up in 2018. Central distributions from RFU have gone up 1.1m this year The Ricoh deal was a rolling deal it is now a two year deal so thats money they can rely on.

Wage costs are down basically less employees.

in the year they spent 1.64m on fixed assets mainly furniture fittings & equipment

The debtor book has grown - so they are owed 600K more than last year

Borrowings are up 5.2m . The Bond has not changed Richardson put it 3.8m the rest mainly over draft facilities

Creditors are down 2.9m mainly because trade creditors & accruals have fallen but what is owed to HMRC has doubled

Make of it what you will but whilst I think they are finding it tight they are not about to go bust any time soon whilst Richardson is prepared to stump up. Following the new bond agreement then even the pressure on interest payments would appear lessened and the basis of calculation of the EBITDA covenant has been relaxed to include shareholder contributions will ease the pressure too. Their biggest issue is cash flow same as many sports clubs, but ...............

Final thought, they need cash flow, they now have a tenant who has no obvious alternative ground option in Coventry, who it is common knowledge have expectations of sizeable transfer funds (Maddison Wilson etc) who are still taking them to court.........................
 

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Moff

Well-Known Member
It's the mobile internet. You don't need to be in your bedroom to post.
You thought it was a serious comment ? Wow
Depends how big your writing is not how big the stamp is.

I was out having a life you dick, if you can't leave the Internet alone mobile or not to post your drivel then I suggest once again to get a life.
I don't post in my bedroom but the fact it's something you suggest says more about you than me.
I didn't think your comment was serious I didn't understand it, no one seems to, it didn't make sense.
I suppose you could write a lot on a stamp if your writing is as small as your wit and intelligence on this matter.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
That's before they moved from Wycombe.
Obviously reverting back to just Wasps makes them more transportable.

Saracens and Harlequins next ?

Like if the Ricoh starts to turn into a money pit and Richardson finds another desperate council to help him out?
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Make of it what you will but whilst I think they are finding it tight they are not about to go bust any time soon whilst Richardson is prepared to stump up. Following the n
That seems to be the key. I think its debatable now much room for improvement there is in a lot of the other numbers. We're told business is fantastic and there are events practically every day. There will be a ceiling that will be reached and in my opinion they are pretty much at that.

Given that they were moved across the country as their owner didn't want to keep covering losses if I was a fan I wouldn't be too confident he's going to keep on doing that if he doesn't see a return down the line.

One questions. It was said elsewhere that the bond money is now gone and they are borrowing from the owner and other sources. Doesn't that mean they now also need to cover the interest payments to stand still?
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
I was out having a life you dick, if you can't leave the Internet alone mobile or not to post your drivel then I suggest once again to get a life.
I don't post in my bedroom but the fact it's something you suggest says more about you than me.
I didn't think your comment was serious I didn't understand it, no one seems to, it didn't make sense.
I suppose you could write a lot on a stamp if your writing is as small as your wit and intelligence on this matter.

Getting this life seems to make you miserable. ;)
I'm retired so my life is one big holiday.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
The financials. Will summarise then make a few points

Turnover up - improved
Gross Profit up - improved
other income up - improved
administrative expenses down - improved
Operating profit before exceptional & other shareholders 2017 £499K loss 2016 £3.772m - improved
exceptional costs down - improved
operating loss 2017 £1.384m 2016 loss £6.212m - improved
Finance costs down - improved
loss for year 2017 £3.809 2016 £6.370 - improved
Lease value up - improved
Stocks up - positive possibly but is cash tied up
trade and other debtors up - positive but is better in cash
Loans & borrowings up - negative
deferred tax up - only a negative if lease actually sold at that value it isnt payable otherwise
deferred income long term down - could be positive or negative
trade creditors and other creditors down - positive
current loans and borrowing up - negative
deferred income current up - could be positive
Cash flow shows 1.5m deficit 2017 in 2016 £279 surplus - negative

Forget the fingers being pointed at the audit report most of those comparatives are positive. The key one however is the last one which shows a squeeze on cash flow. (however we know that the shareholder has put in £1.1m). That is their biggest problem, cash flow, that will be softened by the shareholder having make sure enough is kept on deposit for interest payments if the company cant, under the new bond terms

Revenue in total is up. But some areas show there is still room for improvement. This seasons crowds have dropped off and they havent got a home semi final so there will be some revenue to catch up in 2018. Central distributions from RFU have gone up 1.1m this year The Ricoh deal was a rolling deal it is now a two year deal so thats money they can rely on.

Wage costs are down basically less employees.

in the year they spent 1.64m on fixed assets mainly furniture fittings & equipment

The debtor book has grown - so they are owed 600K more than last year

Borrowings are up 5.2m . The Bond has not changed Richardson put it 3.8m the rest mainly over draft facilities

Creditors are down 2.9m mainly because trade creditors & accruals have fallen but what is owed to HMRC has doubled

Make of it what you will but whilst I think they are finding it tight they are not about to go bust any time soon whilst Richardson is prepared to stump up. Following the new bond agreement then even the pressure on interest payments would appear lessened and the basis of calculation of the EBITDA covenant has been relaxed to include shareholder contributions will ease the pressure too. Their biggest issue is cash flow same as many sports clubs, but ...............

Final thought, they need cash flow, they now have a tenant who has no obvious alternative ground option in Coventry, who it is common knowledge have expectations of sizeable transfer funds (Maddison Wilson etc) who are still taking them to court.........................

What you are really saying is the only way they will be able to sustain the business is if the owner funds losses.

The stadium returns for non sport related events are not good and never will be. You wouldn’t locate an exhibition / concert hall next to a big rival like the NEC if you wanted any returns of significance. Repair costs will become an issue.

You assume Richardson moved here for two reasons:

Increased profitability and less reliance on him to support the project
A growth in image and increased success on the field

The attempt to attract their desired sponsor exposed how absurd they overvalued themselves.

Wasps are like the working class lottery winner who turns up to a five star resort — they don’t fit in

Will the owner in the end change his objectives and continue to put money into a brand that’s of little significance even in the sport it operates in let alone beyond?

Only time will tell
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
One questions. It was said elsewhere that the bond money is now gone and they are borrowing from the owner and other sources. Doesn't that mean they now also need to cover the interest payments to stand still?

There is room for improvement .... whether they can or not I don't know.

As for the interest on the shareholder loan then that seems to have been waived and written off each year.

The direction of travel has been towards breakeven so far as a group.... I would think 2018 has been harder.
 

Moff

Well-Known Member
Getting this life seems to make you miserable. ;)
I'm retired so my life is one big holiday.

I'm not miserable, couldn't be happier, I just pity half wits.

I'm retired too, if your memory was what it was you would recall discussing the fact I did at an earlier age than you.
Sounds like you need to engage your brain a bit more as it's lack of action is affecting your memory. ;)
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
I'm not miserable, couldn't be happier, I just pity half wits.

I'm retired too, if your memory was what it was you would recall discussing the fact I did at an earlier age than you.
Sounds like you need to engage your brain a bit more as it's lack of action is affecting your memory. ;)
Sorry I forgot you beat me to retirement :)
I'm pretty consistent on my thoughts though.
CCFC need Wasps at the moment, them not being here won't work.
We won't reap the full benefits though while Sisu are here or as a minimum they stop fighting everybody that can help CCFC.
 

Terry Gibson's perm

Well-Known Member
That’s two minutes of my life I’m never getting back reading that rubbish, what were the issues with planning?
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
Worth a read from a Wasps employee giving it the "nothing to see here"? OK then.

I'd say straight up ignoring anything is a repeat of the ACL stuff.

Ex Wasps employee.
Its called applying common sense and looking past Wasps at the Ricoh to see the full picture.
We need to work with them.
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
That’s two minutes of my life I’m never getting back reading that rubbish, what were the issues with planning?
No idea, but Higgs was never really suitable for either CCFC or Wasps training grounds in my mind.
Too easy access for public and too small.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
No idea, but Higgs was never really suitable for either CCFC or Wasps training grounds in my mind.
Too easy access for public and too small.

You said previously it was big enough for both clubs.
 

Moff

Well-Known Member
No idea, but Higgs was never really suitable for either CCFC or Wasps training grounds in my mind.
Too easy access for public and too small.

If that was the case why did Wasps have it as their number one choice? and plans were afoot to build their training ground at this location.

Further to this if it is too small why didn't Wasps choose another of the locations they have looked at? and why have they not chosen a new site since pulling out of the Higgs?

This argument does seem a little convenient and masks over the fact that Wasps are still borrowing a local amateur clubs facilities, and are no further forward in building their own training facility.
Is this poor management, poor planning, or financial issues? I would hazard all three.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
If that was the case why did Wasps have it as their number one choice? and plans were afoot to build their training ground at this location.

Further to this if it is too small why didn't Wasps choose another of the locations they have looked at? and why have they not chosen a new site since pulling out of the Higgs?

This argument does seem a little convenient and masks over the fact that Wasps are still borrowing a local amateur clubs facilities, and are no further forward in building their own training facility.
Is this poor management, poor planning, or financial issues? I would hazard all three.

Why did they spend an not insignificant sum on planning consultancy if it was always too small? Surely the planners would have advised that from the beginning.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
Personally I think there is some truth in the middle ground.

Wasps financials should not simply be ignored (as has been the case so far with the CT) but equally the "analysis" done by Reid though having some technical correctness is unbalanced and misleading designed to cause damage, there appears to have an agenda to it. Somewhere between the two lays useful detail

The finances of both clubs. Wasps or CCFC should be questioned and analysed in a balanced manner. People want to know what is really happening to the team they follow. Both local papers in my opinion have failed consistently over many years to really deal with the issues, preferring to cover themselves in perceived and fleeting glory of ,ultimately, inconsequential campaigns

We are never going to get all the details from either club. Bottom line is that both teams are improving but both are vulnerable. Things have not gone to plan for either on some things.

Yes Wasps plans for a training ground have not gone to plan. It would seem CCFC plans for an alternative home ground have not gone to plan either. Wasps have had problems with auditors (one to my mind serious but it will pass in time) we are told CCFC are closing in on new training facilities but nothing actually signed...... so it goes on

We are being played by PR on both/all sides.

Personally my take is that Wasps are continuing to improve but there have been problems along the way, and currently the cash flow is very tight. Similarly the situation at CCFC continues to improve in that the club is more positive in outlook because the team is doing better but some big issues remain unresolved. Both teams rely on their owners to exist, that has been known for years, no great revelation. I do not see imminent doom for either Wasps or CCFC
 

Nick

Administrator
Personally I think there is some truth in the middle ground.

Wasps financials should not simply be ignored (as has been the case so far with the CT) but equally the "analysis" done by Reid though having some technical correctness is unbalanced and misleading designed to cause damage, there appears to have an agenda to it. Somewhere between the two lays useful detail

The finances of both clubs. Wasps or CCFC should be questioned and analysed in a balanced manner. People want to know what is really happening to the team they follow. Both local papers in my opinion have failed consistently over many years to really deal with the issues, preferring to cover themselves in perceived and fleeting glory of ,ultimately, inconsequential campaigns

We are never going to get all the details from either club. Bottom line is that both teams are improving but both are vulnerable. Things have not gone to plan for either on some things.

Yes Wasps plans for a training ground have not gone to plan. It would seem CCFC plans for an alternative home ground have not gone to plan either. Wasps have had problems with auditors (one to my mind serious but it will pass in time) we are told CCFC are closing in on new training facilities but nothing actually signed...... so it goes on

We are being played by PR on both/all sides.

Personally my take is that Wasps are continuing to improve but there have been problems along the way, and currently the cash flow is very tight. Similarly the situation at CCFC continues to improve in that the club is more positive in outlook because the team is doing better but some big issues remain unresolved. Both teams rely on their owners to exist, that has been known for years, no great revelation. I do not see imminent doom for either Wasps or CCFC

Didn't Wasps dub the move to make them the richest in Europe and to get away from relying on the other?

Is the home ground really comparable to the Higgs training centre?

I bet they do hope the statement from the auditors pass with time, that's why it's trying to be ignored / swept away as quickly as possible.
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
Why did they spend an not insignificant sum on planning consultancy if it was always too small? Surely the planners would have advised that from the beginning.

It’s just my opinion.
It’s probably financial reasons or perhaps where they are now is okay and gives them more time to sort out a more suitable site.


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italiahorse

Well-Known Member
Didn't Wasps dub the move to make them the richest in Europe and to get away from relying on the other?

Is the home ground really comparable to the Higgs training centre?

I bet they do hope the statement from the auditors pass with time, that's why it's trying to be ignored / swept away as quickly as possible.

That’s the goal but it don’t happen overnight. Probably a bit of PR to sell the shares as well.
Nice to know what Sisu intent is even if it’s PR.


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Nick

Administrator
It’s just my opinion.
It’s probably financial reasons or perhaps where they are now is okay and gives them more time to sort out a more suitable site.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But the Higgs was the most suitable out of 17 sites they looked at before?
 

Nick

Administrator
That’s the goal but it don’t happen overnight. Probably a bit of PR to sell the shares as well.
Nice to know what Sisu intent is even if it’s PR.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It was within months in 2015.

Maybe it was just a lie... Fisheresque.
 

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